A curious outlook on self-defense learning

[Juany118]

Although

Although I partially agree with you, a so called self defense scenario, rarely can be avoided in the real world. I understand that a lot of people train in this and in how to avoid conflict, but a lot of it is just not based in reality. Nor is it based in actual dangerous situations.

Thats the thing with real life situations.

The reason why a lot of martial arts do not work on the streets, is not due to the art, but do to the lack of real world self defense experience on the part of the instructor.

I, personally, would never train under anyone who lacked real world experience and is the reason why finding a qualified instructor, is a rarety.

People do not put themselves in bad situations a majority of the time. **** just hapoens.

There are some places(a lot actually) where it has nothing to do with a person even looking for trouble or even knowing that they are in a place with such a threat.

I see that thought quite a bit here on martial talk and always think, its not that simple.

I myself, have never picked a fight nor went looking for one. But, I have been in a few, whether it was defending myself or protecting others. I have seen several people try to use the Descalation tactics to no avail.

It works for the police sure, but that is a give me. Simply because with an LEO, there is a lot more to deal with than just the cop standing in front of you, their guns and the threat of jail that comes with them, is why people back down. Not the techniques LEO's use to descalate the situation. IMO

Just on the last point, most people actually don't back down, unless you have some sort of relationship with them. By this I mean you can simply know each other, then they often say "okay fighting is only going to delay the inevitable and likely get me more charges so I might as well as get with the program." That said, even then, panic usually means a fight.

Now by fight I do NOT mean some guy (or gal) trying to beat down the cop. Unless the LEO is wading into a fight already in progress 95% of the "fights" a LEO ends up in are suspects fighting to open up a window to escape. They are punching, elbowing, trying to throw or trip so they can run. They know if they aren't armed, and/or haven't committed a violent felony of some sort, that we can't just blast em into next week. If a tool isn't already drawn (say a taser or OC Spray) they know the range is so short they can get outside it quickly. The suspect knows that with a few exceptions the extra 25 lbs of gear the LEO is carrying will give them an edge if they manage to get running, but they will fight on a VERY regular basis, the difference is the motive/goal of the fight.

You would actually be surprised at just how often "less than lethal" tools dont work. OC spray is very effected by not only range but weather conditions. A Taser has, typically a 25 meter range, but thanks to the mechanism use to spread the probes, all too often when 15 feet or closer you only get pain compliance which can be fought through. Either you need to be at that longer ranges (so the probes spread enough to get fair muscular disruption) or in melee so you shoot one location with the probes then drive stun somewhere else so that you achieve effective muscular disruption. The "regular" suspects know these limitations and exploit them, which leads to a lot of physical confrontations.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

The issue is a statistical one. Most people will maybe have one physical encounter in their adult lives. One encounter is not nearly enough to make any judgement on - it can only provide anecdotal input. If someone has 4 or 5, you can start to draw some conclusions of their psychological readiness, but still not their techniques, since they've only demonstrated against a maximum of 4 or 5 attacks (probably less, since many altercations will center around punches). My dad has had a few encounters, including one with a gun. More encounters than me, and all "successful" in that he walked away uninjured. He would not be a good source for self-defense training, neither physical nor avoidance.

De-escalation does work, but not every time (like the physical techniques). I've used it successfully more than once. (I've also failed to use it, and managed to back the other party down - not sure where to classify that one.) Where you see it fail, it was either mis-applied, or it was never going to work there. What you don't see is how often it does work, because those encounters stay relatively quiet and we never notice them unless we're in the middle of them. Avoidance works even better, and there's literally no way to notice that one, since nothing happens, at all. The same goes for target-hardening (making yourself a less desirable target).

EDIT: This statistical issue is why Drop Bear has a point when he talks about "validation" of technique. We can't expect enough street encounters to fully validate a technique or a person, so we have to add in some in-school validation: sparring, competition, randori, purposely resisting a technique, etc.

It also depends on the people that you are dealing with. In my experience, it works with those who are not violent or have never been in a violent situation. Those who make a career out of it, could care less about descalation. So basically, you have a group that it works on, who are conditioned to obey simply because of they have never known anything else other than submitting to authority.

Bad people do not simply stay in bad areas. That is just wishful thinkin and a dangerous one.

As stated earlier, if you have to guess what is going to happen and then design techniques that could work, Imo, you are wasting time.

Of course thats if you are training for protection of life and not just as a hobby.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just on the last point, most people actually don't back down, unless you have some sort of relationship with them. By this I mean you can simply know each other, then they often say "okay fighting is only going to delay the inevitable and likely get me more charges so I might as well as get with the program." That said, even then, panic usually means a fight.

Now by fight I do NOT mean some guy (or gal) trying to beat down the cop. Unless the LEO is wading into a fight already in progress 95% of the "fights" a LEO ends up in are suspects fighting to open up a window to escape. They are punching, elbowing, trying to throw or trip so they can run. They know if they aren't armed, and/or haven't committed a violent felony of some sort, that we can't just blast em into next week. If a tool isn't already drawn (say a taser or OC Spray) they know the range is so short they can get outside it quickly. The suspect knows that with a few exceptions the extra 25 lbs of gear the LEO is carrying will give them an edge if they manage to get running, but they will fight on a VERY regular basis, the difference is the motive/goal of the fight.

You would actually be surprised at just how often "less than lethal" tools dont work. OC spray is very effected by not only range but weather conditions. A Taser has, typically a 25 meter range, but thanks to the mechanism use to spread the probes, all too often when 15 feet or closer you only get pain compliance which can be fought through. Either you need to be at that longer ranges (so the probes spread enough to get fair muscular disruption) or in melee so you shoot one location with the probes then drive stun somewhere else so that you achieve effective muscular disruption. The "regular" suspects know these limitations and exploit them, which leads to a lot of physical confrontations.

Ah, yes. From an LEO standpoint, I'd suspect there's less backing down, and your descriptions sound plausible. If you're there, something significant has already happened.

For us mere mortals, de-escalation does happen. I've had people come at me obviously looking for a fight, and kept it from going there. Because of the situations and motivations you mentioned, that's a lot less likely to happen for an LEO. If they come at you looking for a fight, they already have a peg significantly loose somewhere.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It also depends on the people that you are dealing with. In my experience, it works with those who are not violent or have never been in a violent situation. Those who make a career out of it, could care less about descalation. So basically, you have a group that it works on, who are conditioned to obey simply because of they have never known anything else other than submitting to authority.

Bad people do not simply stay in bad areas. That is just wishful thinkin and a dangerous one.

As stated earlier, if you have to guess what is going to happen and then design techniques that could work, Imo, you are wasting time.

Of course thats if you are training for protection of life and not just as a hobby.

I'm curious what you think the alternative is. With competition, it's pretty easy to figure what you're likely to encounter. For the street, there are too many variables and too few encounters to narrow it down to what worked in the street, every time. Everything is unlikely (though some are more unlikely than others), so you aren't going to get a chance to go test techniques in enough scenarios to make fully-informed decisions. Your best bet is to use what evidence you have (anecdotal or drawn from reasonably related situations like LEOs and bouncers), combine it with what works in competitions/sparring/randori, add in what you're able to experiment with in the school/gym, and put together the most useful combination you can.

Nobody - I repeat nobody - has enough physical self-defense experience to do otherwise. That would take 100's of defenses from common street attacks to even begin to be meaningful.

 

[Juany118]

Ah, yes. From an LEO standpoint, I'd suspect there's less backing down, and your descriptions sound plausible. If you're there, something significant has already happened.

For us mere mortals, de-escalation does happen. I've had people come at me obviously looking for a fight, and kept it from going there. Because of the situations and motivations you mentioned, that's a lot less likely to happen for an LEO. If they come at you looking for a fight, they already have a peg significantly loose somewhere.

I agree de-escalation should indeed be the path for anyone not in a specific career. About the only time de-escalation doesn't work is if the person confronting you is not in possession of their mental faculties.

I was simply commenting to a specific point, that somehow the tools an Officer has means that fights are routinely avoided. That really isn't the case. The fights still happen, in my experience, with the same frequency, the tools simply gives you more options on how to address the inevitable.

De-escalation even works for police in specific circumstances. Crisis Interventions, if you know the suspect etc. The main difference is, unlike civilian life running/walking away is not always an option.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I'm curious what you think the alternative is. With competition, it's pretty easy to figure what you're likely to encounter. For the street, there are too many variables and too few encounters to narrow it down to what worked in the street, every time. Everything is unlikely (though some are more unlikely than others), so you aren't going to get a chance to go test techniques in enough scenarios to make fully-informed decisions. Your best bet is to use what evidence you have (anecdotal or drawn from reasonably related situations like LEOs and bouncers), combine it with what works in competitions/sparring/randori, add in what you're able to experiment with in the school/gym, and put together the most useful combination you can.

Nobody - I repeat nobody - has enough physical self-defense experience to do otherwise. That would take 100's of defenses from common street attacks to even begin to be meaningful.

I cant answer that as I went and tested it in real scenerios. I know(for me what works). I have observed, as well, those who believed in your method, bit off more than they can chew. LEO's might be a good source and maybe bouncers as well, but in my experience, not so much. I do have a few relatives and friends who are LEO but, in that town, most leo's make the decision not to even engage with violent offenders. It should be known that in Yakima county, police are not required to respond, even if a fellow officer is in need. Watched it happen to a friend, he quit the force when he was punished for mentioning it, when he was in that situation and two fellow officers, two blocks away, failed to respond to his call for aid.

I guess it was a tough gang and they didnt want to be marked. Thankfully, he made it out alive.

 

[Juany118]

I cant answer that as I went and tested it in real scenerios. I know(for me what works). I have observed, as well, those who believed in your method, bit off more than they can chew. LEO's might be a good source and maybe bouncers as well, but in my experience, not so much. I do have a few relatives and friends who are LEO but, in that town, most leo's make the decision not to even engage with violent offenders. It should be known that in Yakima county, police are not required to respond, even if a fellow officer is in need. Watched it happen to a friend, he quit the force when he was punished for mentioning it, when he was in that situation and two fellow officers, two blocks away, failed to respond to his call for aid.

I guess it was a tough gang and they didnt want to be marked. Thankfully, he made it out alive.

Ummm with those kind of rules I hope your county is "quiet.". If those rules existed where I work it would be complete anarchy on the streets. Also the people wouldn't stand for it, when they call 911 they expect police response.

As for the last bit... being "marked" by a street gang happens in the movies, not irl. Sounds to me like its a demoralized Department, likely an understaffed Sheriff's department, that deal with unincorporated portions of a County. There are a lot more demands made of LE Agencies that provide for specific Political Subdivisions. Person doesn't get response, calls ward leader, ward leader yells at the Mayor or Supervisor then it all rolls downhill.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Ummm with those kind of rules I hope your county is "quiet.". If those rules existed where I work it would be complete anarchy on the streets.

With the gangs...it pretty much is.

 

[Juany118]

With the gangs...it pretty much is.

But that's my point. Not acting as you say creates an environment where criminal element believes they can act with impunity. If you aren't willing to hang your butt out a bit you need to find another career imo.

Though I found this article about Yakima interesting...10 Cities Where Americans Are Pretty Much Terrified to Live

Basically people thinking it's unsafe at night though it's violent crime is actually lower than the National Rate.

Great another research project. I like going over statistics when bored lol. The

 

[Deleted member 34973]

But that's my point. Not acting as you say creates an environment where criminal element believes they can act with impunity. If you aren't willing to hang your butt out a bit you need to find another career imo.

Though I found this article about Yakima interesting...10 Cities Where Americans Are Pretty Much Terrified to Live

Basically people thinking it's unsafe at night though it's violent crime is actually lower than the National Rate.

Great another research project. I like going over statistics when bored lol. The

Yes, Yakima is a bad place and the violent crime statistic is altered and doesnt actually show the truth. The county has been known to fudge the numbers for years. Hell, a majority of the murders are not even reported on the news.

 

[Juany118]

Yes, Yakima is a bad place and the violent crime statistic is altered and doesnt actually show the truth. The county has been known to fudge the numbers for years. Hell, a majority of the murders are not even reported on the news.

While it's off field, and thus this will be my last bit, it's he first part that is really my point. If what you note was a sanctioned "official" policy the politicians, and people, would be having a stroke. What you note, if not an exaggeration, not only contributes to the problem but is likely against the Department's codified policy. It is basically a civil suit waiting to happen and possibly even illegal depending on the way the Laws Governing LE are written in the State.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

While it's off field, and thus this will be my last bit, it's he first part that is really my point. If what you note was a sanctioned "official" policy the politicians, and people, would be having a stroke. What you note, if not an exaggeration, not only contributes to the problem but is likely against the Department's codified policy. It is basically a civil suit waiting to happen and possibly even illegal depending on the way the Laws Governing LE are written in the State.

You would think...but in reality...its not the case. I know people find it hard to believe but LEO's in the U.S. are not required to risk there lives for anybody. As for the civil suit, I believe he is going through that now.

But if as always, its the good cops word, against the bad cops word.

Who do you think the force will protect?

Here is another law from Yakima county, if somebody tags your fence, you get a $400 fine for not cleaning it off yourself. If you catch the kids doing it and call the Yakima police department, you will be told that an LEO has to catch them with the spray can in hand. Its a minor thing, but shows that the police department, doesnt want to be bothered.

It is what it is.

 

[JP3]

IMO a self-defense situation arises when a Predator-Prey relationship takes place, even when the "predator" person is misled as to the prey mentality, awareness, and/or physical skill/power of the supposed "prey," the end result is the same, i.e. an attack comes with little or no warning and/or chance to avoid the confrontation and the defender is put in a position where the defensive position is mandated by the attack.

The other situation is the Duel situation, in which both combatants enter the situation because they wish to do so. Sometimes, mid-stream, the Predator-Prey situation is flipped, and this takes place, which is where a lot of martial arts people get in trouble with the laws of men.

 

[Juany118]

You would think...but in reality...its not the case. I know people find it hard to believe but LEO's in the U.S. are not required to risk there lives for anybody. As for the civil suit, I believe he is going through that now.

But if as always, its the good cops word, against the bad cops word.

Who do you think the force will protect?

Here is another law from Yakima county, if somebody tags your fence, you get a $400 fine for not cleaning it off yourself. If you catch the kids doing it and call the Yakima police department, you will be told that an LEO has to catch them with the spray can in hand. Its a minor thing, but shows that the police department, doesnt want to be bothered.

It is what it is.

Um I am completely aware of the first part...I have only been doing the job for almost 20 years in a high crime community. What you are speaking of here is often called the Public Duty Doctrine. The reason I noted the importance of State Law is because there are Legislative exceptions to it in some cases. Though none requiring Police to be "suicide troops."

However literally not responding to a call period, as an example, could be an issue for a number of reasons. First depending on the circumstances a complete dismissal of a radio dispatch could rise to the level of gross negligence and/or recklessness because you cant even say you had the facts to properly evaluate the incident in order to justify why you didn't take action. Then depending on the reason for the inaction, if determined, it can potentially rise to a level of official repression.

Then you have the impact of other issues. If your official oath of office goes beyond the "defend the Constitution..." To include "and enforce all the laws thereof" such as mine does, it can also create a legal issue. Codified Department policy can compound the issues. There can be an "unofficial" policies, as the one you speak of seems to be, but if the action in accordance with this unofficial policy contradicts written policy not only can the officer be sued but the supervisor and department itself for failure to supervise, properly train yada yada yada.

In many cases like this it isn't even one person's word against another either. All 911 calls and radio dispatches are public record, department policies as well. At least in my county all patrol cars have GPS and the records of not only where I am/was but how fast I was traveling at a given time are saved for a period of time. So such inaction isn't hard to prove at all.

/Shrug

 

[Deleted member 34973]

You could probably look up the piece that the local t.v. station did on it. This was a few years ago and I nolonger live there(for obvious reasons) so, I havent followed it since.
Or the newspaper, yakima herald republic. The police force there, doesnt seem to be to concerned with citizen safety.

 

[Juany118]

You could probably look up the piece that the local t.v. station did on it. This was a few years ago and I nolonger live there(for obvious reasons) so, I havent followed it since.
Or the newspaper, yakima herald republic. The police force there, doesnt seem to be to concerned with citizen safety.

I have been digging actually and have been finding nothing. I had already assumed that if what you are saying here was accurate that a reporter, hell a bunch of em, would have been running with this story pretty hard.

 

[drop bear]

Just on the last point, most people actually don't back down, unless you have some sort of relationship with them. By this I mean you can simply know each other, then they often say "okay fighting is only going to delay the inevitable and likely get me more charges so I might as well as get with the program." That said, even then, panic usually means a fight.

Now by fight I do NOT mean some guy (or gal) trying to beat down the cop. Unless the LEO is wading into a fight already in progress 95% of the "fights" a LEO ends up in are suspects fighting to open up a window to escape. They are punching, elbowing, trying to throw or trip so they can run. They know if they aren't armed, and/or haven't committed a violent felony of some sort, that we can't just blast em into next week. If a tool isn't already drawn (say a taser or OC Spray) they know the range is so short they can get outside it quickly. The suspect knows that with a few exceptions the extra 25 lbs of gear the LEO is carrying will give them an edge if they manage to get running, but they will fight on a VERY regular basis, the difference is the motive/goal of the fight.

You would actually be surprised at just how often "less than lethal" tools dont work. OC spray is very effected by not only range but weather conditions. A Taser has, typically a 25 meter range, but thanks to the mechanism use to spread the probes, all too often when 15 feet or closer you only get pain compliance which can be fought through. Either you need to be at that longer ranges (so the probes spread enough to get fair muscular disruption) or in melee so you shoot one location with the probes then drive stun somewhere else so that you achieve effective muscular disruption. The "regular" suspects know these limitations and exploit them, which leads to a lot of physical confrontations.

Every experience with violence and police from my perspective is that guys are happy to fight us because if they win they will generally get away with it. We dont have weapons,are not the guys who decide who goes to jail and there is no assaulting a police officer equivalent.

As soon as the cops roll up it is like giving the guy a Valium.

I had a mate of mine stabbed with a screwdriver. After we grabbed him cops put him in a taxi and sent him home.

 

[drop bear]

IMO a self-defense situation arises when a Predator-Prey relationship takes place, even when the "predator" person is misled as to the prey mentality, awareness, and/or physical skill/power of the supposed "prey," the end result is the same, i.e. an attack comes with little or no warning and/or chance to avoid the confrontation and the defender is put in a position where the defensive position is mandated by the attack.

The other situation is the Duel situation, in which both combatants enter the situation because they wish to do so. Sometimes, mid-stream, the Predator-Prey situation is flipped, and this takes place, which is where a lot of martial arts people get in trouble with the laws of men.

I actively go from prey to duel though. Just because it starts to create advantages that being prey doesn't.

So if i am confronted i would rather instigate and remain at a tactical advantage. I may not go after a guy. But i am ready to go if he comes after me.

I have been sucker punched to many times to put up with that nonsense

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But that's my point. Not acting as you say creates an environment where criminal element believes they can act with impunity. If you aren't willing to hang your butt out a bit you need to find another career imo.

Though I found this article about Yakima interesting...10 Cities Where Americans Are Pretty Much Terrified to Live

Basically people thinking it's unsafe at night though it's violent crime is actually lower than the National Rate.

Great another research project. I like going over statistics when bored lol. The

Juany, you and I have something in common. I'll end up chasing those stats, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IMO a self-defense situation arises when a Predator-Prey relationship takes place, even when the "predator" person is misled as to the prey mentality, awareness, and/or physical skill/power of the supposed "prey," the end result is the same, i.e. an attack comes with little or no warning and/or chance to avoid the confrontation and the defender is put in a position where the defensive position is mandated by the attack.

The other situation is the Duel situation, in which both combatants enter the situation because they wish to do so. Sometimes, mid-stream, the Predator-Prey situation is flipped, and this takes place, which is where a lot of martial arts people get in trouble with the laws of men.

Those are ends of the spectrum. There are also attacks with plenty of cues, where there are opportunities to de-escalate, avoid, or at least know it's coming.