Self-defense against a friend, or any other person you ordinarily wouldn't want hurt

[Koshiki]

I personally would find bits being cut off as very subduing. I guess the being subdued unto death might be perceived as a less than friendly response.

Hold, ye scurvy curr, a'fore I subdue ye to death!!!

It has been said the biggest battle lies with ones self. I can only assume that at these self cutting times you may have lost that battle, for that day........I think I'll stick to karate. :rofl:

I dunno, my primary instructor always trained with sharped Kama. In our kama kata the blades often slice very close and parallel to each other, in opposite directions. The blades of both his kama are completely serrated at this point, from all the times he's misjudged and clashed them together over the past forty something years. The wooden ends of them are likewise tattered and splintered and shredded from the occasional mistake. His knuckles... He's got a fair few reasonably impressive scars there, from the mistakes that didn't hit blade or handle... Yikes!

 

[K-man]

I've never involved myself in Iaido. It looks far too dangerous to me.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gXY9TuuwyL8&desktop_uri=/watch?v=gXY9TuuwyL8

:asian:

 

[seasoned]

Hold, ye scurvy curr, a'fore I subdue ye to death!!!



I dunno, my primary instructor always trained with sharped Kama. In our kama kata the blades often slice very close and parallel to each other, in opposite directions. The blades of both his kama are completely serrated at this point, from all the times he's misjudged and clashed them together over the past forty something years. The wooden ends of them are likewise tattered and splintered and shredded from the occasional mistake. His knuckles... He's got a fair few reasonably impressive scars there, from the mistakes that didn't hit blade or handle... Yikes!

Many years age I had a close friend that didn't fair very well at a tournament. After declaring "live blade" to the judges in the beginning of his kata and while he was standing within a few feet of them, he brought the Kama down from his shoulder along his arm a bit close and cut the back of his hand. As the blood shot on the two middle judges, he continued the kata to the end. From there he went straight to the hospital. We were always taught that if you start your kata you always finish no matter what..........

 

[MJS]

How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?

Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff. Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.

You want to protect yourself, or distance your friend from another person....but you might not want to resort to the rock-em-sock-em-break-their-face stuff because you know they are not being themselves.

Does your training prepare you for this sort of thing? Just curious

Nice topic!

Yes, this is where having some experience with an art that focuses on grappling, locking, controlling, etc methods, is very important. BJJ, FMAs, Jujitsu, etc, would IMO, be much better to deal with what you describe above.

 

[frank raud]

Choke holds are a very effective, very dangerous technique indeed... There is that pivotal moment when the subject passes out when the choke must be released or the subject becomes a victim...

The way it was explained to me is you can apply the hold in 3 secs, the subject will pass out in 5 secs, the subject will die in 7 secs. That's only 15 secs from beginning to end!

While I can understand why the friend did it, he will probably be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter- he just needs to prove his intent was to subdue and not kill.

It always makes me nervous to see a timeline stated for how long it takes for a choke to take effect. Everyone reacts differently. If you are counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi... expecting to let go at 5, you could be in for a shock. Either he is not passed out, and counter attacks, or is so far gone you can't revive him. If you apply a choke, observe the person being choked, and base how long to hold the choke on their reactions, not on a standard timeline.

 

[Zero]

It always makes me nervous to see a timeline stated for how long it takes for a choke to take effect. Everyone reacts differently. If you are counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi... expecting to let go at 5, you could be in for a shock. Either he is not passed out, and counter attacks, or is so far gone you can't revive him. If you apply a choke, observe the person being choked, and base how long to hold the choke on their reactions, not on a standard timeline.

Yes, I would be wary if dealing with someone quite gone on the booze of subduing them with a choke, depending on the force required, if they do pass out and stop breathing it might be a real problem getting them to start again! It might actually be better just chining them with a stirke to the jaw and sending them to the carpet there and then. I am no doctor but (while it can happen) I have seen plenty KOs where the looser is out for the count but still breathing fine. But with a neck lock you basically asphixiate the guy, which stops breathing if taken to the extreme (and which can happen very quickly). Sure, depending on their size you could choose to just keep the lock on but not actually cut up into the jugular or wind pipe and stay on the ground and hope for them to tire and give up - but thay may not happen all too soon if they are hyper.

It's a hard question, as while it may seem improbable, given the circles we are in, it may be a drunk judoka, MAist you need to subdue. A good friend of mine who trained in karate with me has a brother who was a very good judoka back in the day, national level, he also likes to get tanked and can get quite "boisterous". He is a great guy, outside of that. But even drunk (unless he was completely smashed), he's not the kind of guy you would want to try to "subdue" in a watered down (half on) manner or you'd find yourself thrown through a plate glass window or some sort. You might put on a wirst or arm lock and find yourself having to go all the way. A broken wrist or shattered elbow doesn't sound too nice at all, I'd much rather a clip to the ol' jaw between "friends" - given that's the topic. Sure, there is then always the problem of where they fall and what on! But in a party or even just a few mates at home, when taking someone to the ground it can be difficult to avoid injury when there are tables, glass cabinets, tvs about the place etc.

 

[CK1980]

It always makes me nervous to see a timeline stated for how long it takes for a choke to take effect. Everyone reacts differently. If you are counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi... expecting to let go at 5, you could be in for a shock. Either he is not passed out, and counter attacks, or is so far gone you can't revive him. If you apply a choke, observe the person being choked, and base how long to hold the choke on their reactions, not on a standard timeline.

I would agree with your response there... I used a timeline more for the sake of showing that- while effective- a choke hold is probably not the best option for subduing someone you consider to not be a threat on your life... It's a little easier to describe something like that in a term of "seconds" I think.

 

[wingchun100]

I focus a lot on the "yin" side of wing chun. I have a brother in law who has a very bad temper, often lashing out at the people who try to help him the most. Unlike most people, I don't keep my mouth shut when he starts disrespecting me. He has tried to be physical, and I had to evade and restrain until he got a grip on himself.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, I would be wary if dealing with someone quite gone on the booze of subduing them with a choke, depending on the force required, if they do pass out and stop breathing it might be a real problem getting them to start again! It might actually be better just chining them with a stirke to the jaw and sending them to the carpet there and then. I am no doctor but (while it can happen) I have seen plenty KOs where the looser is out for the count but still breathing fine. But with a neck lock you basically asphixiate the guy, which stops breathing if taken to the extreme (and which can happen very quickly). Sure, depending on their size you could choose to just keep the lock on but not actually cut up into the jugular or wind pipe and stay on the ground and hope for them to tire and give up - but thay may not happen all too soon if they are hyper.

It's a hard question, as while it may seem improbable, given the circles we are in, it may be a drunk judoka, MAist you need to subdue. A good friend of mine who trained in karate with me has a brother who was a very good judoka back in the day, national level, he also likes to get tanked and can get quite "boisterous". He is a great guy, outside of that. But even drunk (unless he was completely smashed), he's not the kind of guy you would want to try to "subdue" in a watered down (half on) manner or you'd find yourself thrown through a plate glass window or some sort. You might put on a wirst or arm lock and find yourself having to go all the way. A broken wrist or shattered elbow doesn't sound too nice at all, I'd much rather a clip to the ol' jaw between "friends" - given that's the topic. Sure, there is then always the problem of where they fall and what on! But in a party or even just a few mates at home, when taking someone to the ground it can be difficult to avoid injury when there are tables, glass cabinets, tvs about the place etc.

Lay and pray.

It is a lot harder to deal with a guy who is clamping down but is not trying to gain a position. They don't give as much to work with.

Banned in most competition because nobody can advance and a fight winds up going for twenty minutes with nothing happening.

Perfect for uncle judo though.(well sorta. If the skill difference is extreme then you will still be in trouble)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?

Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff. Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.

You want to protect yourself, or distance your friend from another person....but you might not want to resort to the rock-em-sock-em-break-their-face stuff because you know they are not being themselves.

Does your training prepare you for this sort of thing? Just curious

It does, though with someone you know, if the circumstances have gotten physical, then it is very likely that numerous cues for de-escalation have been missed.

 

[wingchun100]

It does, though with someone you know, if the circumstances have gotten physical, then it is very likely that numerous cues for de-escalation have been missed.

I agree, although with my brother in law it isn't a big deal. I evade, get behind him and get him in position for a chokehold, applying only the slightest bit of pressure. I ask him, "Are you done messing around?" But he is ready to give up before I even ask the question because he is quickly reminded that I can handle myself. LOL

 

[CNida]

I can say in all honesty that nothing I have officially trained in has been much good for me.

When dealing with patients at the hospital I dont get to do pain compliance techniques.

What little training I do have is basic submissions on the ground... I have locked someone in a kimuta from side control and found it a good way to restrain someone without harming them, so long as I dont actually crank the arm. Then it looks like I am TRYING to hurt them.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

 

[drop bear]

I would agree with your response there... I used a timeline more for the sake of showing that- while effective- a choke hold is probably not the best option for subduing someone you consider to not be a threat on your life... It's a little easier to describe something like that in a term of "seconds" I think.

A choke hold not applied like you want to twist someone's head off is a good high percentage total body restraint. And you can control their head. Which means you can prevent it.

You can use the basic standing sleeper to pretty gently sit someone on the ground.

Where a throw may risk a fall injury or an armlock break the joint.
(Have had that happen to a mate of mine who had a guy in a hammerlock. Guy threw himself trying to kick and broke his own arm)

 

[drop bear]

I can say in all honesty that nothing I have officially trained in has been much good for me.

When dealing with patients at the hospital I dont get to do pain compliance techniques.

What little training I do have is basic submissions on the ground... I have locked someone in a kimuta from side control and found it a good way to restrain someone without harming them, so long as I dont actually crank the arm. Then it looks like I am TRYING to hurt them.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

Have you had much success with a scarf hold head arm triangle thing on the ground? I have a bit of success hitting it from a duck under.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9v0CUnYsVzc

On the ground I sit down rather than take that side control because a hard floor is friendlier on my but than my knees.

Sort of this.

 

[CNida]

Have you had much success with a scarf hold head arm triangle thing on the ground? I have a bit of success hitting it from a duck under.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9v0CUnYsVzc

On the ground I sit down rather than take that side control because a hard floor is friendlier on my but than my knees.

Sort of this.

Ive never been in a situation to need to slap someone in a head and arm. However, in regards to the side control thing... I like to go knees down so i have better control over the patients entire body, i.e. legs and feet. I usually trap an arm under my knee and use the other leg to keep balanced and keep them from rolling us both over.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

 

[drop bear]

Ive never been in a situation to need to slap someone in a head and arm. However, in regards to the side control thing... I like to go knees down so i have better control over the patients entire body, i.e. legs and feet. I usually trap an arm under my knee and use the other leg to keep balanced and keep them from rolling us both over.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

Cradle?

Which would be a solid pin.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YyRUlxAwLKE

 

[CNida]

Cradle?

Which would be a solid pin.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YyRUlxAwLKE

No. More like the Salaverry (crucifix?) but only instead of stepping my knee completely over the arm, I place it on the bicep or elbow/forearm to keep that arm from moving and grabbing my tender bits.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

 

[PhotonGuy]

How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?

Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff. Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.

You want to protect yourself, or distance your friend from another person....but you might not want to resort to the rock-em-sock-em-break-their-face stuff because you know they are not being themselves.

Does your training prepare you for this sort of thing? Just curious

Aikido would be one of the best things to use for this.

 

[FatMan]

...

I also remember another of my instructors saying that some of the stuff we associate with a block and perhaps even call a block was actually meant to be a strike. But an onlooker who didn't know what they were seeing associated the strike with a block. This was an explanation of his principle that every strike is a block and every block is a strike... It was shortly after that, he taught me that when doing an outside forearm block to focus not so much on stopping my opponents strike, but instead to try to put my forearm through his as if I was striking with my forearm... My blocks became tremendously better as a result and I found that after a couple wide strikes, my opponent didn't necessarily want to try to hit me like that anymore...

How much is realistically possible with a block like this? Can those of us who are NOT martial arts champions learn to block forcefully enough that the blocked limb HURTS enough to dissuade further strikes?

 

[Buka]

How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?

Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff. Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.

You want to protect yourself, or distance your friend from another person....but you might not want to resort to the rock-em-sock-em-break-their-face stuff because you know they are not being themselves.

Does your training prepare you for this sort of thing? Just curious

I think long time training prepares for most things, regardless of style/system. Certainly not every scenario, but the majority of them. I also think training/experience from certain occupations can help a whole lot.

It might also depend on just how close a friend we're discussing here. And exactly what the heck is going on. (the old line - "A friend helps you move. A best friend helps you move a body")

Don't you juts hate it when someone you're with is completely in the wrong and gets involved in a dangerous/illegal situation?