Ring vs battlefield versions of MAs

[Danny T]

...nor did they even swung their rifles nor stab someone with their bayonets. They shoot their rifles, not go around chopsockying.

You are correct many didn't, however you are incorrect in that many did. I was involved in helping training groups going into Iraq who were training for house to house urban warfare. We trained these in the use of the bolo. The first person on an entry carried a bolo. Haven't seen any bolos at the more than 300 MMA bouts I've witness. Not as yet. Oh that's right bladed weapons aren't used in MMA.

Sports training in MMA is more rigorous than what the military teaches for H2H. The military doesn't even spend that much time focusing on H2H because the rifle is the primary weapon. Soldiers just go through some basic H2H training and stabbing at dummies. How is this even close to MMA training?

Correct again that is why the training is different and specific.

They shoot it out.

That is also correct and again the training is designed for that type of fighting. It is fighting non the less.

There are plenty of soldiers in our gym can't fight worth a squat and some are scared to death of getting hit hard in the face.

Oh they can fight; it's just that they are trained to fight in a different manner and on a modern day battlefield. As to getting hit in the face. I don't know anyone and I mean I don't know anyone who likes it or really enjoys getting hit in the face. It something we simply have learned to take as a part of the training.

Many don't even dare come into Boxing class because it's usually sparring for KO's in there.

I wouldn't either! Sparring is not about KOs. If your sparring is causing KO's that part of the training is foolish. Sparring should be hard yet controlled, there are injuries in training but causing KO's causes the fighter to not be able to train due to concussions. Anyway, this is for another discussion.

 

[Aiki Lee]

The difference between battlefield arts and sporting arts are that the strategies and tactics are deveoped for different reasons. Techniques can be pretty much the same, but martial arts are not about techniques. Sport fighting is in a controlled environment and the strategies for winning in competitions are limited because of it. In the battlefield and in self defense there are less limitations on how you can engage the enemy or what your objectives are because they will not be predefined.
In sports you and your opponent play the same game with things being as fair as possible. Similar weight, agreed upon rules, similar experiences and so on. On the battlefield the goal is to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible and make the fight as one sided as possible. There are huge differences between the two.

 

[Mz1]

You are correct many didn't, however you are incorrect in that many did. I was involved in helping training groups going into Iraq who were training for house to house urban warfare. We trained these in the use of the bolo. The first person on an entry carried a bolo. Haven't seen any bolos at the more than 300 MMA bouts I've witness. Not as yet. Oh that's right bladed weapons aren't used in MMA.

Most didn't even use it because they shot them instead. It's absurd to bring in weapon if it's discussing about H2H. No one is disputing that a weapon gives someone a huge advantage.

Correct again that is why the training is different and specific.

That's why they suck H2H when coming into our MMA gym.

That is also correct and again the training is designed for that type of fighting. It is fighting non the less.

No one is disputing this. It's just ridiculous to bring in weapons in a H2H argument. Some pushing buttons to launch missiles or even nukes don't even need to train anything physical yet still beat any soldiers on the field easily.

Oh they can fight; it's just that they are trained to fight in a different manner and on a modern day battlefield. As to getting hit in the face. I don't know anyone and I mean I don't know anyone who likes it or really enjoys getting hit in the face. It something we simply have learned to take as a part of the training.

Well you just admitted that you don't spar hard for KO's then, because it really is enjoyable and part of the fun to get hit hard in the face.

I wouldn't either! Sparring is not about KOs. If your sparring is causing KO's that part of the training is foolish. Sparring should be hard yet controlled, there are injuries in training but causing KO's causes the fighter to not be able to train due to concussions. Anyway, this is for another discussion.

Ok, so you're afraid to spar hard for KO's, that's fine. I'm not surprised based on your responses. We wear headgear. Yes, concussions do happen. This is part of being a fighter. You're more of a health & fitness and maybe some Asian fetish-type martial artist. I respect that. Just don't try to tell me how we shouldn't be sparring for KO's when you're not a fighter. Obviously you've never been in an MMA fighting gym. Heck, boxers have been sparring for KO's REGULARLY.....forever now and way before the UFC or MMA hit the scene. This is nothing unusual. Yet people who never fought before usually freak out when I purposefully use this phrase, "sparring for KO's".

This is average sparring in Boxing right here.....and this is LA Boxing, where it's mostly overweight women who comes in to hit the bag (sloppily) set to music, not even a hardcore Boxing gym.

 

[Mz1]

Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. We're talking about one training methodology being used for a different venue. Has nothing to do with how rigorous the training is or isn't. You're proving my point every time you mention the weapons that are used and the environments they are used in and during. MMA sport training doesn't cover this because that isn't part of the MMA venue or training methodology. I don't know any other way to explain it. MMA training isn't sufficient for a soldier, officer or private citizen if and when the goal is killing the enemy or self-defense.

No, it's waste of time to train a soldier in MMA when they've got assault weapons. Although the military is actually bringing in some MMA.

Fighting is fighting. The average soldier also sucks with their stabbing and clubbing weapon (which is usually just their field knife or rifle + bayonet) compared to a trained Martial Artist also.

This is my point, the military doesn't waste a lot of time training soldiers H2H because they've got their freakin' assault rifle with 200+ rounds of ammo.....which is why they suck at it compared to an experienced MMA fighters. With bayonets, they'll lose to a skilled fat guy who's experienced with piercing weapons too.

You're making this comment to someone you've never met, nor know their qualifications or level of experience. If you did you'd know how 'silly' your statement is. :uhohh:

I go by what you post and what you post exposes many truths.

 

[Tez3]

I see we are going with the old scriptwriters adage here 'when you're on shaky ground get loud'. of course Mz is the only one who knows anything about anything, we should I suppose all salute him for his sagacity and wisdom.
Attacking the poster as being the one who knows nothing isn't new, isn't even clever and doesn't even raise a smile, more a shake of the head and a sigh.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That's why they suck H2H when coming into our MMA gym.

The average soldier also sucks with their stabbing and clubbing weapon...

...which is why they suck at it compared to an experienced MMA fighters.

Your limited experience in no way qualifies you to stereotype soldiers. And yet once again, you've missed the point entirely. Rather than a snotty reply, you need to open your mind to the experiences of others on this board even if they are not in agreement with you. You like MMA, we get that. Nothing wrong with that. But your testosterone induced rage isn't backed up my any practical experience and/or understanding of the topic in this thread.

It's absurd to bring in weapon if it's discussing about H2H.

This discussion isn't about H2H. It is about a sport martial art being sufficient for a soldier in the battlefield (and by extension an officer and a private citizen for self-defense). As such, weapons HAVE to be brought into the discussion because that is a necessary tool for the battlefield that MMA doesn't cover. This doesn't diminish MMA. It just isn't the training it provides.

You go on and on about how tough you are. Hey, that's great. But being tough in a controlled, weapon-free environment with an opponent that has to abide by the same rules as you, and you get a nice break every so often, and a pep talk and advice, and can tap out if it gets a little too tough for you is quite a bit different from the battlefield or the street. If you can't understand that at this point then you're not here to learn, you're here to argue a flawed opinion.

No, it's waste of time to train a soldier in MMA when they've got assault weapons.

Yep. But since tools (i.e. weapons) can fail AND since CQC is part of the occupation (which has been explained to you in this thread) then H2H is necessary for the soldier. It doesn't need to be complicated, just effective. And statistically speaking, it is very effective. WWII combatives, as explained to you before, is possibly 'the' most effective H2H system ever devised. Simple, quick, gross motor skilled, retained in long term memory and bloody brutal. Would it work in MMA? Nope, doesn't abide by artificial rule sets.

This is my point, the military doesn't waste a lot of time training soldiers H2H because they've got their freakin' assault rifle with 200+ rounds of ammo.....

They don't have to waste their time. What they train in doesn't take a lot of time to learn. Ask a Marine that's gone through the belt program.

I go by what you post and what you post exposes many truths.

Thanks, I think. I post my experience. And since what I teach works in the real world, for military, police, corrections, E.P. Agents and private citizens I'd say that gives me some perspective you should listen to. And there are quite a few members in this thread that have a plethora of experience on all sides that have tried to provide food for thought to you. Whether you actually consider their experience or not is up to you.

 

[ballen0351]

That's why they suck H2H when coming into our MMA gym.

they suck at MMA rules fighting. there is a difference between fighting by the rules and fighting for your life. Now you may spar as close to reality as you can but as you already said you cant fight to the death at the dojo. I think thats where thedisconnect I have with what your saying is. Even in super agressive sparring there ae others around to make sure nobody dies. you dont do things like bite or claw at someones eyes or genitals they are against the rules but are expected in h2h fights to the death whiich is what combat is about.

Ok, so you're afraid to spar hard for KO's, that's fine. I'm not surprised based on your responses. We wear headgear. Yes, concussions do happen. This is part of being a fighter. You're more of a health & fitness and maybe some Asian fetish-type martial artist. I respect that.

here again is where i think your being a little extream. just because people dont spar for the KO does not mean they are afraid. I dont spar like that because I dont need too I know I can KO someone, I dont need to prove it to anyone in training. Plus I dont want to be knocked out it hurts I have a real job I go to the next day. Do accidents happen sure have I gotten hurt training yep it happens but no need to try to do it. If your knockin people out your causing perm. brain trauma. repeated brain trauma leads to bad thiings when your older. Thats why the NFL is cracking down on big hits not because platers are affraid but because they see the damage done to the brains of older players.

 

[Dirty Dog]

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MT Moderator

 

[Mz1]

thanks, nothing wrong with cheerleading/ring-girl.

 

[James Kovacich]

Where does MMA fit in? Maybe 1 grain of sand on the beach.

http://topontech.com/military-tech/commandos-seals/duane-dieter-cqd-training/


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[Mz1]

Your limited experience in no way qualifies you to stereotype soldiers.

Not limited, vast. So many soldiers in our gym.

And yet once again, you've missed the point entirely. Rather than a snotty reply, you need to open your mind to the experiences of others on this board even if they are not in agreement with you.

Oh but you can do the same yet not snotty right? Quite hypocritical of you.

You like MMA, we get that. Nothing wrong with that. But your testosterone induced rage isn't backed up my any practical experience and/or understanding of the topic in this thread.

Says you. And weird how you interpret what I type as rage. If I'm raging then you're raging too.

This discussion isn't about H2H. It is about a sport martial art being sufficient for a soldier in the battlefield (and by extension an officer and a private citizen for self-defense). As such, weapons HAVE to be brought into the discussion because that is a necessary tool for the battlefield that MMA doesn't cover. This doesn't diminish MMA. It just isn't the training it provides.

The point is, the military does not waste time focusing on H2H when they have assault rifles. Which explains why their H2h is nowhere close to an MMA fighter nor are their bayonet fighting anywhere close to trained swordsman.

You go on and on about how tough you are. Hey, that's great. But being tough in a controlled, weapon-free environment with an opponent that has to abide by the same rules as you, and you get a nice break every so often, and a pep talk and advice, and can tap out if it gets a little too tough for you is quite a bit different from the battlefield or the street. If you can't understand that at this point then you're not here to learn, you're here to argue a flawed opinion.

That's your perception, so thanks if what I post is considered tough to you. It's just average training to me. And I've been in many street fights, they were pretty easy due to the general untrained slobs that are on the streets. Most of the time it's just me punching someone in the nose first and they shut up. And firefights, I just start shooting when shot at. It stops when you run out of ammo and need to reload or when someone gets shot. Doesn't even feel like you're in danger until bullets starts flying by close or you get hit

Yep. But since tools (i.e. weapons) can fail AND since CQC is part of the occupation (which has been explained to you in this thread) then H2H is necessary for the soldier. It doesn't need to be complicated, just effective. And statistically speaking, it is very effective. WWII combatives, as explained to you before, is possibly 'the' most effective H2H system ever devised. Simple, quick, gross motor skilled, retained in long term memory and bloody brutal. Would it work in MMA? Nope, doesn't abide by artificial rule sets.

Anyone can do what you're talking about here. Just give an MMA fighter the same rifle with bayonet. Soldiers trains just a little bit of this stabbing dummies, etc. and then go to war, never even trying it out for real because most of what they do is shoot with their M4's. A fatguy, Medieval fan trains with a sword often would be much more skilled.

They don't have to waste their time. What they train in doesn't take a lot of time to learn. Ask a Marine that's gone through the belt program.

Then an MMA fighter can spend a few weekends learning this play-fighting with rifle + bayonet too. You even admit that it's simple. How would a trained & conditioned MMA fighter not be able to learn the same and outperform such Marines?

Thanks, I think. I post my experience. And since what I teach works in the real world, for military, police, corrections, E.P. Agents and private citizens I'd say that gives me some perspective you should listen to. And there are quite a few members in this thread that have a plethora of experience on all sides that have tried to provide food for thought to you. Whether you actually consider their experience or not is up to you.

We have experts like you in our MMA gym too. These govt' branches just have extra funding that they need to blow (to not lose it in the next year), so they contract ninjas to come and do training seminars. My sensei loves this as it's an easy payday for him too.

 

[Mz1]

they suck at MMA rules fighting. there is a difference between fighting by the rules and fighting for your life.

You seem to not understand that the modern soldiers usually only shoot their rifles and almost NEVER go H2H or even with their bayonets. The military don't even spend a lot of time training them in such. A fat Medieval Times guy who trains a lot with swords and spears can take them. Do you think the US military gets them good enough to take on martial artists?

Now you may spar as close to reality as you can but as you already said you cant fight to the death at the dojo.

What do you think a choke hold is? It's to kill you. Or a knockout. Everything leading up to this KO was done with the same ferocity as a fight to the death.

I think thats where thedisconnect I have with what your saying is. Even in super agressive sparring there ae others around to make sure nobody dies. you dont do things like bite or claw at someones eyes or genitals they are against the rules but are expected in h2h fights to the death whiich is what combat is about.

Well if you want to fight using anti-rape tactics then that's you, but I'd rather knock someone out and then stomp & soccer kick on their head until their skull caves in....in a fight to the death.

here again is where i think your being a little extream. just because people dont spar for the KO does not mean they are afraid.

Yea it does.

I dont spar like that because I dont need too I know I can KO someone, I dont need to prove it to anyone in training.

Thus, you're not a fighter in a fighting gym. Because this is what it's all about in a gym that fights. And if you say that you don't need to prove anything to anyone in training, then you're not being truthful. Even to get a shiny new colored belt, you'd have to prove something or another.

Plus I dont want to be knocked out it hurts I have a real job I go to the next day.

See? You're scared of getting punched hard. And I own insurance agencies, so what.

Do accidents happen sure have I gotten hurt training yep it happens but no need to try to do it. If your knockin people out your causing perm. brain trauma. repeated brain trauma leads to bad thiings when your older.

Yea no kidding, it's a risk all fighters take. If you're not a fighter, that's fine...just don't try to tell me how I should train.

Thats why the NFL is cracking down on big hits not because platers are affraid but because they see the damage done to the brains of older players.

Ok, and? No one is disputing that getting hit in the head often is not a good thing.

 

[arnisador]

These quote-reply-quote-reply posts are tedious for the rest of us to wade through. Can someone bring the matter back to a specific point?

 

[ballen0351]

You seem to not understand that the modern soldiers usually only shoot their rifles and almost NEVER go H2H or even with their bayonets. The military don't even spend a lot of time training them in such. A fat Medieval Times guy who trains a lot with swords and spears can take them. Do you think the US military gets them good enough to take on martial artists?

I do understand thats the point I was in the Marine Corps I did the Line training its effect for defending yourself in life or death. Its NOT effective for sparring with classmates in a controlled gym. The fat midievl times guys are actors and not fighters.
I have no doubt a trained MMA fighter that trains several days a week can beat a Marine thats new to the class using the MMA rules. If it were not the case Id be worried about the training at that gym. Your rules your house you better win. Just like a trained MMA guy goes to a Hapkido place or Judo place or TKD place or Shotokan place and on his first day needs to spar by the rules they will win and the MMA guy will lose (not you of course but other MMA guys)

What do you think a choke hold is? It's to kill you. Or a knockout. Everything leading up to this KO was done with the same ferocity as a fight to the death.

True its similar but its not the same. You both know as soon as someone taps the person will let go and you get to start again. That wont happen in real life. Training can not and will not EVER be the same as a real fight.

Well if you want to fight using anti-rape tactics then that's you, but I'd rather knock someone out and then stomp & soccer kick on their head until their skull caves in....in a fight to the death.

It has nothing to do with rape tacticts it stuff the militay are taught because on the battle field your not wearing a pair of board shorts and a rash guard you have flack jackets, helmets, knee pads, ect so your taught to go for exposed or unprotected areas of the body like eyes and the groin. See different rules.
By the way how many fights to the death have you been in?

Yea it does.

Ok if you say so

Thus, you're not a fighter in a fighting gym. Because this is what it's all about in a gym that fights.
And if you say that you don't need to prove anything to anyone in training, then you're not being truthful. Even to get a shiny new colored belt, you'd have to prove something or another.

I said I dont need to prove to anyone I can knock them out. Showing what I was taught and proving Im a bad *** are totally different.

See? You're scared of getting punched hard. And I own insurance agencies, so what.

Nope Ive been puched enough in the face in real life by real bag guys that were really trying to kill me to know its not fun.

Yea no kidding, it's a risk all fighters take. If you're not a fighter, that's fine...just don't try to tell me how I should train.

Im not telling you how to train.

Ok, and? No one is disputing that getting hit in the head often is not a good thing.

yet your ok with trying to injure your partners permenantly

 

[arnisador]

stuff the militay are taught because on the battle field your not wearing a pair of board shorts and a rash guard you have flack jackets, helmets, knee pads, ect so your taught to go for exposed or unprotected areas

People don't appreciate how different it is when your opponent might have a helmet, chest plate, etc., and you might have a large ruck on your back screwing with your balance and mobility. Developing aggression and drive is part of the reason for the military martial arts training but to the extent it's meant to be usable you really have to rethink what you're teaching.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

People don't appreciate how different it is when your opponent might have a helmet, chest plate, etc., and you might have a large ruck on your back screwing with your balance and mobility. Developing aggression and drive is part of the reason for the military martial arts training but to the extent it's meant to be usable you really have to rethink what you're teaching.

Great point. This is another reason for not using training from one venue to cover another with completely different requirements. MMA has minimal clothing and depending on the type of MMA, safety equipment is used as well as a referee, rules, flat and level surface etc. Soldiers have quite a bit of equipment as you've listed. In addition, officers have vest and duty belt. My duty belt has a Glock 21 .45ACP, 2 mags of .45ACP ammo, Taser, spare Taser cartridge, O.C. spray, cuffs, MTM mask/kit, flashlight (Stinger Streamlight), 911 tool and radio. That weighs quite a bit, particularly towards the end of a 12 hour shift. MMA is great, but they enter training/competition warmed up and stretched out in loose fitting clothing. I wear TDU's and boots and though I like to stay limber while working, warmed up and stretched out isn't feasible. Point being that it is a quite different environment with different requirements.

MMA, as I've stated is great. But it simply wasn't designed to cover venues outside its own. That doesn't diminish MMA in any way, shape or form. Appropriate training for the appropriate venue and goal(s).

 

[James Kovacich]

Not limited, vast.

Would you please fill out your profile so we can see for ourselves that you are the real deal that you claim and not a 12 yearold?


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[Tez3]

When soldiers come into an MMA gym never having done MMA of course they 'suck', well, actually they don't, they are beginners, just the same as beginners in every other martial art. No one is born proficient in martial arts, everyone has to learn. I coach soldiers in MMA, they regard it as a sport, a hobby, it's relaxing even, they don't do it to extend their military training. They fight competitively because they enjoy it. A lot of people enjoy it, some make money at it but it's still a sport. it's individual components may well be useful on a battlefield, who knows, it depends on the army and it depends where and who they are fighting but MMA is still a sport. I love MMA as well as the traditional styles, but I wouldn't say that MMA is the one and only style that you can use anywhere to beat everyone, that's a very fanboy attitude tbh. it's the guy in the Tapout Tshirt shouting 'kill him' at the fighter in the cage who says that MMA is so wonderful not a true MMA enthusiast.

 

[Tez3]

Of course things do get rough in MMA gyms this is Joanne Calderwood showing the Dinky Ninja fight Team how it should be done. She's 9th ranked straw weight in the world according Unified rankings. The Dinky Ninjas are, well the Dinky Ninjas, great guys, serious about MMA,train hard, don't go knocking each other out in training, don't boast and put down anyone, as I said great lads...and lasses.
with

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps after that we can return to the OP 'ring v battlefield versions of MAs' because there's other styles that have a competition version in the ring, in fact, if you broaden it slightly to include mats we have even more styles. Broaden would seem to a good word as we should broaden the conversation somewhat away from just one style. MMA as such only has the one side...the competitive one, there is no battlefield equivalent of it as it stands.
Anyone with knowledge of San Shou for example, did that have a 'battlefield' version, does any of the Chinese styles, or the Korean or of course the Philipino (do they have a competitive side?)