Well, balance disruption is definitely a core skill in getting someone to a place where you can pin them. I guess tying them up with your belt could count as hojojutsu. Maybe you should add that art to your resume.
Self-defense against a friend, or any other person you ordinarily wouldn't want hurt
- Thread starter Carol
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Well, balance disruption is definitely a core skill in getting someone to a place where you can pin them. I guess tying them up with your belt could count as hojojutsu. Maybe you should add that art to your resume.
My main areas of practice are aikido and karate. Aikido has a number of pins and holds that do not rely on pain, same for my karate which is traditional, not sport based. In the other areas within my sphere, Systema has all of Aikido's principles so it too has the same techniques. I can't speak for the others but I suspect many of the other guys would say the same for their styles too.
:asian:
Can you point me to some video of karate techniques for pinning someone without using joint locks? I'd love to see what they look like.
For a friend, I tend to use the same techniques I would use for anyone else... Because of what I do IRL, I know that there are always going to be spectators... So, clocking someone in the jaw or delivering a well placed round kick to their knee isn't the BEST course of action... So, I try to subdue the friend using grappling techniques without the "incidental contact" that happens with someone who I couldn't care less about actually putting in a little pain.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Interesting topic. Locally there is a 17 yr old on trial for murder. Story is 3 teens were out getting high and the one started acting out like the drunk uncle so to speak. The 17 yr old was trying to calm him down and pin him down but he ended up choking him to death
Choke holds are a very effective, very dangerous technique indeed... There is that pivotal moment when the subject passes out when the choke must be released or the subject becomes a victim...
The way it was explained to me is you can apply the hold in 3 secs, the subject will pass out in 5 secs, the subject will die in 7 secs. That's only 15 secs from beginning to end!
While I can understand why the friend did it, he will probably be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter- he just needs to prove his intent was to subdue and not kill.
The way it was explained to me is you can apply the hold in 3 secs, the subject will pass out in 5 secs, the subject will die in 7 secs. That's only 15 secs from beginning to end!
While I can understand why the friend did it, he will probably be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter- he just needs to prove his intent was to subdue and not kill.
For some unlikely input from an Iaido practitioner, we don't mess around subduing opponents.
We draw, we cut, bits come off. End of story. That is the whole underlying point of Iai - lethal response to surprise attack in a non-battlefield setting.
The only way I would attempt to control someone is by placing my kissaki in the most evident place possible for the stupidly aggressive 'friend' to contemplate and hope he had the sense to realise that if he tries to reach me he is going to die.
Well, to be fair, there are some strikes that can be done using the saya with the katana undrawn but I wouldn't rely on them to do much to someone who is already out of control.
We draw, we cut, bits come off. End of story. That is the whole underlying point of Iai - lethal response to surprise attack in a non-battlefield setting.
The only way I would attempt to control someone is by placing my kissaki in the most evident place possible for the stupidly aggressive 'friend' to contemplate and hope he had the sense to realise that if he tries to reach me he is going to die.
Well, to be fair, there are some strikes that can be done using the saya with the katana undrawn but I wouldn't rely on them to do much to someone who is already out of control.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I think the murder charge stems from what they did afterhe died tthen the death itself. They panicked drove out in middle of nowhere and dumped the body
There are lots of videos on YouTube.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUD9zI3y1w
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pvH2i2dMID4&feature=plpp&p=PLED0CC886E6D3E679
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3vQwe4AkmQI
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdx5EWuxUs0 (just the first 80 seconds)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oKH0_63JUdA
Although not karate guys here, it is one we do and in a number of the Goju kata:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfARpMdBCwk&desktop_uri=/watch?v=WfARpMdBCwk
Some involve locks and pain but I think you can see from this that grappling is a major part of traditional karate.
:asian:
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
That's more my take. Going "easy" on a friend that's not going easy on you is asking to get hurt. I'll verbally try to calm you down you don't listen and it gets physical your getting struck. I'll control the first two or three blows to show I'm not playing but after that I'm putting you down. Better me then the cops arresting your butt
I certainly wouldn't disagree that traditional karate has plenty of grappling, but I was speaking specifically about pinning someone without relying on joint locks. All the pinning/controlling methods in those videos are using joint locks (except for the two videos where Abernethy demonstrates some judo groundwork. (He explicitly says in the text for the first video that the ground techniques come from judo and he does not make any claims that they come from karate.)
This is not to say that the joint locks are necessarily bad techniques - just that when using them you have to be prepared to actually inflict some structural damage.
I had to cross train and research extensively to reach my current understanding and I am sure I have many years of research ahead. Judo techniques came from jujutsu. Here is an interesting comment on jujutsu.
There are only a finite number of ways of twisting and locking the human body. All of those ways are found in all of the old unarmed martial arts.
Because so few instructors have the knowledge of guys like Iain Abernethy you need to watch other styles to understand and recognise where a lot of those techniques come into the karate kata. Tegumi is an important part of my training and an integral part of my students' grading requirement. The techniques don't 'come from' wrestling, judo or jujutsu. They were always there but mostly lost when karate was taken into the schools and turned into sport. In karate they mostly don't have names just as nothing else had names until Westerners started demanding names after WWII. Prior to that it was just 'do this'.
:asian:
LOL... I remember one of my instructors saying one time that he never wanted a student to not be able to recognize what they were doing by name... He said nothing was worse than seeing someone try to explain what they were doing in their school by saying "I don't know what its called, but we do this".
I also remember another of my instructors saying that some of the stuff we associate with a block and perhaps even call a block was actually meant to be a strike. But an onlooker who didn't know what they were seeing associated the strike with a block. This was an explanation of his principle that every strike is a block and every block is a strike... It was shortly after that, he taught me that when doing an outside forearm block to focus not so much on stopping my opponents strike, but instead to try to put my forearm through his as if I was striking with my forearm... My blocks became tremendously better as a result and I found that after a couple wide strikes, my opponent didn't necessarily want to try to hit me like that anymore...
I also remember another of my instructors saying that some of the stuff we associate with a block and perhaps even call a block was actually meant to be a strike. But an onlooker who didn't know what they were seeing associated the strike with a block. This was an explanation of his principle that every strike is a block and every block is a strike... It was shortly after that, he taught me that when doing an outside forearm block to focus not so much on stopping my opponents strike, but instead to try to put my forearm through his as if I was striking with my forearm... My blocks became tremendously better as a result and I found that after a couple wide strikes, my opponent didn't necessarily want to try to hit me like that anymore...
Koshiki
Brown Belt
Not a seriously enraged, blind-with-anger person, no. But a couple of times just a pissed person lashing out, who calmed down, once with a wrist crunch and a arm lock (yes, against the joints.) Last weekend with simple arm control, no locks, but that was a woman, over whom I had a height, possibly weight, and DEFINITELY sobriety advantage. If someone was beyond a brief flash of violent anger, it would obviously be a great deal more difficult. I think a judgement call needs to be made, as to whether or not this is a friend trying to truly assault (try to ditch the concept of friend and do whatever is necessary) or whether someone is just tweaking out for a few seconds. (Try to restrain and avoid causing any structural damage, and hopefully any intense pain.) I think strikes have more place in the true assault, then in the angry spat.
As to the lock, yes. Essentially, hold him until he calms down, and then a little longer. Then relax a bit but maintain control, see if he has really given in. THEN, maybe risk letting go. If the person isn't just momentarily pissed, then all bets are off, and you should try to minimize the effects of your affection, and just defend as aggressively as you would want to if it were a stranger. As to the solar plexus hit, I agree! I already mentioned that that has once worked for me.
I was under the impression that the original post was talking about dealing with someone momentarily out of control, who you know well, and who you think is not truly dangerous, but will calm down in short order. A truly dangerous person should be dealt with as swiftly as possible, no matter your relationship. In my opinion, once you've tried to hurt someone, you lose any claim to perquisites of friendship.
Old style, pre-KTA/ITF/WTF TKD kid guy here already. (So basically Shotokan with a few more kicks...) Most of our controlling is more based on locks (read: breaks). The thing about TKD and Karate, is that you basically have a kata-textbook of ways in which the body moves effectively and with control and power, and it's up to you to interpret them as you will. Truly studying kata, rather than just performing or training the movements, leads you to a variety of striking, manipulating, throwing, locking, off-setting, and also control without locking. For me, kata tends to lend itself MORE to locking/controlling/otherwise manipulating than it does to striking. There are only so many ways to control someone effectively, and most arts that work in close with grappling seem to arrive at the same ones.
To be fair, the way my system approaches TKD is probably closer to the way people practice Okinawan Karate styles, than the way most people practice TKD. I don't know how to restrain someone with a jump kick!
Win Chun, I don't know. Most of their restraining seems to be trapping an arm for a fraction of a second.
When I mentioned Iaido, I was hoping that flashing three feet of curved razor in front of a sane person might be enough to get them to back off...!
I'd say the typical arm-bar (a joint lock) can effectively restrain someone for a lengthy period of time, without inflicting real damage, unless the other person is really crazed. If they're really crazed, snap, follow-up, and disengage. All bets are off, I don't care how much you like the guy...
As I recall, Gichin Funakoshi even mentions in his autobiography that Karate kata should be applied to the ground as well, and in as many different ways as possible. My TKD school has two-person drills containing nearly BJJ identical arm bars dating back from the mid 20th century at least, as well as chokes, head controls, locks...
I personally would find bits being cut off as very subduing. I guess the being subdued unto death might be perceived as a less than friendly response.
That mirrors my old school Tang Soo Do training (with bits of Kajukempo interspersed). Joint locks could be precursors to take downs and throws. I would defer to those who have used these techniques outside of the training environment, however. I have had no occasion to use any of the techniques in a real situation and I absolutely concede that experience trumps theory in this discussion.
:chuckles: I would too :nods:
. But you would be surprised how people don't make the sensible choice sometimes even when it's blindingly obvious 
. In the case of a sword, especially one like a katana, I don't think people who don't use them really realise just how dangerous they are. I think everyone who has practised Iai and progressed to using live blades has cut themselves at some point or other ... and that's with our own swords :lol:.
:chuckles: I would too :nods:
It has been said the biggest battle lies with ones self. I can only assume that at these self cutting times you may have lost that battle, for that day........I think I'll stick to karate. :rofl:
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