Regarding the future of TKD
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
I did not see where you addressed it, but as the name issue seems to have been brought up across multiple threads, I very likely missed it. No offense, but your conversations with Glenn kind of run together. So I take it that you are declining to answer? Fine with me, as I am not the one calling you out.
Please refer to yourself in the first person as 'me,' 'myself,' or 'I' rather than as "this screen name" Its silly... unless ''this screen name'' is being used by multiple people which may be against the terms of service (unsure about that).
Daniel
KarateMomUSA
Black Belt
Yes the silly back & forth do tend to drown out info, for which I am sorry for. Thank you.
OP
OP
I for one do not care if you are George or Georgia, what I do care if I am addressing a man or woman. So please say weather you are female or male? I think this **** is so funny because people tend to hide behind screen names, what is wrong with people knowing who you are? Wait it is a secret society that only fights the good fight of TKD, one bad the other good, the only problem is we do not know which one is which...... AS Martiasl Talk Turns, same bat time same bat channel same old ********.....
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Actually, no I did not.
You said this:the signatures of my instructor, and his, certifying that I had indeed met all the requirements, were then, and remain now, the only signatures I care about.
To which I asked this: What happens if and when your instructor retires or passes away? No more promotions for you?
And you responded with this: You missed my point entirely. Signatures from an instructor - no matter how highly ranked - who has never seen me perform are meaningless to me. The opinion of the seniors who actually know me - whether my instructor or others - is what matters. That opinion is shown through a variety of methods, one of which is a signature on a promotion certificate - but the feedback I get in and out of class is worth considerably more. In the end, certificates can be forged - but a reputation is earned.
Let me ask it this way then: The people who give you feedback in and out of class, which is worth considerably more to you than a signature on a certificate, when they pass away, does that mean no more feedback and no more promotions for you?
You said this:[FONT="]"I come from a large independent club within Australia that spans the east coast. I think it is valuable to have large organisations like the [/FONT][FONT="]Kukkiwon; however, I do not believe they are the be all of TKD, nor do I believe that one body needs to be responsible to unite all of TKD under one banner, other arts demonstrates richness in variety and as TKD grows it does as well. My club uses palgwe forms for coloured belts and we have never been exposed to Taeguek forms. The reasoning behind this has been argued one way or another probably even on this site. [/FONT] "
To which I asked you this: "Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members. How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then? "
You responded with this: "A certification in the Kukkiwon has no meaning or relevance to me, those who have chosen to promote me through the ranks are from with-in my organisation, they know my name and my face, and have seen me grow in the art, that has meaning to me. Do I want to be a part of a large bureaucracy that has its head office overseas? No, a Kukkiwon certificate would not make my rank feel more like I earned it than what it already does."
To which my response was this: "That really doesn't answer my question, but that is ok."
Then you comeback with this: "I am sorry that I am happy with how my club operates is not a worthy response for you. I am going to step out of the debate now. I hope you find the answers you are looking for."
I'm not asking you what your club does, or how happy you are with your club. What I asked was how would you feel about the Kukkiwon if your club issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification, given the fact that your club follows the Kukkiwon curriculum. You didn't answer that, but again, that's ok. As for me getting the answers i am looking for, at least from you, you first have to understand the question that I am asking.
There is more than one senior in my organization - for them all to die is unlikely, as there are others who are continuing to learn and train, who will take over for them when they're gone. Also, there are other seniors I know and respect in other organizations to whom I could go if necessary. For myself, I'm much more interested in continuing to learn and grow than I am in rank; after 24 years of training rank is not really what's important to me. I can get feedback from anyone - even a white belt can tell me if I'm in a good walking stance or not, or if my timing in consistent, whether the white belt knows the moves or not.
My point, whether you choose to accept it or not, whether it is the response you want or not, is that I am much more interested in feedback from those who know me than in certificates signed by people who have never met me. As far as the Kukkiwon goes - I've never been in it, and have never had nor sought Kukkiwon certification.
OP
OP
Well I will just add this, puuniu is very much set in his way and I believe he has a lack of respect to those that do not believe in what he does. He is very opinionated and believes in what only a certain group deem real TKD.
In all fairness though he does have that right, just wish he would remember people have that same right.
As the futureof TKD it will be still divided into mini splinter cells across the globe because senior and future seniors will never be able to accept the other orgs way of thinking. I am hoping that a more diverse section will bring the S.D. part back into TKD and develope it alot farther than it has overthe years.
In all fairness though he does have that right, just wish he would remember people have that same right.
As the futureof TKD it will be still divided into mini splinter cells across the globe because senior and future seniors will never be able to accept the other orgs way of thinking. I am hoping that a more diverse section will bring the S.D. part back into TKD and develope it alot farther than it has overthe years.
And my point is, whether you choose to accept it or not, whether it is the response you want or not, is that I never mentioned Kukkiwon certification to you. So why bring it up in your response?
Please do not speak for me since you obviously do not know what I believe or don't believe. I am very much not set in my way, and am in a constant state of evolution. I really think you have a reading comprehension issue. Try slowing down and reading more carefully. That might help.
It came up in a nearby post, and appeared to be an issue for you. You are clearly interested only in convincing others that you are right, and either others agree with you, or others are wrong; I see no evidence of a middle ground. I see no purpose in continuing this discussion under such circumstances.
It was an issue in a nearby post because that particular person trains using the Kukkiwon curriculum. You do not. Therefore, I didn't bring it up and instead wanted to understand the state of the ITF ten years post General Choi. Too bad your defensiveness prevented us from exploring that.
Neither do I. If that is your preconceived notion, then so be it.
OP
OP
Well I know I do not have one and whether you believe you are set in your way or not you come across that way. People can say one thing but there actions on forums speak valume. You have shown in every thread that if people do not agree with you or have your vision you write them off of not knowing anything, I know by reading your post over the years what it is about you, this is not my first rodeo or yours. Please do not try to insult my intelligents by making those remarks.
You have said numerous times that people try to put words in your mouth or this is not what you have said, but then you tell them they are wrong on accounts because you and your seniors believe in your ways. I have enjoyed the converstations over time but also I watch patterns of things. I refuse to get cought up in swinging who does not understand what each is saying, I can say the same thing about you but than again most people would just regard most of what you say to your beliefs.
I wish you could open your eye's to see other people views withouttrying to dis-claim everything they say. My grandfather was always argueing over issue's he believed to be right just like most of us now, but in the end it was his views and his alone that made his life worth living for all those years. I wish you a long life and continue success in your beliefs, and I will keep records for my childern and hopefully my grand childern one day. Maybe just maybe they will say see dad or granddad puuniu was right about unification and TKD in general. I hope alot of what you have written and speak of come to the forefront for the betterment of TKD, I have my doubts but I am set in my ways as well. Good thing I donot try to infuence my perspective on my childern but try to teach them what each and every person has to say.:asian:
Just take you as an example, how many times have I had to go back and show you that your restatement of what you thought my position was was incorrect? it's a waste of time. Get it right on the first go around.
Not because of my seniors and I, but rather because they failed to understand what I was writing. I just gave three examples of that, your false accusations to the contrary. Then they get mad and feel the need to make recriminatory comments in my direction.
I see other people's views fine. What I don't let slide are factual misrepresentations in support of those views. If you are going to have a point of view, at least let it be based on some truthful information, and not flawed misconception.
You are standing at a cross walk waiting for the light to turn green. Some guy starts yelling "Cross the street! The light is green!" when in fact the light is red. What do you teach your children about that, that it is ok to call a red light green, that we should take into consideration that person's point of view on the color of the light? Then I go and tell the guy, no the light is red. How should I respond to the onslaught of wild baseless accusations, including but not limited to the idea that I am set in my ways because I "believe" the light is red? What do you teach your children and grandchildren about that?
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Well said. I think people make this assumption with independent clubs that there is a GM and then 4000 white belts. If i had a dollar for every time somebody said to me "yeah, but what happens if your GM passes away?" , I'd be a millionaire. The fact is that in a well established club by the time the GM does pass on there are multiple high ranking people to continue the grading process. Within 3 years we will have 5x8th dans at my club and multiple 5th and 6th dans, so if the GM vanishes off the face of the earth tomorrow absolutely nothing changes. Bear in mind too, that at my club you wait the same number of years as the dan you are going for, unlike the kukki where you wait the same number of years as your current dan, so an 8th dan in my club has trained many years longer than a kukki 8th dan. Also, if tkd is to unify completely (which would be great), why does it have to unify under the kukki? I remember just before the 2000 olympics over here tkd was trying to unify and get everyone to join the WTF so they could potentially provide tkd athletes and one GM from a rival club (unaffiliated with 5000 students at the time) was quoted as saying "why should I join your group?, I have more students than all of your clubs put together, why dont you come and join my organisation?". It may have been an arrogant response, but his point was a good one. The kukki makes up only 'part' of all tkdists world wide, so why should everybody go and join them? Why dont we all unify under the ITF or the australian tkd assoc or any of the other orgs out there? Its seems that puuni is all for unification BUT only if its under the kukki banner.
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OP
OP
You are standing at a cross walk waiting for the light to turn green. Some guy starts yelling "Cross the street! The light is green!" when in fact the light is red. What do you teach your children about that, that it is ok to call a red light green, that we should take into consideration that person's point of view on the color of the light? Then I go and tell the guy, no the light is red. How should I respond to the onslaught of wild baseless accusations, including but not limited to the idea that I am set in my ways because I "believe" the light is red? What do you teach your children and grandchildren about that?
Now this is one of the things that irratate me about you Glen, we was talking about TKD, explaining what is right or wrong about crossing the street is different than examining what people have to say about the sport or art of TKD. Even by your own admission TKD has a shady past but yet each org has there view and perspective.
Let me just add this I teach both views about the creation of man but have my own beliefs, my childern and Grand childern will have to make that decission when they are old enought o fully understand, this is the same concept I try to bring about TKD. You see I do not see a right or wrong but rather people views about what has been written or talked about so each can believe what they choose and hopefully they will grow with TKD in the future and make a path that is right for them.
Now this is one of the things that irratate me about you Glen, we was talking about TKD, explaining what is right or wrong about crossing the street is different than examining what people have to say about the sport or art of TKD. Even by your own admission TKD has a shady past but yet each org has there view and perspective.
Let me just add this I teach both views about the creation of man but have my own beliefs, my childern and Grand childern will have to make that decission when they are old enought o fully understand, this is the same concept I try to bring about TKD. You see I do not see a right or wrong but rather people views about what has been written or talked about so each can believe what they choose and hopefully they will grow with TKD in the future and make a path that is right for them.
I'm not trying to recruit his 4000 member club; in that type of situation, the leaders of the club approach us, or have an intermediary approach us. We have a situation like that right now, where a group of about four or five thousand dan holders practicing the Chang Hon tul (w/o sine wave) wish to fully convert to Kukki Taekwondo, including but not limited to learning the Kukkiwon forms.
What I am trying to get him to realize is that he is not so different from the rest of us. Because that is how he feels, different. Taekwondo is an art of inclusion, and I am trying to do just that, include him.
To me it is the same thing, when we are dealing with facts. Of course you don't like it because your conception is loose, whereas I go for the precise.
There are some examples of things that we used to argue about with the facts vs. "view and perspective" people, but don't anymore:
GM HWANG Kee is the founder of Tang Soo Do.
General Choi was the President of the KTA from 1959 through 1966.
Ji Do Kwan, Chi Do Kwan and Yun Moo Kwan are three separate schools.
The Naming Committee met on April 11, 1955.
The Kukkiwon poomsae are done with long wide stances.
Those slap blocks in the beginning of Taebaek are done extremely slowly, using dynamic tension and breathing.
and so forth and so on. The people who used to be on the other side of the discussion used to make the exact same points that you try to make.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
"An 8th dan in my club has potentially trained many years longer than a kukki 8th dan". There's nothing to say that every/most Kukkiwon 8th Dans have graded at the earliest opportunity on every grading.
I would argue because that may be the case in your neck of the woods (5000 student club being larger than another group) but on a worldwide scale, the Kukkiwon is the largest group of Taekwondoin by far. So thinking globally, if we're going to unify surely it should be under what is already the largest group? Least change for the majority of practitioners.
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