Ring vs battlefield versions of MAs

[Kong Soo Do]

If you want to talk about realism then, pretend fighting and not sparring for full knockouts on a regular basis is a lot more deficient in testing out whether you're worth anything when that time comes.

Are you assuming that what I teach is pretend fighting? Or is this a general statement?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Most combat vets in the past 20 years never even fought hand to hand to the death on the battlefield. Most never even swung their rifles nor stabbed anyone with their bayonets. Which is why the military doesn't even waste too much time focusing on H2H. Why would it when they've got M4's and 200+ rounds of ammo, grenades, air support, etc.

Can you supply the data for this conclusion please? Thank you.

 

[Cayuga Karate]

Mz1 wrote:

The MMA fighting that lead to the KO or to the ref stoppage is no different than trying to kill someone on the battlefield with your bare hands. Choking someone out is, trying to kill them. If it were on the battlefield, the same choke would kill them just as well as the multiple soccer kicks to their head once KO'ed or something. Fighting is fighting.

Please give an example, any example, of soldiers on the battlefield trying to kill with their "bare hands".

Fighting is not fighting. You can say it again, and again, but it doesn't make it true. There are all sorts of fighting from gentle pushes to nuclear strikes, and everything in between.

Soldiers are trained to fight with weapons. They are not trained to fight with their bare hands. If they are so misfortunate to lose their weapon, or run out of ammunition, their goal will be survival, and any empty hand fighting would not be to kill the enemy or inflict damage on the enemy, but to escape until they can re-arm.

Soldiers are trained in H2H combat, WITH WEAPONS. Special forces learn knife fighting because sometimes stealth is critical to the success of a mission, and nothing gives you away like an M16 firing a few rounds. And even with a rifle, you can run out of ammunition, so you still have a weapon, a hand held weapon, or one to be fixed to the end of a rifle.

But when a soldier runs out of ammunition, a soldier fights with a knife.

You can repeat your ideas again and again, that fighting is fighting, that fighting with fists is related to fighting with deadly weapons. It's not true. It's never been true, and your repetition of it will not make it true.

Men have been fighting men "on the battlefield" for scores of thousands of years. Those that used weapons prevailed. Those that fought bare-handed against those with weapons were killed.

In battlefield combat, there are teams of soldiers fighting teams of soldiers. If, in the most unlikeliest of cases, I run out of ammo, and you run out of ammo, we can both go charge each other and duke it out, but be certain, the guys on my side, and the guys on your side have a big say in how long our fight lasts. One of us, maybe both of us is about to be shot.

There is no bare-knuckles brawling in warfare. Warfare utilizes deadly weapons. Period.

 

[Tez3]

It's all about you right? I never said anything about you, because how could I when you've been trying to tell me how you're this hotshot MMA coach who coaches and corrects Pro MMA fighters all the time.



You're funny, like Joe Pesci.



Maybe that explains why we have UFC title holders and top contenders. Do you have any?



Wait, I'm Mr. Angry? And are we allowed to use this term, "cocksure"?



You're just making this up now. Show me where I said that I was the only one who knows MMA. If you have a problem with people who don't agree with most of the things you say, maybe it'll be better for your blood pressure to not read public forums. Or just put me on ignore. You're the one who sought out my posts to respond directly to them. I usually don't even bother reading what you post unless it quotes my posts.



You even typed out "martial arts versus their sports counterparts" yet you're complaining about how I "continue to drag this back to MMA"???



Ok, then stop engaging in dialogue with me.

Dear boy, you amuse me no end and yes 'cocksure' is a legitimate English word. I'm a 'hotshot MMA coach'? nice of you to say so but you are wrong of course, I coach, promote, ref, corner and judge so not much then. I think it must make you fret somehow that a woman can do this lol, I've been do it for over 12 years now. As for the UFc thing, well since you mention it yes we do have a couple or four or maybe five UFC fighters here, yes I do know them though don't coach them, have however had them on our fight nights, we even though whether it's worth a boast or not had Bispings first pro fight on our shows. He wasn't up to much though his attitude was suitable for the UFC rofl.

MMA is the sport it doesn't have a battlefield equivalant, surely you realise that? People here are giving you the benefit of the doubt, trying to engage with you and all they get back is anger and insults. You can insult me all day, doesn't affect my blood pressure, might make fall off my chair laughing but really, the good people here deserve much better than your bile.

 

[Mz1]

Dear boy, you amuse me no end and yes 'cocksure' is a legitimate English word. I'm a 'hotshot MMA coach'? nice of you to say so but you are wrong of course, I coach, promote, ref, corner and judge so not much then. I think it must make you fret somehow that a woman can do this lol, I've been do it for over 12 years now. As for the UFc thing, well since you mention it yes we do have a couple or four or maybe five UFC fighters here, yes I do know them though don't coach them, have however had them on our fight nights, we even though whether it's worth a boast or not had Bispings first pro fight on our shows. He wasn't up to much though his attitude was suitable for the UFC rofl.

MMA is the sport it doesn't have a battlefield equivalant, surely you realise that? People here are giving you the benefit of the doubt, trying to engage with you and all they get back is anger and insults. You can insult me all day, doesn't affect my blood pressure, might make fall off my chair laughing but really, the good people here deserve much better than your bile.

You're welcome.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The MMA fighting that lead to the KO or to the ref stoppage is no different than trying to kill someone on the battlefield with your bare hands.

Hmm, advocating punching someone to the head to 'KO' them...when they're likely to be wearing a helmet. I don't like your chances.

Choking someone out is, trying to kill them. If it were on the battlefield, the same choke would kill them...

Hmmm, advocating trying to choke out someone on the battlefield...while wearing combat gear...while they're wearing combat gear...which requires both arms...which means you've put down your primary weapon...which means your unarmed and a stationary target...I don't like your chances.

 

[Mz1]

Absolutely yes! As I've mentioned before, a L.E. statistic is that an average fight (and I'm talking a real world fight with an attacker and someone the attacker believes is a victim) last 7 seconds with injury occurring in the first 3 seconds. This is very close to the above military study.

C'mon, that's probably counting most of the reported cases of thugs suckerpunching someone for their wallet, which takes 1 second. Two fatties fighting, will also run out of breath in 10 secs. Then there are times when weapons are involved. What's being argued here are TWO trained and experienced fighters that are equally matched, fighting. If you have fought in the ring/cage before, you'd know that it's not that easy to even drop someone, let alone KO them with your ninja-strikes so easily.

Again, absolutely yes! One point along this line is joint manipulation. Before 'manipulation' was joint 'destruction'. The arts mentioned above and a plethora of others are designed to end the fight as quickly as possible by whatever method is appropriate to the situation.

The tough part is, getting a hold of a trained fighter's joint while he's trying to knock you out.

 

[Mz1]

Hmm, advocating punching someone to the head to 'KO' them...when they're likely to be wearing a helmet. I don't like your chances.

Hmmm, advocating trying to choke out someone on the battlefield...while wearing combat gear...while they're wearing combat gear...which requires both arms...which means you've put down your primary weapon...which means your unarmed and a stationary target...I don't like your chances.

You must be against what the US Marines teaches then:

Btw, these guys are pretty sloppy. I'm really starting to think that some of you guys lied about your service in the military as you don't seem to know much about what's being taught there.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What's being argued here are TWO trained and experienced fighters that are equally matched, fighting.

No, what's being discussed here is the feasibility of sport MMA on the battlefield, and by extension, the street. The concensus is that it isn't feasible.

The tough part is, getting a hold of a trained fighter's joint while he's trying to knock you out.

Actually, at this juncture we weren't discussing MMA. However, it doesn't seem to be that difficult as joint locks happen all the time, particularly in MMA competitions.

I've asked you a couple of questions in posts (posts #141 and #142) on this page. Perhaps you've overlooked them? I'd appreciate your answers to those two questions. Thank you.

 

[Mz1]

if as you say the rules were such, and I do not believe it, then the fighters agreed among themselves not to strike things like throats and not to cripple or kill.

I just showed you a video of of a Karateka (Keith Hackney) punching Jo Son about 6x in his nuts, repeatedly (UFC-4). Then I posted a screen capture another Karateka kicking a Sumo in the face while he's down (UFC-2). What more do you want? UFC rules are all documented in words and videos. You're being absurd.

REAL FIGHTS LAST SECONDS! The military did a study from the time two men saw each other till a fight to the death was over in a hand to hand encounter was an averidge of less then 15 seconds! sport fights are just that. if you do not believe that look at fights in prisons and places. Even when an edged weapon is not involved its short and nasty. look at all the manslaughter cases out of drunken bar fights by untrained people that go to conviction every year in every state! people are a lot less unbreakable then you think.

Try to follow the context of my argument. I'm arguing H2H fights between 2 trained and experienced fighters, not 2 sloppy drunks who knocks each other out on the street or 2 fatties that can't last more than 10 seconds. Then there are suckerpunches, weapons and crap.

So if as you say there were not any rules really, then the fighters themselves were effectively making them. I garentee you that most martial arts teach you techniques that kill very readily. Jujitsu, yes, Karate, yes, Kung fu, yes and the list goes on!

Your problem is, you've never fought in the ring/cage nor have sparred for full knockouts before. You don't know what it's like when someone who's equally skilled is trying to hurt you during hard sparring. Maybe you tap spar, but that's obviously not the same. You just train your ninja-strikes and then try it out on your training partners lightly, like a punch to the throat.....and you're like, damn this hurts even at light power...so it will kill someone. Do you think I care about hitting my opponent in the throat? I just aim for the general area of the face/chin with my straight punches, and whatever I hit is good to me, including his throat. Even during hard sparring. Sorry about that, shouldn't keep your chin so high up. Never dropped anybody nor been dropped by a strike to the throat, including spinning back fists that lands to the throat. Didn't even stop the fight. Just a slight sore throat the next day that went away on its own.

 

[SacredCoconut]

Every soldier should carry knife, so there is little chance it will be hand to hand.

 

[Mz1]

Hehe.

Theyre wearing gear, therefore it isnt brutal. Right.

I asked the other guy to name any other fighting venue that is more brutal than UFC 1-4 since 1993 until now and in the USA.....and you showed me some sloppy Russian tournament with a lot more gear on than the UFC 1-4 that looked like some average, local fighting event. How is this more brutal than the UFC's especially UFC 1-4?

Ridiculously sloppy is where im amused. I thought experience in HARD SPARRING FOR KOS was more important than technique, according to you?

This is why I keep telling you that you're not a fighter. You automatically assume that hard sparring for KO's means crazy brawling and out of control. Do you think this is brawling and out of control? This is called AVERAGE sparring in Boxing.

And it isnt in the USA, im aware of that. But it is something ongoing to the present day, unlike the old UFC. And im comparing the old UFC to it.

Well compared to the UFC today, what you posted looked like amateur hour. Early UFC's were amateur hour too compared to the UFC's now, mainly due to so many TMA's trying their luck out in those early UFC's and getting clobbered.

But based on the argument of how no other tournaments in the USA at that time, ever allowed all sorts of ninja-strikes, anti-rape moves and other garden variety SD sales points.....as compared to UFC 1-4 which allowed such....including eye, nuts, and throat strikes, etc. Finger breaking, pressure points, head butting, spinal cord attacks, clawing, whatever. Even biting, eye gouging and fishhooking didn't DQ a fighter. And your rebuttal was some Russian Storm Fighting where they wore a bunch of safety gear.

Also, they dont always wear that much gear, and theyre allowed to hit each other in the back of the head, and the back.

So did the early UFC's. THey only made it illegal due to McCain's bill that would outlaw such UFC tourneys. It was a compromise to keep the UFC going.

Video 1 is less gear, video 2 is a higher level competition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqvtcLjI23c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvPDXxXPEs4&list=FLT1x1p77Z4dyVVMwU-dj07Q

I don't even know how you can even try to say that these are anywhere close to any UFC's in terms of brutality. They look like intermediates of average Muay Thai gyms.

They also do sticks, knives, and a bunch of other stuff. Like bayonets.

This is nothing new to the Dog Brothers Gatherings, except that the skill level at DBG's are much higher.

Last one, but also the most important one:

It has the most kicks to the head when someones down, hits to the spine and back of the head, etc.
And i believe 1 or 2 neck cranks.
Also knees to the head, chokes with elbows, and so on and so forth.

So did early UFC's. And what a surprise, the fights in your video didn't result in any deaths. Not even KO's. And they all certainly lasted longer than 7 seconds. Plenty of crazy brawling though.

 

[Mz1]

No, what's being discussed here is the feasibility of sport MMA on the battlefield, and by extension, the street. The concensus is that it isn't feasible.

US Marines. Why are they training like MMA then? Dodging this won't make it go away.

 

[Mz1]

Mz1 wrote:

Please give an example, any example, of soldiers on the battlefield trying to kill with their "bare hands".

Fighting is not fighting. You can say it again, and again, but it doesn't make it true. There are all sorts of fighting from gentle pushes to nuclear strikes, and everything in between.

Soldiers are trained to fight with weapons. They are not trained to fight with their bare hands. If they are so misfortunate to lose their weapon, or run out of ammunition, their goal will be survival, and any empty hand fighting would not be to kill the enemy or inflict damage on the enemy, but to escape until they can re-arm.

Soldiers are trained in H2H combat, WITH WEAPONS. Special forces learn knife fighting because sometimes stealth is critical to the success of a mission, and nothing gives you away like an M16 firing a few rounds. And even with a rifle, you can run out of ammunition, so you still have a weapon, a hand held weapon, or one to be fixed to the end of a rifle.

You should tell the US Marines this then, as it looks like they're doing MMA....sloppily:

 

[Mz1]

Are you assuming that what I teach is pretend fighting? Or is this a general statement?

I don't think that you put your chin and techniques to the test by not wearing a full motorcycle looking helmet/headgear and allowing your students to try to knock you out while sparring them.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by Kong Soo Do
Are you assuming that what I teach is pretend fighting? Or is this a general statement?

I don't think that you put your chin and techniques to the test by not wearing a full motorcycle looking helmet/headgear and allowing your students to try to knock you out while sparring them.

Would you mind clarifying what you're saying, you're using a double negative. We don't wear motorcycle looking helmets.

And you haven't answered my second question to you from. Would you do so please, thank you.

 

[ballen0351]

I wonder if these guys are real fighters or more of that fake asian pretend fighting?

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't think that you put your chin and techniques to the test by not wearing a full motorcycle looking helmet/headgear and allowing your students to try to knock you out while sparring them.

All real deal mma schools have a website. Please post the link to your school so we can check it out. We understand you don't fill out your profile because as you said your an mma hobbyist. But we still would like to see where you train.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ballen0351]

He PMed me a gym as I'm local to him claiming it was his gym. I don't know his name so i couldnt ask if he went there but I did call the gym and asked about this KO sparring and this street fight rules crap he posted. I was told "we are Professional gym and would not condone or allow that behavior here".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:

Please note that Mz1 is no longer a member here.