Despite style vs style wars and art stereotypes,why RBSD,military,and street versions so similar?

[drop bear]

At some point you had to start learning techniques. At some point you had to learn techniques from an authority who knew from experience that it worked, before you had a chance to go into a ring and test them.

Yeah but there is a whole degree of testing done before you jump in the ring if you are being trained ethically.

And there is a whole degree of testing that has been done by your instructor.

Your suggestion is that there are untested techniques that we take in to self defense.

So tkd guy does some competitions knocks some fools out. But decides that that isn't all for the streets.

So he does some grappling. Enters some competitions chokes some fools out.

Still not complete. Say he trains his awareness because you can't train that by competition. He doesn't know if that works or doesn't. So he has to take it pretty much on faith.

 

[drop bear]

Agree. Who is to say 'who' is the authority? Unless it is a systemic evaluation there is no true authority. It is very hard to account for people who simply know how to fight with zero formal training at all. We all know they exist. It is akin to the same variable(s) that make one fighter better than another even when every measurable it identical.
I wish I could bottle that stuff up and sell it.

And we have to develop tools that make people better. That is the point. I might be taller than you and so have more reach. Now you can't get taller and don't bother trying. But you could work on something else that negates my reach.

 

[skribs]

Yeah but there is a whole degree of testing done before you jump in the ring if you are being trained ethically.

And there is a whole degree of testing that has been done by your instructor.

Your suggestion is that there are untested techniques that we take in to self defense.

Where did I suggest that? I have very clearly said that just because someone is good at kicks, you don't know what else they're good at or not. They could be very competent at throws as well.

And in this particular discussion, we're appealing to an authority, under the assumption that the authority has tested or used the techniques and concepts they're teaching. If they haven't tested them, then that's a different issue.

[/quote]So tkd guy does some competitions knocks some fools out. But decides that that isn't all for the streets.

So he does some grappling. Enters some competitions chokes some fools out.

Still not complete. Say he trains his awareness because you can't train that by competition. [/quote]

I don't really know what you're trying to say here. Should you pick one thing and train it because nothing will ever be complete? Should you cross-train in everything because nothing is ever enough? You're starting to ramble and not really making a coherent argument anymore.

He doesn't know if that works or doesn't. So he has to take it pretty much on faith.

Complete and utter hogwash. If you avoid a fight by paying attention, you know you avoided the fight.

 

[drop bear]

Where did I suggest that? I have very clearly said that just because someone is good at kicks, you don't know what else they're good at or not. They could be very competent at throws as well.

And in this particular discussion, we're appealing to an authority, under the assumption that the authority has tested or used the techniques and concepts they're teaching. If they haven't tested them, then that's a different issue.

So tkd guy does some competitions knocks some fools out. But decides that that isn't all for the streets.

So he does some grappling. Enters some competitions chokes some fools out.

Still not complete. Say he trains his awareness because you can't train that by competition. [/quote]

I don't really know what you're trying to say here. Should you pick one thing and train it because nothing will ever be complete? Should you cross-train in everything because nothing is ever enough? You're starting to ramble and not really making a coherent argument anymore.



Complete and utter hogwash. If you avoid a fight by paying attention, you know you avoided the fight.[/QUOTE]

Do TKD people tend to be good at grappling?

Have you won many grappling competitions for example?

Do you know many TKD guys who have won many grappling competitions?

 

[drop bear]

Complete and utter hogwash. If you avoid a fight by paying attention, you know you avoided the fight.

I am not fighting anyone at the moment. Is that because my awareness training has worked?

 

[skribs]

Do TKD people tend to be good at grappling?

Have you won many grappling competitions for example?

Do you know many TKD guys who have won many grappling competitions?

Yes.

I am not fighting anyone at the moment. Is that because my awareness training has worked?

Since you are asking the question, it sounds like you need more awareness training.

 

[drop bear]

Yes.



Since you are asking the question, it sounds like you need more awareness training.

Which competition?

 

[skribs]

Which competition?

Wrestling.

 

[drop bear]

Wrestling.

Wrestling is a style not a competition.

 

[skribs]

Wrestling is a style not a competition.

...what?

 

[Tez3]

Can't judge styles on one guy. If a style is churning out kill monster after kill monster you can judge it is better than a style that doesn't.

A style that has been around for a few centuries so has turned out more champions is easier to judge than a style than has been around for 30 years or so. Boxing has turned out more duds than it has champions, as do most sports, we just remember the latter.

 

[drop bear]

A style that has been around for a few centuries so has turned out more champions is easier to judge than a style than has been around for 30 years or so. Boxing has turned out more duds than it has champions, as do most sports, we just remember the latter.

Jackson mma has been around for less than 30 years. It seems to have a pretty solid record of success. For example.

 

[Tez3]

Jackson mma has been around for less than 30 years. It seems to have a pretty solid record of success. For example.

Depends how old you are, 30 years to me is no time at all even though I've been involved in MMA for most of that time. If you are young 30 years is a very long time!

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Jackson mma has been around for less than 30 years. It seems to have a pretty solid record of success. For example.

Modern MMA anyway. Not the literal meaning of the name. Hybrids and mixtures of styles have been around for as long as such things have existed. My love Bartitsu for example was around in the early 1900's. (read the context i dont think this fits well, but i am leaving it none the less)

Also the more people that do something, generally speaking the more average the results will be. Like if you deny the average boxing, the boxers will fall to being expetional, if you let the average in, the results will fall more across the scale. Really, not everyone can be the best of the best or else no one would be the best of the best.

And i would say you can only really judge from the 1800's- now as records have been dodgy, unless the place in question has impecable records and writing culture. and havent had lots of libaries and archives burnt.

edit: training matters more than person, if you can give the most average person a good set of skills to fight to defend themselves, your good. if you can only give a expetional person a good set of skills, its ehhh.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

...what?

He meant what competition specfically/what orginsation. Wrestling has many styles to it, including a pleratha of folk styles. ie did you do greco-roman, freestyle, pro, catch? Glima? Ringen? Judo? BJJ? JJ? what ever folk styles china has (it has some wrestling styles). and to westerners and perhaps the meaning of said words Judo and JJ are in deed wrestling, as wrestling has come to mean grappling to many people.

and did you do this in school? the Olympics? a open mat tourment? IBJJF? Freindly game or proffesional etc.

 

[dvcochran]

A style that has been around for a few centuries so has turned out more champions is easier to judge than a style than has been around for 30 years or so. Boxing has turned out more duds than it has champions, as do most sports, we just remember the latter.

I did consider the time element. The older TMA styles have an advantage in this regard. Competition in the modern sense was not a relevant factor until the late 60's or 70's. Is there agreement that competition in the 70's and prior eras was more Martial? Bare knuckle, no mats, less rules, etc... So there was a much stronger element of 'realism'.

There is no argument that modern fighting systems have consolidated and streamlined components from most all styles into a very well working system. They have a steeper learning curve yet the peak is lower because certain elements have been stripped away. By virtue, they will make a pure fighter, faster. Does this make them any better at defending a street attack? Likely but not certainly. By the same virtue, hitting the gym and doing good calisthenics and aerobics could be said to do the same. As said previously, there will always be outliers that are simply good at fighting.

Older, more wholistic MA will do the same and more for most people IF the non-contact (without human targets)practice is performed correctly. The first thing that came to my mind is the good old fashioned Makiwara board.
This one of the best and easiest substitutes for actually hitting someone in the jaw. Those who have actually bare knuckled someone to the side of the head will get this. It hurts an unconditioned hand. Using a Makiwara board (or equivalent, tree, etc...) daily will condition not only the hands but the connecting members and the mind. This type of training can and should be extended to every striking member of the body. We kick a Makiwara board for example.
My main point is; it is unrealistic in today's world to think you can do Only ring training enough and/or regularly enough to get proficient. NOBODY does that. What happens in the ring is a culmination of what happens outside the ring. Mat work, pad work, and conditioning make the fighter. Because of the specific mat work and pad work. For the most part conditioning is conditioning (I know there are specifics). Change the Practice, i.e. mat work/pad work to a more general subset and the odds of covering what may be needed in a street altercation (who knows?) goes up exponentially.
RBSD is very good and very needed as a subset along with the rest of the subsets of most any MA or fighting system. It lends itself better to TMA's that work on the 'why' fight component, not just the 'fight first' component. Systems that have too narrow a focus and work on one area such as tournaments/ring fighting are simply missing the MA boat.

Lastly, the OP's specific experience will be a big factor in their perspective on the systems mentioned.

 

[skribs]

He meant what competition specfically/what orginsation. Wrestling has many styles to it, including a pleratha of folk styles. ie did you do greco-roman, freestyle, pro, catch? Glima? Ringen? Judo? BJJ? JJ? what ever folk styles china has (it has some wrestling styles). and to westerners and perhaps the meaning of said words Judo and JJ are in deed wrestling, as wrestling has come to mean grappling to many people.

and did you do this in school? the Olympics? a open mat tourment? IBJJF? Freindly game or proffesional etc.

In that case it would apply to "wrestling is a style" as well.

 

[dvcochran]

Wrestling is a system with a few subsystems. Like many martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

Depends how old you are, 30 years to me is no time at all even though I've been involved in MMA for most of that time. If you are young 30 years is a very long time!

Ok let's say 30 years is not a long time. Then it is more impressive if he has churned out a heap of good fighters.

 

[drop bear]

He meant what competition specfically/what orginsation. Wrestling has many styles to it, including a pleratha of folk styles. ie did you do greco-roman, freestyle, pro, catch? Glima? Ringen? Judo? BJJ? JJ? what ever folk styles china has (it has some wrestling styles). and to westerners and perhaps the meaning of said words Judo and JJ are in deed wrestling, as wrestling has come to mean grappling to many people.

and did you do this in school? the Olympics? a open mat tourment? IBJJF? Freindly game or proffesional etc.

Which would give an indication of the level of grappling achieved.