Ring vs battlefield versions of MAs

[Kong Soo Do]

Perhaps after that we can return to the OP 'ring v battlefield versions of MAs' because there's other styles that have a competition version in the ring, in fact, if you broaden it slightly to include mats we have even more styles. Broaden would seem to a good word as we should broaden the conversation somewhat away from just one style. MMA as such only has the one side...the competitive one, there is no battlefield equivalent of it as it stands.
Anyone with knowledge of San Shou for example, did that have a 'battlefield' version, does any of the Chinese styles, or the Korean or of course the Philipino (do they have a competitive side?)

TKD was taught to the ROK. This was a non-sport version of TKD, often referred to as 'old school' TKD. This doesn't diminish sport-TKD and many people enjoy it. But ROK soldiers weren't doing spinning back kicks and such as it wasn't germane to achieving their goals in combat. Also, Fairbairn and O'Neill had training in Judo as well as CMA. O'Neill was, in that era, the highest ranked non-Japanese Judo player in the world. However, Judo was not included in what was to become known as WWII Combatives. Rather some CMA did make the cut. Movements such as the chin jab, cow-catcher, shin rake, O'Neill cover etc can be found in CMA which predates the same movements later brought into OMA, JMA, KMA etc. Books such as 'Get Tough' and 'Kill or Be Killed' show a very simple yet very effective selection of movements that can be done in full gear, on the move, in a widely varying types of environments.

 

[Danny T]

Perhaps after that we can return to the OP 'ring v battlefield versions of MAs' because there's other styles that have a competition version in the ring,...

Like Muay Thai that derived from Krabri Krabong (battlefield with sword [Krabri] and staff [Krabong] and Muay Baron (the ancient empty hands fighting used if a combatant lost his weapons on the battlefield. The Ram Muay (prefight dance) is a direct throwback to Krabri Krabong. Many of the traditions of Muay Thai are maintained to keep the sport aspect linked to the battlefield where weapons were used.

 

[Mz1]

I do understand thats the point I was in the Marine Corps I did the Line training its effect for defending yourself in life or death. Its NOT effective for sparring with classmates in a controlled gym.

About how many hours did you train H2H in the Marines.

The fat midievl times guys are actors and not fighters.

Many are skilled swordsmen who likes dressing up in tights like Robin Hood and crap. Still legit swordsman. They spent way more training with spears, etc. than the Marines ever spent training you H2H. Who's going to be better at it? You've never fought anyone to the death H2H nor with your bayonet and neither have most other Marines.

I have no doubt a trained MMA fighter that trains several days a week can beat a Marine thats new to the class using the MMA rules. If it were not the case Id be worried about the training at that gym. Your rules your house you better win. Just like a trained MMA guy goes to a Hapkido place or Judo place or TKD place or Shotokan place and on his first day needs to spar by the rules they will win and the MMA guy will lose (not you of course but other MMA guys)

What rules, if it's hard sparring, I'm going to do try to knock them out. Fighting is fighting. Your only experience in H2H is pretend-fighting, in the dojo and in the Marines. You've never stab anyone on the battlefield before.

True its similar but its not the same. You both know as soon as someone taps the person will let go and you get to start again. That wont happen in real life. Training can not and will not EVER be the same as a real fight.

Try to understand what I just said. In real life on the battlefield, you can tap all you want after I got you in the choke.....I'm not letting go until you die. What part about me stating that I would stomp on your head repeatedly until your skull caves in if it were a fight to the death, do you not understand?

It has nothing to do with rape tacticts it stuff the militay are taught because on the battle field your not wearing a pair of board shorts and a rash guard you have flack jackets, helmets, knee pads, ect so your taught to go for exposed or unprotected areas of the body like eyes and the groin. See different rules.

Anti-rape tactics for women. You're not the only one who can figure out how to do this.

By the way how many fights to the death have you been in?

I'm not answering this on a public forum.

I said I dont need to prove to anyone I can knock them out. Showing what I was taught and proving Im a bad *** are totally different.

You're not a fighter, I already get this.

yet your ok with trying to injure your partners permenantly

Nothing gets pass you.

 

[Mz1]

Would you please fill out your profile so we can see for ourselves that you are the real deal that you claim and not a 12 yearold?


Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

Why? I can put anything I want on the internet, what's the point? But I'm up for a friendly meetup with any other martial artists to train while I'm in the Washington DC area if anyone wants.

 

[Mz1]

In addition, officers have vest and duty belt. My duty belt has a Glock 21 .45ACP, 2 mags of .45ACP ammo, Taser, spare Taser cartridge, O.C. spray, cuffs, MTM mask/kit, flashlight (Stinger Streamlight), 911 tool and radio. That weighs quite a bit, particularly towards the end of a 12 hour shift.

Think Mike Tyson's fists will become useless and he wouldn't know what to do if someone attacks him .... should he one day decides to wear all of this gear on and becomes a mall ninja?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Like Muay Thai that derived from Krabri Krabong (battlefield with sword [Krabri] and staff [Krabong] and Muay Baron (the ancient empty hands fighting used if a combatant lost his weapons on the battlefield. The Ram Muay (prefight dance) is a direct throwback to Krabri Krabong. Many of the traditions of Muay Thai are maintained to keep the sport aspect linked to the battlefield where weapons were used.

This is pretty interesting. I'm wondering what kind of similarities would exist from this system and something like the Jujutsu the Samurai trained. For the life of me I can't remember the clan that invaded Okinawa around the 13th Century? Seemed like those Jutsu arts mixed well with the indigenous Te arts in Okinawa. Would be interesting to see the similarities and the differences and how/why they developed that way.

 

[ballen0351]

Nevermind I'll save the mods the trouble.

 

[James Kovacich]

Why? I can put anything I want on the internet, what's the point? But I'm up for a friendly meetup with any other martial artists to train while I'm in the Washington DC area if anyone wants.

If you were "someone" like you think you are we could "google" you. Get it? There's nothing for us to google, that's why your afraid be "straight up" and use your real name. As long as you hide behind your hollow profile your just another mma wannabe. That's the fight game, you make a name, you made it. Or you at least get fights and start working your way up. Just training in an mma gym (at least thats what you say you do) dosent make you anything. You haven't really fought anyone yet, your a wannabe. If you had you'd named names long ago. There's nobody to name, correct?

Or you can prove yourself and your wealth of knowledge.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Think Mike Tyson's fists will become useless and he wouldn't know what to do if someone attacks him .... should he one day decides to wear all of this gear on and becomes a mall ninja?

You are again comparing apples and oranges and then coming up with advocados. To begin with, Mike Tyson was a boxer. I've boxed before and my grandfather was Golden Gloves. I don't remember that training going into cover and concealment. I don't recall it covering escape and evasion or door entry, room clearing or the fatal funnel. As I remember, boxing covered the jab, cross, uppercut, bobbing and weaving and various other applicable subjet matter that dealt with the rules of boxing. And, in a boxing match the opponent is doing the same thing. Not much chance he's going to pull a knife on you or a gun or improvised weapon. Not much chance his buddies are going to jump in either. A boxing ring is a flat, padded, level surface that is dry and well lit. It also comes with a referee and corner men. And of course you have a minute break every three minutes. The battlefield (or the street) comes in all sorts of user-unfriendly environments from sloping landscape, slippery, muddy, wet, hot, cold, snow, rain, dim or no lights and enemies that don't follow rules and want to kill you or cause you as much damage as humanly possible in as short of time as possible. So once again, boxing, or MMA, or sport TKD or fencing etc are great for the venue in which they were designed but have very little to no carry-over into the battlefield (or street).

Certain elements can be used but again they are limited. For example, using your boxing example; boxing is great in the ring, when your hand is wrapped and you're wearing gloves to protect them. But punching someone in the face with a bare hand in the battlefield (or street) isn't the best option for a variety of reasons. First, the chance of self injury is high, particularly when punching the head/face. Injuring your own hand limits your options i.e. using a cell phone to call for help, handling car/house keys to escape the situation, address possible injuries, further defend yourself, access improvised weapons, manipulate a firearm (loading, reloading, clearing malfunction) etc. Secondly, the head/face bleed pretty freely. If you've injured your own hand and bleed your attacker you now have to be concerned with blood-borne pathagens. This is a bigger hazard than people realize! An attacker is by definition a bad guy. Bad guys spend time in correctional facilities. Correctional facilities have a higher incident of stuff you'd rather not have. These are very real considerations. Thus utilizing boxing skills outside of a controlled environment isn't the best or most suitable option. As the old adage goes, 'if all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail'.

Also, boxers tend to wear very loose fitting shorts and are warmed up and stretched out prior to engaging in their sport (at a pre-appointed time and place). Soldiers on the battlefield (or officers or citizens in the street) don't have that luxury. We tend to go from 0-100 in the blink of an eye and have to deal with possible adrenaline induced physiological responses i.e. tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, flinch response, OODA loop etc. Sport training doesn't fully (if at all) address these aspects of critical response training. So while Mike Tyson is/was a great boxer and puncher in that environment, put him in full battle gear or what I wear on-duty every day and then have something kick off eleven hours into a 12-hours shift and have him ONLY use his boxing training and he'll be at a disadvantage. There are better options and better training.

I dunno. Maybe your young? Maybe you feel picked on here? Maybe you feel you're backed into a corner? Maybe a combination? My advice to you is to simply chill out a bit. Consider the possibility that you're wrong. You have people here that have done MMA telling you that you're incorrect on many/all of your offerings. You have people here that have done things in real life that most have only seen in video games and on T.V. telling you that many/all of your offerings are incorrect. Maybe...just maybe we're right and your not. Perhaps, instead of sarcastic remarks in return, you should carefully consider what has been said to you and learn from it. Enthusiasm for ones art or MMA is commendable. But being open to what it is, what it is not and the experience of others is more commedable. Being friendly and showing a willingness to learn from others is wisdom. Tossing back sarcasm is simply a quick way to getting booted from the board. No one here is your enemy...so don't make them your enemy. Be open and learn. Your choice.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

To put a positive note into the conversation that is positive towards MMA training...conditioning. This is a great carry-over to the battlefield/street. Conditioning helps us win a confrontation as well as deal with physological response to critical stress situations. I also helps deal with any injuries that may have been sustained.

So +1 for what a MMA or sport art has to offer that is applicable.

 

[arnisador]

Didn't Mike Tyson bust up his hand when he hit a parking lot attendant in the head?

 

[chinto]

one person said that in UFC 1 to 4 there were no safety rules about kicks to the head when down, and things. Wrong!! all the UFC were sanctioned bouts! fighter safety is by law required!! besides UFC was meant to showcase BJJ.. Battlefield/SD arts such as Okinawan Karate, or Kungfu are much more effective then ring/sport styles. this is because there is not any consideration for the other guys safety when taught properly. Sports are sports, for entertainment and making money. War, and self defense arts are about disable or kill the attackers, ( note multiple attackers involved, they never come in singles in that situation) and TKO and such is not really a consideration. if you can disable enough to get away good enough. completely different mind set and goal for war and self defense then for sport. one is survival, the other for fun.

 

[Aiki Lee]

When comparing battlefield to sport versions of art it might help to have a specific example. So let's compare kendo and kenjutsu. If a classically trained swordsman tried competing in kendo without prior kendo experience he'd likely lose because his technique and tactics don't reflect the environment.
In real swordsmanship you must swing utilizing your whole body to get a powerful cut to slice through clothing, armor, flesh and bone. Moving this way is how you move powerfully but it is slower than how kendoka move because kendoka have to simply make clean contact and power is not as important as speed. So in kendo you get smaller actions that can be used faster to win matches. If they wielded real swords these movements would not always result in dating anyone seriously.

So because the rules in kendo say that you can only strike certain targets, technique and tactics are reflected by this and it no longer resembles the swordsmanship schools kendo is based on. Neither is better than the other; they were both developed for the environments they were meant to be developed for. Strategy on the battlefield relies on your ability to do something that the enemy does not expect and can't prepare for. In sports your strategy is limited to what can be confined within the rules.

Then you have to look at the difference between what is a "Battlefield art" and what is a "personal combat art". If you look at something like certain koryu, much of their strategic approach is meant to be applied as a leader in warfare such as how do you guide troop movements or how to properly position your archers your pikemen or your Calvary. Something like traditional karate however would be more along the lines of personal combat or self-defense. Karate is traditionally designs to make the practitioner as powerful as possible so that they can defend themselves and others around them from violent attack. It is not a battlefield art primarily because the weapons used in carate are not designed for Battlefield use. Sai, tonfa, and nunchaku are not effective battlefield weapons because they are too short. They are effective weapons for personal combat, for defense of self and others. Then you can look at something like kukishin ryu which has elements of both personal combat and Battlefield arts. If you look at the way they train with the spear for example you can see how one specific kata would have strategies useful both for one-on-one combat or an army against an army.

if you cannot take the strategies taught in an arts and apply it to large groups of people then it is not a battlefield art, it's likely personal combat. Sport martial arts have no connection whatsoever to Battlefield arts as they were practiced when they were developed. Both sport and Battlefield arts share a commonality with personal combat arts with the concept of a duel being where they come together. Duels may or may not use weapons and may or may not have agreed upon rules. The more rules you have the more limited your strategic approach can be, and your opponent is less likely to be caught offguard by something they're not expecting.

 

[James Kovacich]

one person said that in UFC 1 to 4 there were no safety rules about kicks to the head when down, and things. Wrong!! all the UFC were sanctioned bouts! fighter safety is by law required!! besides UFC was meant to showcase BJJ.. Battlefield/SD arts such as Okinawan Karate, or Kungfu are much more effective then ring/sport styles. this is because there is not any consideration for the other guys safety when taught properly. Sports are sports, for entertainment and making money. War, and self defense arts are about disable or kill the attackers, ( note multiple attackers involved, they never come in singles in that situation) and TKO and such is not really a consideration. if you can disable enough to get away good enough. completely different mind set and goal for war and self defense then for sport. one is survival, the other for fun.

Actually nobody would sanction any of the early UFC's. UFC 1's rules were no biting and no eye gouging. On the eve of UFC 12, 36 states enacted a ban on no holds barred fighting. Football kicks to the head, groin shots and hairpulling all existed in the early UFC's. From UFC 12 on the rules became more and more present including making gloves mandatory not optional, no more kicks to the head of a downed opponent and the banning of strikes to the back of the neck and head, headbutting, small-joint manipulations, and groin strikes. The IFC was the 1st to secure sanctioning in 2000. And Zuffa secured UFC's sanctioning in 2001, 8 years after UFC 1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima...p#Controversy_and_reform_.E2.80.93_late_1990s

 

[Mz1]

If you were "someone" like you think you are we could "google" you. Get it?

Show me where claimed such. I even said that I was merely an amateur fighter/hobbyist.

There's nothing for us to google, that's why your afraid be "straight up" and use your real name. As long as you hide behind your hollow profile your just another mma wannabe. That's the fight game, you make a name, you made it. Or you at least get fights and start working your way up. Just training in an mma gym (at least thats what you say you do) dosent make you anything. You haven't really fought anyone yet, your a wannabe. If you had you'd named names long ago. There's nobody to name, correct?

You seem to be reading way too much into what I post. Can you show me where I implied any of what you just made up about me? Otherwise you're just making up lies.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
Let's try to remember that discussion here is supposed to be friendly, OK? Avoid attacking the poster, and focus on the subject matter of the post.

 

[Mz1]

one person said that in UFC 1 to 4 there were no safety rules about kicks to the head when down, and things. Wrong!! all the UFC were sanctioned bouts! fighter safety is by law required!!

You are way off and should do your research first. I have all of these early UFCS in AVI. Early UFC's were never sanctioned. This was why they only held it in Colorado, Alabama, etc. Then there was outcries of brutality, probably started by Nevada's sanctioning bodies due to them not getting a piece of the action. Congressmen such as John McCain started pushing for the banning of the UFC and similar MMA organizations such as EFC, WCC, etc. Which even caused the UFC to go over to Japan and Brazil in order to conduct their tournaments.

UFC 1-4 allowed all head stomping, soccer kicking of heads of downed opponents, etc. Elbows to the back of the head was allowed. Headbutting, groin shots, etc. Throat strikes and eye jabs were fine....pretty much anything goes. Only eye gouging, fish hooking and biting caused a fine of $1,000 per infraction but did not stop the fight nor disqualified the fighter. The purse was $60,000 so that was more than enough to pay for these $1k infractions but still made it worthwhile should the fighters had to risk using such anti-rape tactics in order to win or get out of submissions.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=254&attachmentid=17505

besides UFC was meant to showcase BJJ..

Can you prove this? It's not BJJ's fault that it whooped up on all of those oblivious to ground fighting, including Judokas, wreslters, shoot-fighters, etc. who Gracie dominated.

Battlefield/SD arts such as Okinawan Karate, or Kungfu are much more effective then ring/sport styles. t

How does an MMA fighter knocking you out and then stomping on your unconscious head until your skull caves in while on the battlefield not effective?

 

[Mz1]

Didn't Mike Tyson bust up his hand when he hit a parking lot attendant in the head?

yea, after he broke the other PRO Boxer's face. the average guy (who's not even close to what an amateur fighter can endure) probably wouldn't require more than 40% of Tyson's power to send them running home crying or KO'ed so that shouldn't be a problem for Tyson to worry about in terms of breaking his hand.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Didn't Mike Tyson bust up his hand when he hit a parking lot attendant in the head?

Yes sir. This is a good example of what can happen, even to a seasoned fighter who at one time had reached the height of his sport. Translate this over to the battlefield where soldiers wear helmets, flak jackets etc and we can see where closed-hand boxing-style strikes would be ill advised. Always looking back at WWII combatives as a solid guideline (and not the only armed services guideline) we can see things like the chin jab were advocated against enemy soldiers when in a H2H situation. Safer on the hand and the results were just as devastating, perhaps even more so.

Translated into a street situation, we have the possibility of having to defend ourselves from a 'trusty of modern chemistry'. Right now bath salts and K2 are whacking people out big time. I fought a 20-something 'kid' just recently high on K2 that nearly stabbed his own mother to death. Pain wasn't something that made much of an impression on him. And often times, strikes that would ordinarily be a knock-out don't faze them. I've seen repeated groin strikes laughed off as the BG was tossing Deputies around. A 'self-injury due to an ill advised strike is NOT in our best interest. It may take repeated strikes to defend ourselves or set the attacker up for something more devastating such as taking their air/sight/mobility. While a perp high on whatever may laugh off O.C. spray, a 'knock-out' punch or a kick to the jewels they aren't going to laugh off something that destroys a joint (limits mobility)/throat strike (air)/eyes (sight). This of course is situational and only when necessary but it is an increasingly frequent happening unfortunately. This is a time for effective, high percentage techniques that don't put us at further risk of injury/self-injury or tie us up in one position (such as sport ground fighting or fighting as though we're sparring). Statistically speaking, on average an altercation lasts seven seconds with injury occurring in the first three seconds. This does not take into account firearms/battlefield conditions.

Again, just food for thought

 

[Flying Crane]

Didn't Mike Tyson bust up his hand when he hit a parking lot attendant in the head?

was that the metacarpals on the pinkie side? if so, it's the classic "boxer's fracture".