a couple of thoughts about self-defense

[Deaf Smith]

yep...which is why I've told my students (and posted here) that if you're really serious about self defense and you're not training with and carrying weapons (when possible), you're not really serious.

This is truth. I've heard some students in other arts that size and strenth don't matter (hahaha yea sure...) I've seen paraphanelia from an art say you don't need guns and knives, their art will do all (and you can guess what I said wihen I read that.)

I'm a deep beliver in using the most effective weapon you can legaly aquire. And face it, the firearm is way ahead of anything else. And of pure defensive use, on a daily basis, the handgun, because of it's protability and concealabilty, is it. Not nachuka sticks, not tafongs, not throwing stars, not sticks, staffs, etc... but a good handgun. That and backed by a hand skilled in it's use.

do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself. everything else will fall into place.

Ken, I ddn't mean to imply anything with Cooper's comments. I can see what you were referring to.

I detest 'feeling good' about yourself. Self respect yes, but 'feeling good' mearly means you pat your self on the back, cause you are 'cool'. Guess what happens when someone decides to make you not 'feel good" about yourself and is very uncool!

Hard good training brings self-confidence and control of your emotions. It also breeds judgment. Good judgement.

Deaf

 

[KenpoTex]

How can we train to introduce the surprise, realism, danger and physiological states of real world scenarios and still have schools that average people want to enroll in?? I don't have the answers -- just the questions.

Thanks.

Really, you can't...most people will never get it.

Ken, I ddn't mean to imply anything with Cooper's comments. I can see what you were referring to.

I detest 'feeling good' about yourself. Self respect yes, but 'feeling good' mearly means you pat your self on the back, cause you are 'cool'. Guess what happens when someone decides to make you not 'feel good" about yourself and is very uncool!

Hard good training brings self-confidence and control of your emotions. It also breeds judgment. Good judgement.

Deaf

um...I wasn't the one that made the comment about "doing whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself." That was the OP.

I'm confused...

 

[chokimotobu]

Not to sound simplistic, but you would think "self defense" would boil down to exercising common sense about your surroundings and having a way to win a fight if you get into one. Just to be clear, I consider self defense to be a fight. If someone tries to rape a woman and she fights back they are fighting. If someone pulls a gun on me and I try to take it, it's a fight (unless I get shot). A way to win a fight might be a weapon, might be martial arts skill, might be building muscle mass, might be a gaurd dog. It might even be a YMCA self defense three week course (good luck).

 

[Guardian]

Not to sound simplistic, but you would think "self defense" would boil down to exercising common sense about your surroundings and having a way to win a fight if you get into one. Just to be clear, I consider self defense to be a fight. If someone tries to rape a woman and she fights back they are fighting. If someone pulls a gun on me and I try to take it, it's a fight (unless I get shot). A way to win a fight might be a weapon, might be martial arts skill, might be building muscle mass, might be a gaurd dog. It might even be a YMCA self defense three week course (good luck).

In the basic sense of the two words. You hit it pretty much head on. Alot of folks relate self-defense to the MAs only, but then of course we are on a MA Site, so they kind of go hand in hand, but Self-Defense can be numerous ways.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Really, you can't...most people will never get it.


um...I wasn't the one that made the comment about "doing whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself." That was the OP.

I'm confused...

I know Ken. I was commenting on his comment you commented on!

Deaf

 

[KenpoTex]

I know Ken. I was commenting on his comment you commented on!

Deaf

gotcha...yesterday was a long day

 

[terryl965]

I have to agree with some great dolks here if you are not training to be with some type of weapon then you are just going though the motion of SD.

 

[allenjp]

Of course not! I was just making an analogy. Although....

My other training is Aikido and Judo.

Cool, nice style combo, but I was actually kind of hoping you did carry a sword. Then maybe I could do it. I love swords.

 

[allenjp]

I have to agree with some great dolks here if you are not training to be with some type of weapon then you are just going though the motion of SD.

I understand what you are saying but this is not necessarily true. I never can quite understand why some people think that all SD situations HAVE to involve surprise, multiple attackers, weapons etc...

Of course one really should be ready for the worst case scenario (well, try to be as ready as possible). But sometimes if you are going to stand your ground against some jawjacking idiot, he may try to hurt you even if you don't throw the first punch. Then you have to DEFEND yourSELF, hence the term self defense. The reality is that sometimes SD DOES involve one unarmed attacker, and sometimes even with some knowledge or intimation that you are about to be attacked. Just MHO.

 

[jarrod]

But sometimes if you are going to stand your ground against some jawjacking idiot, he may try to hurt you even if you don't throw the first punch. Then you have to DEFEND yourSELF, hence the term self defense. The reality is that sometimes SD DOES involve one unarmed attacker, and sometimes even with some knowledge or intimation that you are about to be attacked. Just MHO.

i see what you're saying, but i don't quite agree. what you're describing above isn't self-defense but a fight (yes self-defense is a fight, but not all fighting is self-defense). a guy running his mouth is something you can walk away from. the moment you engage him without the intent of de-escalating the situation it is no longer self-defense.

jf

 

[allenjp]

i see what you're saying, but i don't quite agree. what you're describing above isn't self-defense but a fight (yes self-defense is a fight, but not all fighting is self-defense). a guy running his mouth is something you can walk away from. the moment you engage him without the intent of de-escalating the situation it is no longer self-defense.

jf

I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?

 

[jarrod]

I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?

i find your disagreement disagreeable.

really though, i'd say it's a borderline case. maybe self-defense gone wrong. turning your back when you walk away is certainly a mistake. you're right though, de-escalation is not a sure thing; but there is an art to it just like with fighting. i've run into my share of loudmouths & have always been able to talk my way out of it unless i was too inebriated to do so (an error on my part).

jf

 

[jks9199]

I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?

It's very important that, if you have tried to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.

Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked. You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.

 

[allenjp]

It's very important that, if you have tried to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.

Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked. You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.

Why should you have to "stay primed for action"? If you have effectively de-escalated then there should be no danger, right? You make my point exactly. That some guys just aren't willing to be de-escalated (too drunk or ego too big or just plain stupid). Sometimes they are GOING to throw blows at you no matter what, and they are only jawjacking to make you afraid so they can overwhelm you that much easier.

I'll give you an example. My dad was with his girlfriend outside of a piano bar one night when his friend noticed another guy making eyes at my dad's girlfriend (now his wife). He wasn't just looking at her, he was making a big show of it, and being very disrespectful. My dad turned around and said "hey, that's not cool man, come on inside and let me buy you a drink". When my dad turned to go inside the bar one of the google eyed fellow's friends who was already inside heard that there was a commotion and came out and started throwing blows at my dad. I won't go into details of the fight that ensued, but let's just say that the agressor went home quite worse for the wear and my dad ended up going inside to sit down for that drink. Now I realise that this could have very easily turned into a multiple opponent situation, but it didn't because my dad's friend was outside taking care of the google eyed gentleman. I only bring this story up because it was a situation where my dad had every intention of de-escalating the situation, even offering to buy the guy a drink, and still ended up getting attacked. It was obvious that these guys were there just looking for a fight, and that's the way drunk idiots are sometimes.

In reality sometimes you just have to fight someone, even though they don't catch you by surprise, pull a weapon on you, or jump you with three of their friends. And it is not always possible or practical to avoid it. I am certainly not saying that those things don't happen, just that it doesn't ALWAYS happen that way.

 

[allenjp]

i find your disagreement disagreeable.

I find your finding of the disagreeableness of my disagreement to your disagreeing with me to be disagreeable in a most disagreeable sense.

The cool part about this forum though is that we can disagree on disagreeing until the proverbial cows come home and still walk away friends.

 

[jks9199]

It's very important that, if you have tried to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.

Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked. You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.

Why should you have to "stay primed for action"? If you have effectively de-escalated then there should be no danger, right? You make my point exactly. That some guys just aren't willing to be de-escalated (too drunk or ego too big or just plain stupid). Sometimes they are GOING to throw blows at you no matter what, and they are only jawjacking to make you afraid so they can overwhelm you that much easier.

...

In reality sometimes you just have to fight someone, even though they don't catch you by surprise, pull a weapon on you, or jump you with three of their friends. And it is not always possible or practical to avoid it. I am certainly not saying that those things don't happen, just that it doesn't ALWAYS happen that way.

The key word is tried. Unless you are absolutely certain that things have calmed down, don't drop your guard. You don't have to do some loony "walking fighting stance" away... but you need to keep alert to the possibility that the guy may just decide to take a cheap shot as you walk away, too.

EDIT:

Nevermind... for those wondering, this IS what it looks like to shove a keyboard in your mouth. It's only slightly more pleasant than a foot...

 

[allenjp]

Fair enough man...I'm sure the keyboard tastes better than the foot, though maybe only slightly?

BTW your signature line contains one of my favorite quotes of all time.

 

[jarrod]

your disagreement is...aw **** it. we're cool man.

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?

I couldn't agree more!

Specifically, negotiating from a position of weakness doesn't work.......de-escalation is one thing......LOOKING like you're simply begging is asking for a beating.

Bottom line is that a bully is looking for an easy mark......and one can mark themselves as such by giving the impression that they will AVOID fighting.....or even fighting BACK......at all costs!

It's best to give a man the impression that you don't really want to beat him in to a coma.......but you will if you have to!

 

[sgtmac_46]

It's very important that, if you have tried to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.

Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked. You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.

It's a mindset different from the one I have had to develop for the last 12 years. As a cop,

1) you aren't required to retreat,

2) you are required to establish control of any situation, and

3) three, you are allowed to use whatever force is reasonably necessary to do so.

So the mindset you develop under those circumstances is polite domination and control. In short you ask nicely....if that doesn't work you tell.....then you MAKE!