A curious outlook on self-defense learning

[Gerry Seymour]

I reckon the chin would go up more often than down. Instinctively.

I've seen both. I think part of the differentiation is how much they fear getting hit. Someone who doesn't want to get hit, oddly, is more likely to raise the chin as they instinctively try to keep their head further from harm. As you said, any reasonable training is likely to stop that from happening. I'd think chin-down is more a posture of attack, given an individual who expects he can actually win (so less fear of getting hit).

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. I've trained with folks who worked that sort of job. They don't need as much of some of the skills I do, and more of other skills. The physical framework is very similar, but the choices are more narrow when you're on the job.

Different sides of a coin. There are elements either way. Bouncers get attacked and robbed about as much as everyone else. It is not that you become immune to that because of your profession.

This one happened to a friend for mine a while back.

Attacker sent to jail

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Different sides of a coin. There are elements either way. Bouncers get attacked and robbed about as much as everyone else. It is not that you become immune to that because of your profession.

This one happened to a friend for mine a while back.

Attacker sent to jail

That's a valid point. I would assume that most folks who train to become better bouncers would also want to train for self-defense. Assuming that, if I were putting together a training plan for someone who was a bouncer, I'd want to include both. Of course, if I was putting together a plan specifically to help train bouncers to be better bouncers, I'd leave out a few things and focus more on some others to tailor it to their needs.

 

[JP3]

I would disagree on this, as there are nearly always signs you can look for in terms of people's body language and circumstances that can tip you off, you just have to know what to look for. It's not like a person is standing completely motionless and expressionless and then suddenly attacks you. The signs are there if you know what to look for, but the problem is that most people don't know what to look for and are rubbish at reading body language. You get the same thing when dealing with animals. A lot of uninformed people think that animals attack without warning, when this simply isn't true. All predators displays signs of intent before they attack, you just have to know what to look for. In all of this I am reminded of a recent situation at the pool I work at. There were this group of youths in the pool causing trouble for most of the day so we (the lifeguards) told them to leave. They got angry and started shouting insults, cussing and telling us to fight them. I watched the exchange between one of the youths and one of our lifeguards who was really going at it, and could see that no matter what they said they would never have started a fight, purely from looking at his body language. If he had changed his body language and gone into a more predatory mode, I would have seen it and stepped in, but he didn't and soon after he and his friends left.

Learning to read body language is a very important skill that is sadly overlooked by most people, who rely on their ears rather than their eyes to give them the information.

.

And I in turn disagree with the conclusion you've reached, in that while I do agree with the premise that the person in the predator role always gives a sign that they are going to attack, the person in the prey role may not be given a chance to see it approaching, i.e. mugging, elevator attack, surprised for whatever reason walking alone. I'm not saying that these people perhaps "should" have seen it, but they didn't for whatever reason, perhaps the skill of the predator, perhaps their own lack of awareness... but they didn't see it.

And Drop, you made me laugh. It is much more fun to flip the roles and take off the Clark kent Prey Shirt and expose the Superman predator outfit, ain't it.

Sucker punching is a pain in the ***. Especially when it's not from the guy in front of you who you "thought" was the problem, but his buddy you didn't SEE behind you, and for whom you didn't have backup at that instant.

 

[drop bear]

.

And I in turn disagree with the conclusion you've reached, in that while I do agree with the premise that the person in the predator role always gives a sign that they are going to attack, the person in the prey role may not be given a chance to see it approaching, i.e. mugging, elevator attack, surprised for whatever reason walking alone. I'm not saying that these people perhaps "should" have seen it, but they didn't for whatever reason, perhaps the skill of the predator, perhaps their own lack of awareness... but they didn't see it.

And Drop, you made me laugh. It is much more fun to flip the roles and take off the Clark kent Prey Shirt and expose the Superman predator outfit, ain't it.

Sucker punching is a pain in the ***. Especially when it's not from the guy in front of you who you "thought" was the problem, but his buddy you didn't SEE behind you, and for whom you didn't have backup at that instant.

Well as far as the signs of aggression go. You would really want to make sure they are right. Because if you are looking for A and they do B you have lost a second there.

Otherwise i have been caught out too many times to have a lot of faith in these signs of attack. And move more towards trying to give myself a bit more time and space to react.

The tunnel scene from ronin is the best example. You may not spot an ambush but you at least know how to avoid the situation.

And none of that is really super secret martial arts. You can find risk assessment tools on the net.

Here is the state emergency service one which is pretty good.

Risk assessment — Victoria State Emergency Service

And is a handier method to follow than the signs of aggression. Which seem to consist of if they have throbbing veins,eyes popping out and are screaming death at you. They may be about to engage in violence.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

.

And I in turn disagree with the conclusion you've reached, in that while I do agree with the premise that the person in the predator role always gives a sign that they are going to attack, the person in the prey role may not be given a chance to see it approaching, i.e. mugging, elevator attack, surprised for whatever reason walking alone. I'm not saying that these people perhaps "should" have seen it, but they didn't for whatever reason, perhaps the skill of the predator, perhaps their own lack of awareness... but they didn't see it.

And Drop, you made me laugh. It is much more fun to flip the roles and take off the Clark kent Prey Shirt and expose the Superman predator outfit, ain't it.

Sucker punching is a pain in the ***. Especially when it's not from the guy in front of you who you "thought" was the problem, but his buddy you didn't SEE behind you, and for whom you didn't have backup at that instant.

And here we get the biggest problem with self defense. It doesn't matter how much training you've had or how many techniques you know, they are all worthless if you don't see the attack coming.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And here we get the biggest problem with self defense. It doesn't matter how much training you've had or how many techniques you know, they are all worthless if you don't see the attack coming.

That's not a problem with self-defense. It's a human limitation. If you don't see, you're not defending, at all. That's why situational recognition (bad places, knowing your blind spots, cues from people, etc.) are so important.

 

[Paul_D]

Regarding the discussion on whether or not there will be signs of an impending attack, whilst there will on some occasions be signs (for example Eye Contact Challengers) for the most part experienced criminals will use the three of the four D’s (Dialogue, Deception and Distraction) and to lull you into a false sense of security before they utilise the fourth D (Destruction).

In other words, they will go out of their way to do as much as possible to hide their intentions and not give any signs of what they intend as this greatly increases there chances of success.

Ted Bundy:- Bundy, a good-looking, intelligent law student, learned to lure women into his car by various forms of deception. He would put a cast on his arm or leg, then walk across a university campus carrying several books. When he saw an interesting coed standing or walking alone, he’d “accidentally” drop the books near her. The girl would help him gather them and take them to his car.

“They liked me because I was so harmless. I carried one woman’s shopping home. I lifted her baby out of the stroller and smashed its head in to a tree. Then I raped and strangled her mother “. Michael Ross, American serial killer/rapist.

“Who’d have thought a one-legged man could hurt anyone? Julie thought I was harmless – took pity on me…then I smashed her head in with a ball pin hammer” Michael Samms, serving life for the murder of Julie Dart and the abduction of Stephanie Slater.

The following are from interviews with both criminals and victims from the case studies section of Dead or Alive: The Definitive Self Protection Handbook:-

“We ask them the time. This distracts them while we pull out our knives”. Mugger serving 5 years for robbery with violence

“There was the barman. He grassed on me out the law about the glassing so he had to have some as well. I heard he was a bit of a Karate man so I didn’t take any chances. I walked in to the bat first thing in the morning, while it was quiet, less witnesses see. When he seen me he said I was barred, I said “Look man, I don’t want any grief with you. I know you can motor (fight), I just want to tell you that there is no hard feelings on my part, let’s shake on it”. lovely wanker feel for it. As he grabbed my right hand to shake it I pulled him hard into me and stabbed him right in the kidneys”.

Interview with “Steve”, convicted of Gratuitous assault

“Two men asked me for the time. I was laden with shopping so I put the bags on the floor to look at my watch. Suddenly I felt an awful wrench on my arm, the next thing I knew these two men had run off with my shopping and my watch” - Mary.

This in some part brings us back to the topic of the thread. Male martial artist are mostly only worried about getting into a fights as they are unlikely to be targeted by murders, rapists, or muggers.

They then mistake getting into a street fight or a drunken pub brawl with Self Defence, and also mistakenly beleive that the violence they will face if they are mugged will be the same as if they got into a fight, and then they believe that the fighting skills they learn in the dojo are the answer to the realities of civilian violence.

For example, the person in the video the OP posted talks uses the term “Self Defence” in the title of his video and then proceeds to talk for almost 8 minutes about street fighting and sparring and martial arts, and doesn’t talk about once about self defence. Clearly he has mistaken getting into bar brawls and street fights with self defence and does not have the slightest clue of the realities of civilian violence as it pertains to Self Protection.

Worse than that he is, like many on this forum, ONLY able to see self defence as "men getting into fights with each other".

 

[drop bear]

Regarding the discussion on whether or not there will be signs of an impending attack, whilst there will on some occasions be signs (for example Eye Contact Challengers) for the most part experienced criminals will use the three of the four D’s (Dialogue, Deception and Distraction) and to lull you into a false sense of security before they utilise the fourth D (Destruction).

In other words, they will go out of their way to do as much as possible to hide their intentions and not give any signs of what they intend as this greatly increases there chances of success.

Ted Bundy:- Bundy, a good-looking, intelligent law student, learned to lure women into his car by various forms of deception. He would put a cast on his arm or leg, then walk across a university campus carrying several books. When he saw an interesting coed standing or walking alone, he’d “accidentally” drop the books near her. The girl would help him gather them and take them to his car.

“They liked me because I was so harmless. I carried one woman’s shopping home. I lifted her baby out of the stroller and smashed its head in to a tree. Then I raped and strangled her mother “. Michael Ross, American serial killer/rapist.

“Who’d have thought a one-legged man could hurt anyone? Julie thought I was harmless – took pity on me…then I smashed her head in with a ball pin hammer” Michael Samms, serving life for the murder of Julie Dart and the abduction of Stephanie Slater.

The following are from interviews with both criminals and victims from the case studies section of Dead or Alive: The Definitive Self Protection Handbook:-

“We ask them the time. This distracts them while we pull out our knives”. Mugger serving 5 years for robbery with violence

“There was the barman. He grassed on me out the law about the glassing so he had to have some as well. I heard he was a bit of a Karate man so I didn’t take any chances. I walked in to the bat first thing in the morning, while it was quiet, less witnesses see. When he seen me he said I was barred, I said “Look man, I don’t want any grief with you. I know you can motor (fight), I just want to tell you that there is no hard feelings on my part, let’s shake on it”. lovely wanker feel for it. As he grabbed my right hand to shake it I pulled him hard into me and stabbed him right in the kidneys”.

Interview with “Steve”, convicted of Gratuitous assault

“Two men asked me for the time. I was laden with shopping so I put the bags on the floor to look at my watch. Suddenly I felt an awful wrench on my arm, the next thing I knew these two men had run off with my shopping and my watch” - Mary.

This in some part brings us back to the topic of the thread. Male martial artist are mostly only worried about getting into a fights as they are unlikely to be targeted by murders, rapists, or muggers.

They then mistake getting into a street fight or a drunken pub brawl with Self Defence, and also mistakenly beleive that the violence they will face if they are mugged will be the same as if they got into a fight, and then they believe that the fighting skills they learn in the dojo are the answer to the realities of civilian violence.

For example, the person in the video the OP posted talks uses the term “Self Defence” in the title of his video and then proceeds to talk for almost 8 minutes about street fighting and sparring and martial arts, and doesn’t talk about once about self defence. Clearly he has mistaken getting into bar brawls and street fights with self defence and does not have the slightest clue of the realities of civilian violence as it pertains to Self Protection.

Worse than that he is, like many on this forum, ONLY able to see self defence as "men getting into fights with each other".

The principles are still quite often the same. In sparring and manly fights you should learn concepts of range. Where you are safe and where you are not. In self defence these ranges become your pre aggression tools.

So one of the first rules of fighting is if you are in range of the other guy and you are not effectively hitting them. You are in danger.

You go back to basic risk management and the first rule is avoid that situation.

This is also a fighting rule. First rule of defending underhooks. Is don't get underhooks.

They all overlap if you know where to look. The advantage of looking at the situation in that manner is you actually have a tested method to go off and so don't fall in to the story trap.

The fence while a good way to reduce a threat is not a good place in which to stay.

Too many people think they are protected here. Where understanding fighting will tell you that you are not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Regarding the discussion on whether or not there will be signs of an impending attack, whilst there will on some occasions be signs (for example Eye Contact Challengers) for the most part experienced criminals will use the three of the four D’s (Dialogue, Deception and Distraction) and to lull you into a false sense of security before they utilise the fourth D (Destruction).

In other words, they will go out of their way to do as much as possible to hide their intentions and not give any signs of what they intend as this greatly increases there chances of success.

Ted Bundy:- Bundy, a good-looking, intelligent law student, learned to lure women into his car by various forms of deception. He would put a cast on his arm or leg, then walk across a university campus carrying several books. When he saw an interesting coed standing or walking alone, he’d “accidentally” drop the books near her. The girl would help him gather them and take them to his car.

“They liked me because I was so harmless. I carried one woman’s shopping home. I lifted her baby out of the stroller and smashed its head in to a tree. Then I raped and strangled her mother “. Michael Ross, American serial killer/rapist.

“Who’d have thought a one-legged man could hurt anyone? Julie thought I was harmless – took pity on me…then I smashed her head in with a ball pin hammer” Michael Samms, serving life for the murder of Julie Dart and the abduction of Stephanie Slater.

The following are from interviews with both criminals and victims from the case studies section of Dead or Alive: The Definitive Self Protection Handbook:-

“We ask them the time. This distracts them while we pull out our knives”. Mugger serving 5 years for robbery with violence

“There was the barman. He grassed on me out the law about the glassing so he had to have some as well. I heard he was a bit of a Karate man so I didn’t take any chances. I walked in to the bat first thing in the morning, while it was quiet, less witnesses see. When he seen me he said I was barred, I said “Look man, I don’t want any grief with you. I know you can motor (fight), I just want to tell you that there is no hard feelings on my part, let’s shake on it”. lovely wanker feel for it. As he grabbed my right hand to shake it I pulled him hard into me and stabbed him right in the kidneys”.

Interview with “Steve”, convicted of Gratuitous assault

“Two men asked me for the time. I was laden with shopping so I put the bags on the floor to look at my watch. Suddenly I felt an awful wrench on my arm, the next thing I knew these two men had run off with my shopping and my watch” - Mary.

This in some part brings us back to the topic of the thread. Male martial artist are mostly only worried about getting into a fights as they are unlikely to be targeted by murders, rapists, or muggers.

They then mistake getting into a street fight or a drunken pub brawl with Self Defence, and also mistakenly beleive that the violence they will face if they are mugged will be the same as if they got into a fight, and then they believe that the fighting skills they learn in the dojo are the answer to the realities of civilian violence.

For example, the person in the video the OP posted talks uses the term “Self Defence” in the title of his video and then proceeds to talk for almost 8 minutes about street fighting and sparring and martial arts, and doesn’t talk about once about self defence. Clearly he has mistaken getting into bar brawls and street fights with self defence and does not have the slightest clue of the realities of civilian violence as it pertains to Self Protection.

Worse than that he is, like many on this forum, ONLY able to see self defence as "men getting into fights with each other".

Two points on this.

First, using psychopaths and sociopaths as examples does not disprove the rule. They are outside the norm by a wide margin. They don't show normal cues because they don't experience normal empathy and/or normal emotional range, and the cues we look for are predicated on both.

Second, just because a criminal is trying to deceive, that doesn't mean they don't give cues. There are cues that can indicate lying - situation where someone is deliberately trying to not look like they are lying.

Thirdly, you have a good point. Not all people will supply the cues we look for. Some will supply different cues, and some (psychopaths) may not supply any useful cues, at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The principles are still quite often the same. In sparring and manly fights you should learn concepts of range. Where you are safe and where you are not. In self defence these ranges become your pre aggression tools.

So one of the first rules of fighting is if you are in range of the other guy and you are not effectively hitting them. You are in danger.

You go back to basic risk management and the first rule is avoid that situation.

This is also a fighting rule. First rule of defending underhooks. Is don't get underhooks.

They all overlap if you know where to look. The advantage of looking at the situation in that manner is you actually have a tested method to go off and so don't fall in to the story trap.

The fence while a good way to reduce a threat is not a good place in which to stay.

Too many people think they are protected here. Where understanding fighting will tell you that you are not.

This is why many TMA focus on the concept of (in Japanese) ma-ai - distance and timing. It's important to pay attention y which of your tools work from different ranges, because you are in range of an attackers similar tools at those ranges.

That said, this is difficult to manage in some situations where there aren't any significant pre-violence cues. Someone standing too close in McDonald's can't be a trigger for fight prep every time.

 

[drop bear]

This is why many TMA focus on the concept of (in Japanese) ma-ai - distance and timing. It's important to pay attention y which of your tools work from different ranges, because you are in range of an attackers similar tools at those ranges.

That said, this is difficult to manage in some situations where there aren't any significant pre-violence cues. Someone standing too close in McDonald's can't be a trigger for fight prep every time.

Yeah. But if there was a solution. We would all be doing it. We just manage as best we can.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

That last part is the hardest for many of us. I'm my father's son in this - I have a hard time just ignoring an idiot. I've learned to suppress the urge to taunt them into showing their idiocy (which invariably leads to them wanting a fight) and let them have an empty "win", but the urge is still there.

Perhaps, you don't realize that you too show yourself to be an idiot.
What's the point of taunting someone into looking like an idiot other than to make yourself look smart? Having been there, I can tell you that it doesn't make you look smart to the people watching. It just looks like 2 idiots fighting.

You're right to resist that temptation.


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Perhaps, you don't realize that you too show yourself to be an idiot.
What's the point of taunting someone into looking like an idiot other than to make yourself look smart? Having been there, I can tell you that it doesn't make you look smart to the people watching. It just looks like 2 idiots fighting.

You're right to resist that temptation.


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk

Or perhaps I do realize.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

Or perhaps I do realize.

OK...that made me laugh! [emoji1]


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk