Regarding the future of TKD

[KarateMomUSA]

Unification has, for the most part, already happened. The ITF and General Choi was severely weakened when he went to North Korea because many of the Korean born ITF instructors looked at him as a traitor and jumped ship. Ten years after General Choi's death, we see the ITF shattered into who knows how many different factions. In contrast, there are over 500 Kukkiwon 9th Dan out there, many of whom were former ITF members. How many ITF 9th Dan are out there? That should give you a clue as to the size differences of the two, and that is only at the top of the pyramid.

Yes a unification did take place that can trace a start to 50 years ago. So if people want to unify today, you really want them to just join the KKW, come under them, be absorbed by them & follow their outlines. That is OK, but it is not a unification & while that option is there, it always has been there. For some, a future that will not include what they have been doing for 50 years, might not be too attractive, hence their future may not include just joining the premier group.

For Korea itself, any unification of TKD, will have to be a real unification, as the millions in the north have not done, nor have ever done Kukki TKD, except for some possible secret training program, as they are not a member nation of the WTF. They have only done ITF TKD & done so since 1980, long after the previous largely successful unification efforts took place. They never had a seat at that table. When it comes to this unification, it will not be limited to the hands of the TKD leaders, but rather the politicians of their respective Reunification Ministries, which by the way, both Gen Choi & Dr Kim played roles in. So Korean politics will still have a role to play & hopefully it will be not of the nasty kind that has reared its ugly head before to the detriment of far too many, often innocent people.

So what many do view as traitorous, may still yet be recorded by history as patriotic & even heroic. Time will tell.

As to the 9th Dan stats, the KKW number of over 500 is most impressive. It does show how the KKW dwarfs the ITF & all of TKD.

Gen Choi promoted only 7 to that rank. But all 7 shared his vision & most of them did his system just as he prescribed, which is impressive in a smaller & different light. Now just off the top of my head, the ITFs have promoted over a dozen 9th Dans on their own, who also follow a single system as left to them by Gen Choi. There are over 2 dozen Koreans from the north who approach our terminal degree of IX Dan grandmaster, along with countless others all waiting to cross that threshold from 8th Dan.

The overwhelming majority of ITF 9th Dans are non-Korean, which is also impressive in its own light. There are also many other Chang Hon 9th Dans out there as well, many of them are also non-Koreans.
The prospect of growth in the future, including the near future is quite good among ITFers for 9th Dan, all doing pretty much the same thing, thanks to the dedication of a martial artist.
In pure numbers, I don't think any group can catch up to the KKW, even if you combined all the others. But I do think that the ITF has produced more non-Korean 9th Dan grandmasters than any other group. I think that speaks to an aspect of their world-wide "internationalization". I hope that the KKW will continue to build standardization & outreach with their instructor courses. I think the WTF Poomsae championships & proposed new KKW black belt application procedures & requirements talked about in other sections of this forum help those efforts & that those efforts will allow them to increase their non-Korean numbers of 9th Dan grandmasters.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

we must wear cross over. No v-necks allowed.

I really like the V-Necks & the Korean feel for them, which goes back to the Korean hanbok. I also like the ITF dobok that joins in the middle & does not have ties, but either a zipper or velcro. I don't think I could ever go back to the cross over or ties! I hated them & now I think of karate or judo when I think about them, that is not bad, but it no longer has a TKD feel to it.

 

[Kacey]

I really like the V-Necks & the Korean feel for them, which goes back to the Korean hanbok. I also like the ITF dobok that joins in the middle & does not have ties, but either a zipper or velcro. I don't think I could ever go back to the cross over or ties! I hated them & now I think of karate or judo when I think about them, that is not bad, but it no longer has a TKD feel to it.

I liked the velcro okay... but zippers are dangerous. I saw a few people get kicked in the zipper pull, some on purpose, some not - some of my seniors considered the zipper pull a good target, being right on the sternum - I would never buy a dobok with a zipper, and, in fact, they never really caught on around here for just that reason.

 

[puunui]

Yes a unification did take place that can trace a start to 50 years ago. So if people want to unify today, you really want them to just join the KKW, come under them, be absorbed by them & follow their outlines. That is OK, but it is not a unification & while that option is there, it always has been there. For some, a future that will not include what they have been doing for 50 years, might not be too attractive, hence their future may not include just joining the premier group.

No one wants to let go what they always did, not even the pioneers back in the 1960's. But they did it. If you are unable or unwilling to do the same, then you don't need to be a part of it. But there are others who are willing to adapt and learn new ways, especially when they start thinking about their students and their student's future, people that ATA GM LEE Haeng Ung.

For Korea itself, any unification of TKD, will have to be a real unification, as the millions in the north have not done, nor have ever done Kukki TKD, except for some possible secret training program, as they are not a member nation of the WTF. They have only done ITF TKD & done so since 1980, long after the previous largely successful unification efforts took place. They never had a seat at that table. When it comes to this unification, it will not be limited to the hands of the TKD leaders, but rather the politicians of their respective Reunification Ministries, which by the way, both Gen Choi & Dr Kim played roles in. So Korean politics will still have a role to play & hopefully it will be not of the nasty kind that has reared its ugly head before to the detriment of far too many, often innocent people.

No one will lose any sleep if North Korea chooses not to become a WTF Member National Association. I know I don't care.

So what many do view as traitorous, may still yet be recorded by history as patriotic & even heroic. Time will tell.

I'm sure the supporters of Benedict Arnold feel the same way.

As to the 9th Dan stats, the KKW number of over 500 is most impressive. It does show how the KKW dwarfs the ITF & all of TKD. Gen Choi promoted only 7 to that rank. But all 7 shared his vision & most of them did his system just as he prescribed

That's their problem.

The overwhelming majority of ITF 9th Dans are non-Korean, which is also impressive in its own light

It's not impressive, it just underlines the fact that the overwhelming majority of Korean borns abandoned General Choi. There are many more former ITF members who hold Kukkiwon 9th Dan than there are ITF 9th Dan.

 

[puunui]

[FONT=&quot]I come from a large independent club within Australia that spans the east coast. I think it is valuable to have large organisations like the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Kukkiwon; however, I do not believe they are the be all of TKD, nor do I believe that one body needs to be responsible to unite all of TKD under one banner, other arts demonstrates richness in variety and as TKD grows it does as well. My club uses palgwe forms for coloured belts and we have never been exposed to Taeguek forms. The reasoning behind this has been argued one way or another probably even on this site. [/FONT]

Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members. How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then?

 

[puunui]

He does make good points about the unification efforts of the 1960s that led to the present day KKW. It seems that he would much rather prefer outsiders to just join or be absorbed by the KKW. I will let him address that if he wishes, as I am sure he can better explain my take on his thoughts.

Mr. Vitale, I've already explained myself, numerous times and frankly, I am not going to go through the exercise of having to repeat myself just because you continue to ignore my prior statements when making your "commentary without facts". If you or North Korea doesn't wish to join, then you don't have to. No one is forcing you and frankly no one feels any loss because if your refusal. In General Choi's autobiography, he mistakenly attributes a Chung Do Kwan member standing on the top of the Chung Do Kwan building waving a red flag to GM LEE Won Kuk (GM Lee had already left for Japan before the invasion so it wasn't him). But this last time, reading your statements about the "millions of North Koreans" practicing ITF Taekwon-Do, I couldn't help but picture you in your blue suit and blue shirt waving that red flag on top of the Taekwon-Do Palace in North Korea. I believe that Mr. CHANG Ung of North Korea gave you your NK ITF 8th Dan; hang in there, because it's good propaganda for North Korea to be promoting Americans to NK ITF rank and for Americans to be an advocate and supporter for North Korea. Keep doing what you are doing, and your North Korea ITF 9th Dan is in the bag.

I do not think that a true unification can happen without both discussion, consideration & some accommodation for all involved. This is why I think that a real unification will never happen, but if there was to be a hope for it, it would make sense that the KKW would have to expand so those looking to unite, not just join, will find that not only are they welcomed, but have a place.

George, can you see why Mr. CHANG Ung gave you that North Korean 8th Dan? I can.

 

[puunui]

Yes I find little to quibble about. In fact this is noble indeed. However it does leave out that not all did unify then & that millions around the world continued to grow & develop separately.

George, you went from the "millions in North Korea" to the "millions around the world". Is that how you you are going to attempt to justify your support of North Korea, by somehow making it a "world" issue? I don't think so. Is Juche your favorite tul?

So while you present an option for those to join the past unification of decades ago, that retroactive joining is not a unification, but an absorption into the KKW, a present day entity that was created in 1972 by a true but somewhat incomplete unification.

Whatever Mr. Vitale.

That option was always there for the millions outside of the KKW umbrella & still is.

George, I wouldn't be too sure about that, given the way the new Kukkiwon president feels about things.

But joining a group is a bit different from unifying or becoming united with one. While some may see benefit in that, I am sure others may not. That is good, as it is an optional path.

Mr. Vitale, feel free to mischaracterize anything that you want. It's your defining characteristic at this point. But the fact remains, we have people who are willing to learn the Kukkiwon poomsae so they can participate in the larger Taekwondo world, even if you and North Korea are not.

 

[terryl965]

Who is Mr. Vitale? I guess I missed something somewhere?:erg:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Who is Mr. Vitale? I guess I missed something somewhere?:erg:

I got confused on all this stuff weeks ago, its like trying to watch a show where you've missed half a dozen episodes and then try to catch back up. Couple that with the fact that 18 months ago I didnt even know what the kukkiwon was and you've got one very lost guy here

 

[Steven Craig]

Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members. How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then?

A certification in the Kukkiwon has no meaning or relevance to me, those who have chosen to promote me through the ranks are from with-in my organisation, they know my name and my face, and have seen me grow in the art, that has meaning to me. Do I want to be a part of a large bureaucracy that has its head office overseas? No, a Kukkiwon certificate would not make my rank feel more like I earned it than what it already does.

 

[andyjeffries]

Who is Mr. Vitale? I guess I missed something somewhere?:erg:

As I understand it - Puunui believes that KarateMomUSA is "George Vitale". I asked the same question about a week ago and got that answer. I haven't however seen a post from Puunui where he says it outright (but it's certainly readable as that) nor a post from KarateMomUSA either denying or confirming it.

 

[terryl965]

As I understand it - Puunui believes that KarateMomUSA is "George Vitale". I asked the same question about a week ago and got that answer. I haven't however seen a post from Puunui where he says it outright (but it's certainly readable as that) nor a post from KarateMomUSA either denying or confirming it.

Ok who is George Vitale? I guess he is some TKD guy? I will google the name to see what it brings up.

 

[terryl965]

Ok here is some info on George Vitale.....

More on George Vitale—Ambassador of the Year

SOME HIGHLIGHTS: Asst Coach 1988 WCs Budapest, Head of American TKD Delegation to North Korea in 1989, 1st time ever NK hosted a TKD event, Asst Coach 90 WCs Montreal, 11 international instructor courses, trained 9 other times under TKD’s founder Gen Choi, Gen Choi International Cups 84, 85, 87, 92, 2000 & 2005, WCs 2006,7,8 & 09, lifetime member of USTF since 82 & ITF since 86, GTF member 90, appeared in numerous publications & on TV for TKD, assisted Gen Choi with filming & editing of Official ITF training films, color commentary & technical analysis for ESPY TV coverage of ITF WCs, technical director for complete TKD training films, received permission from US Govt. to travel direct to Cuba for TKD, member of AAU, former member of USTU, participated in ITF, WTF, AAU Jr Olympics & independent TKD events, been to both Koreas learning, teaching & sharing TKD on both sides of the DMZ, assisted GM Jung in obtaining US Govt. permission for NK goodwill tour of USA in & accompanied entourage from start to finish in Oct 07, attended both the 25th ITF Anniversary Celebration in Ottawa, Canada & 40th Pyongyang, DPRK, attended 5 yr memorial service for Gen Choi in Pyongyang 2007, obtained permission from DPRK govt for the 1st American film crew to record in NK, have been published in numerous periodicals, writing mostly on TKD’s history as well as technical advice.

Has trained under or interviewed: Gen Choi, Rhee Ki Ha, Park Jong Soo, Lee Suk Hi, Kim Kwang Sung, Charles Sereff, James Murray, Nam Tae Hi, Jung Woo Jin, Kimm He Young, Choi Kwang Jo, Park Jung Tae, Yu Hong Sung, Han Ham Soo, Richard Chun, Kim Suk Jun, Kang Suh Chong, Chung Kwang Duk, S Henry Cho, Hwang Kwang Sung, Phap Lu, Leong Wai Meng, Choi Jung Hwa, Jhoon Rhee, Tran Trien Quan, Prof Chang Ung, Dr Choue Chong Won, Kim Bok Man, Michael Winegar, Benny Rivera, Andres Mencia, Kang Yon Ho, Lee Byung Moo, Doug Cook, Robert Wheatley, Francis Barrett, Choi Chang Keun, Kong Yong Il, Cho Sang Min, Van Binh Nyugen, Uhm Un Gyo, Yang Jin Suk, Son Duk Sung, Lim Ching Sing, Kong Yong Bo, Yang Dong Ya, Yang Woo Yup, Ung Kim Lang, Wim Bos, Robert Howard, Anthony Phelan, Cho Dae Sung, Cho Pyung Kyu, Hector Marano, Pablo Tratenberg, Park Dong Keun, Park Yeon Hwan, Kang Tae Sun, Hwang Ho Yong, Kim Ung Chol, Yang Jun Bang, Ri Yong Suk

 

[andyjeffries]

Ok here is some info on George Vitale.....

And some more:

Inducted into the Official Taekwondo Hall of Fame (Lifetime Acheivement Award)
in the ceremony held in Teaneck, New Jersey, USA on April 10, 2009

Special Advisor & Member of Organizing Committee for Inaugural Taekwondo Hall of Fame
Ceremony held April 6th, 2007. Inductees included Great GM Nam Tae Hi, GM Rhee Ki Ha,
GM Kim Bok Man, GM Cho Sang Min, GM Chang Keun Choi,, GM Kong Young II, GM-
Park Dong Keun, and GM Jhoon Rhee.

Trained, studied, taught & promoted Taekwon-Do in over 30 countries around
the world, including Cuba, South & North Korea

Attended several International Instructor Courses, including 1 that was 2 weeks
duration, 2 that were 1 week long & numerous other seminars taught by General Choi Hong Hi

Represented the USA at several World Congress Meetings & attended various World Champ-
ionships & International Tournaments, acting as both Head & Assistant Coach for the US Team

Completed several Academic Education Science classes in the Methods of Instruction in order
to enhance my ability to share Taekwon-Do with others

Retired from the NY State Police in 2005, after 24 years of service in order to teach full time &
work on Taekwon-Do research, for a full length feature documentary on Taekwon-Do history,
interviewing several pioneering Grandmasters & other pivotal figures

Current & past member of the AAU, past member of the USTU

Graduated with a Master of Arts Degree from John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Feb. of
1997, after completing 5 extensive research papers and 2 theses on Martial Arts and Juvenile
Delinquency

Taught & promoted countless students to Black Belt

Expanded the Original Taekwon-Do School & moved to its present location in 1994

Assisted with the filming and editing of Official I.T.F. Training Tapes in 1991

Appointed Vice President of the USTF, the National Governing Body of the ITF in 1991

Officiated at the World Championships in Montreal, Canada in August of 1990, later providing
color commentary and technical analysis for ESPY-TV for the Martial Arts World Television
Program on the Madison Square Garden Network

Opened the Original Taekwon-Do School in May of 1990

Produced, Directed and Starred in Taekwon-Do: A Way To A Better Life, broadcasted on
Channel 24 of Staten Island, NY Cable TV, debuting on November 15, 1989

Head of the U.S.A. Delegation to the 13th World Festival of Youth and Students, held in
Pyongyang, the Capital City of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the first time students
ever competed in north Korea. This historic trip took place during an event attended by more than
30,000 people from 180 Countries.

Presented with numerous Appreciation & Recognition awards for important contributions to
Taekwon-Do by the USTF, TKD Times & others

Established the Original Taekwon-Do Club as the primary contact and training center for the
TF/USTF in the NY Metropolitan Area in May of 1988, continuing to present

Represented the USA at the ITF World Congress Meeting and Press Conference, nominated
by General Choi Hong Hi to the position of Director of the ITF & was unanimously approved
by the Congress on April 7, 1988

Goodwill Tour of Yugoslavia with the National Teams of the USA & Yugoslavia, starting with
a Team Match in Zagreb, marking the 20th Year Anniversary of Taekwon-Do in Yugoslavia on
April 12, 1988

Certified as an International Instructor/Examiner, # 404, with the ability to teach and test students
worldwide, a Class "A" International Umpire # 380A & Class "B" National Umpire # 270B by\
the I.T.F. on July 26, 1987

Interviewed and filmed General Choi, Hong Hi for Winner Magazine, at his home in Mississagua,
Canada during December of 1986

Founded the Original Taekwon-Do Club - ITF Main Gymnasium #311 and USTF Branch # 16,
along with 16 other Black Belts during August of 1986

Promoted to IV Dan by the USTF #3200, on August 23, 1986

Trained under General Choi, Hong Hi for the first time, at a Seminar he conducted in Houston,
TX from July 17th to the 21st, 1986

Enrolled as a Lifetime Member of the ITF #3200 in January of 1986

Named Vice President of Kim's Taekwon-Do School in December of 1986

Demonstrated Taekwon-Do on the Harry Lipsig Manhattan, NY TV Show in 1984

Met General Choi, Hong Hi, IX Dan, a principal founder of Taekwon-Do and President of the I.T.F.
and officiated at the General Choi's Cup held in Bergenfield, NJ in November of 1984

Head Coach for the NYC Taekwon-Do Team to the AAU Junior Olympic Games held in
Jacksonville, FL during August of 1984

Designated Zone Defensive Tactics Instructor for the NYS Police in 1983

Enrolled as a Lifetime Member #3200 of the United States Taekwon-Do Federation, the National
Governing Body for the ITF on July 25, 1982

Graduated from the New York State Police Academy in Albany, NY after completing 6 months
of extensive training, which included defensive tactics and physical fitness training in March of 1982

Sworn in as a NY State Trooper by Gov. Hugh Carey on October 19, 1981

Promoted to I Dan Black Belt by Master Kim Kwang Sung and Master Kwon Jae Hwa, the
Pioneer of Taekwon-Do in Germany on July 22, 1977 and Certified by the I.T.F. # A-1-2654
and named Assistant Instructor at Kim's Taekwon-Do School

Started training in Taekwon-Do, The Korean Art of Self Defense in the early 1970s, at
International Taekwon-Do Federation Main Gymnasium # 21, in Brooklyn, NY, under
Kim, Kwang Sung, a VII Dan Master Instructor, who was Certified by the ITF, which was the
1st & the oldest worldwide Governing Body of Taekwon-Do

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members. How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then?

I would feel that the KKW finally was able to accomplish what the ITF has already been doing for years.
I would salute them for a job well done, as I know the task of such a standardization that the ITF was able to have is a very difficult task indeed. But congratulations would definitely be in order. I have no problem giving deserved credit where credit is due.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
"So while you present an option for those to join the past unification of decades ago, that retroactive joining is not a unification, but an absorption into the KKW, a present day entity that was created in 1972 by a true but somewhat incomplete unification."

In some posts it has been said that we are all TKD. But it then also seems that in some ways we are really not all TKD, as we must give up in some manor & not get any recognition for what we have done with TKD for decades in some cases, but can then join the KKW & be absorbed by them. Well then we just shouldn't call that unification, but absorption, which was always an option. But if some may wish to join, I am not sure many would simply not want to be absorbed, especially when they may feel so much resentment from some.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

...post from KarateMomUSA either denying or confirming it.

There really is nothing to deny or confirm. The screen name above has not posted anything negative about anyone. In fact, the posts have been highly laudable about the quality of the info posted by the screen name Puunui. In fact many thanks have been given, as it is very valuable info indeed, that all helps to further the understanding of the often confusing & contradictory history of the development of TKD. I would add just to be fully accurate, that there were posts about GM Lee Chong Woo's own words about his involvement in both spreading the 2,000 year old myth & "branch trimming", which was the cheating for south Korean players. There was also posts about Dr Kim Un Yon's resignations, arrest, conviction & serving prison time & pardon. This is common knowledge. There was also posts about the terrible things GM Lee Won Kuk & his family & some of his students were subjected to, which resulted in him fleeing to Japan to escape more political oppression.
These were both explained as a result of the influence of the nasty Korean politics that have both assisted TKD's growth, development & spread, as well as hurt its progress & those involved in it.
Then of course there were the numerous negative posts about Gen Choi.
It now seems that there are attempts now to make this debate personal & that is sad. It is also not fitting in the realm of the martial arts. It seems that some are making this a fight. I am looking to participate in a dialogue, not fighting. I think the time is long gone for this type of attitude. It is somewhat disappointing that this continues from generation to generation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There really is nothing to deny or confirm. The screen name above has not posted anything negative about anyone.

The question is one of identity, not of negativity. Are you or are you not George Vitale?

If you are, then please say so. It would also be in good taste to request a change in screen name (taekwondo dad??) or sign your posts 'George.'

If you are not George Vitale, then simply say so and be done with it. This is a yes or no question. Answer yes or no. No need for a multi-paragraph response either.

If you do not wish to answer, then say so and be done with it, but understand that most of us will take that as a yes, so it is best to give the actual answer.

Personally, I don't care. But as the subject has come up, you really should address it.

I have already stated in another thread that if one is going to call someone else on their identity that they should be posting their own as well.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

I for one do not care if she or he is or not George Vitale, but it would be nice to know just for the record. I hate to call someone mam when they are indeed a sir.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I for one do not care if she or he is or not George Vitale, but it would be nice to know just for the record. I hate to call someone mam when they are indeed a sir.

My feeling as well. Not to mention that I would like to see an end to the issue.

Daniel