Unification of TKd

[dancingalone]

A chance to be connected to something larger than themselves, to be a part of the big picture, to truly belong in the world of Taekwondo, instead of feeling like an outsider looking in, in their own small isolated pond, to have some acknowledgment and recognition from Korea, the mother country of Taekwondo. Those are some of the reasons why non-Kukkiwon practitioners seek out Kukkiwon certification. I've done enough converting to know. At some point, there comes a time when self defense or money or whatever else is not enough, that there is a longing I think for people to feel like they truly belong. I think GM LEE Haeng Ung felt like that, and wanted that for his members.

Respectfully, these are all assumptions that only exist in your vision of TKD. Not all accept your framework, making these core assertions hollow at best to them.

It's a bit like money or gold. They have value only because people have attached value to them. To a bird, seeds or bugs are far more desirable. Likewise, an attachment to your organization only has value to those who want the same things that your organization fosters or has built up over the years as a supporting framework.

 

[puunui]

Respectfully, these are all assumptions that only exist in your vision of TKD. Not all accept your framework, making these core assertions hollow at best to them.

You asked me why people would want Kukkiwon certification and I gave you the answers that people have told me over the years. I have done my share of conversions for non-Kukkiwon practitioners in my lifetime, and I am speaking from experience, not assumption. I'm sure there are people that do not wish to convert, which is what you are addressing. But that isn't the subject of your question, which is why would people want Kukkiwon certification.

 

[dancingalone]

Fair enough. Thank you for the response.

 

[leadleg]

It would be interesting to know what his reasoning was. Even at his death, I understand the ATA was already a very mature organization with ample popular tournaments.

As you probably know the ATA is very strict as to what their members practice and teach.I had a 3rd dan train with me for a couple of months,he had great kicks by the way, but he had word from the top that they were to be allowed to participate in and start teaching olympic style sparring.This was about 4years ago I am not sure if the ATA is doing olympic style at their tourneys or not.Anyone else know?

 

[dancingalone]

I am not sure if the ATA is doing olympic style at their tourneys or not.Anyone else know?

No, they are not. They still do the typical point sparring matches where breaks in action are called after every potential score.

 

[terryl965]

I have never seen any ATA school do Olympic sparringit goes against the principle of what they teach.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What do you believe would happen if everyone went under one unified banner for TKD? What do you believe to be the pro's and con's of a unification? What would happen to all those not affiliated and for unification? I know this is all just opinions and that is all we got but I would find this interesting to see what people thought of this.

This answer may ruffle some feathers, but that is not my intent.. . The most senior black belts left Korea in the 1950's -1960's. Many of them came to the U.S., and the majority of the pioneers of TKD in the U.S. were more experienced than those who were calling shots in the KKW back in the mother land. I know this was the reason my KJN never put any emphasis on becoming part of the KKW, well that and we are Moo Duk Kwan TKD. This is not to say that he did not support the progress of TKD, he was chairman of the Masters Delegation for the 88 olympics and coach at the 92 olympics, as well as holding V.P. position in the USTU (before that organization went to hell in a handbag).

My personal belief is that my loyalty is to TKD, not anyone person or any one organization. I diligently strive to pass on what my KJN has passed on to me, and as long as I successfully do that I have done my job. The KKW does not offer me anything of value, personally.

For me, most organizations bring more politics and restraints than positive contribution to the practice of the art. Five of the most senior traditional TKD masters in the U.S. tried to create a standardizing body for the preservation of traditional TKD about 10 years ago; the United States Taekwondo Won. My KJN was one of those founding masters. However, politics destroyed the USTW and now it is merely a shell of its former self. None of it changed what I do, but it did draw in alot of members looking to be a part of an organization connecting them to those five founding grandmasters.

Although, my KJN is getting up there in age, and because we are not part of a larger organization, when he passes I will essentially be a ronin. I believe that is why the founders of the USTW formed the organization; to create a standardized governing body for all traditional TKD in the U.S., without micromanaging exactly what you do in your own dojang.

So I guess to answer Terry's question, I see the evils and the redeeming qualities of being unified under a single governing body of TKD. However, for me the evils outweigh the redemption.

 

[terryl965]

Benjamin let me ask you this, what does your GM have to say about larger orgs? I mean he has been around a long time and must have voiced that to you. Also what about the USTC, do you believe them trying to preserve the art or jsut going to be a money hungry org?

 

[leadleg]

I don't know what principle that would be,unless it would be kepp your students in the fold,so they cannot experience anything we don't tell them,or charge them for.JK JK....
I know he said they were getting permission to do and teach oly style,whether they did it,I guess not.I do think this goes toward what they might have been thinking about KKW certification.
Personally I think it would be a buisiness decision, and not because of unification.

 

[puunui]

I have never seen any ATA school do Olympic sparringit goes against the principle of what they teach.

At least one ATA member, Mike Ajay, took silver at Nationals one year.

 

[dancingalone]

I do think this goes toward what they might have been thinking about KKW certification. Personally I think it would be a buisiness decision, and not because of unification.

Believe me, if they can find any one more thing to charge for, they will! I'm sure KKW certs would fit the 'bill'.

 

[puunui]

The most senior black belts left Korea in the 1950's -1960's. Many of them came to the U.S., and the majority of the pioneers of TKD in the U.S. were more experienced than those who were calling shots in the KKW back in the mother land.

Really? Who are those gentlemen?

I know this was the reason my KJN never put any emphasis on becoming part of the KKW, well that and we are Moo Duk Kwan TKD. This is not to say that he did not support the progress of TKD, he was chairman of the Masters Delegation for the 88 olympics and coach at the 92 olympics, as well as holding V.P. position in the USTU (before that organization went to hell in a handbag).

GM Kang had Kukkiwon 8th Dan at least that was his rank in 1997. So it would be more truthful to say that while he received Kukkiwon certification for himself, he didn't put emphasis on obtaining Kukkiwon certification for his students like you.

My personal belief is that my loyalty is to TKD, not anyone person or any one organization.

Not even to your teacher or your teacher's organization(s)?

I diligently strive to pass on what my KJN has passed on to me, and as long as I successfully do that I have done my job. The KKW does not offer me anything of value, personally.

In other words, you don't have Kukkiwon certification, do you?

Five of the most senior traditional TKD masters in the U.S. tried to create a standardizing body for the preservation of traditional TKD about 10 years ago; the United States Taekwondo Won. My KJN was one of those founding masters.

I don't think GM Kang is one of the five most senior practitioners in the United States. Off the top of my head, the five most senior ten years ago would be GM LEE Won Kuk, GM RO Byung Jick, GM KIM Ki Whang, GM KIM Yoo Jin, GM PARK Chull Hi, GM NAM Tae Hi, and GM Jhoon Rhee. GM Henry Cho is in there too, close to the top. There is also GM KIM Pyung Soo, GM LEE Moo Yong, GM KIM Jae Joon. GM Kang came later.

Although, my KJN is getting up there in age, and because we are not part of a larger organization, when he passes I will essentially be a ronin.

Too bad you aren't Kukkiwon certified. Then it wouldn't be such a big problem if and when your KJN passes away.

 

[terryl965]

At least one ATA member, Mike Ajay, took silver at Nationals one year.

I thought Mike also trained in Olympic for a good while before he did Nationals.

 

[puunui]

I thought Mike also trained in Olympic for a good while before he did Nationals.

I don't think so because when he won silver, he was known more as an open point fighter, like most of the competitors back then.

 

[terryl965]

I don't think so because when he won silver, he was known more as an open point fighter, like most of the competitors back then.

Yes like Arlene Limas was a great point fighter back then as well and then started training and learning the Olympic way and went on to the Olympics. I was under the impression Mike trained for almost a year before he went to National, I wish I could remember who told me that.

 

[leadleg]

I am curious if you put GM Rhee why not GM R. Chun,I believe the pres. of the WTF, Kim thought him vital to the movement in America at the time,first tourney etc..





I don't think GM Kang is one of the five most senior practitioners in the United States. Off the top of my head, the five most senior ten years ago would be GM LEE Won Kuk, GM RO Byung Jick, GM KIM Ki Whang, GM KIM Yoo Jin, GM PARK Chull Hi, GM NAM Tae Hi, and GM Jhoon Rhee. GM Henry Cho is in there too, close to the top. There is also GM KIM Pyung Soo, GM LEE Moo Yong, GM KIM Jae Joon. GM Kang came later.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Benjamin let me ask you this, what does your GM have to say about larger orgs? I mean he has been around a long time and must have voiced that to you. Also what about the USTC, do you believe them trying to preserve the art or jsut going to be a money hungry org?

Other than the KKW, which from his perspective is a bunch of kindergardeners trying to govern high schoolers, I don't believe he has anything inherently against large organizations. By in large, I don't think he really has anything against the KKW, other than the fact that he and his peers that came to the U.S. were senior/more experienced than those in charge. I know that he has been jaded by a certain organization he had belonged to in the past (USTU) because of politics.

His push is still with the USTW, but there isn't really any incentive for other schools/associations to join, becuase the USTW doesn't offer anything tangible for their members, other than a common goal of the preservation of traditional TKD. Well that and the fact that you can be promoted in Dan ranks through the USTW, which could be enticing for those of us whose KJN has passed away. The USTW is the only federal 501C TKD group in the U.S.

 

[leadleg]

Other than the KKW, which from his perspective is a bunch of kindergardeners trying to govern high schoolers, I don't believe he has anything inherently against large organizations. By in large, I don't think he really has anything against the KKW, other than the fact that he and his peers that came to the U.S. were senior/more experienced than those in charge. I know that he has been jaded by a certain organization he had belonged to in the past (USTU) because of politics.

His push is still with the USTW, but there isn't really any incentive for other schools/associations to join, becuase the USTW doesn't offer anything tangible for their members, other than a common goal of the preservation of traditional TKD. Well that and the fact that you can be promoted in Dan ranks through the USTW, which could be enticing for those of us whose KJN has passed away. The USTW is the only federal 501C TKD group in the U.S.

What about AAU Taekwondo,they have 501 c, as a member you can have that status under their umbrella,costs like 300 dollars a year though.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Really? Who are those gentlemen?




GM Kang had Kukkiwon 8th Dan at least that was his rank in 1997. So it would be more truthful to say that while he received Kukkiwon certification for himself, he didn't put emphasis on obtaining Kukkiwon certification for his students like you.



Not even to your teacher or your teacher's organization(s)?




In other words, you don't have Kukkiwon certification, do you?




I don't think GM Kang is one of the five most senior practitioners in the United States. Off the top of my head, the five most senior ten years ago would be GM LEE Won Kuk, GM RO Byung Jick, GM KIM Ki Whang, GM KIM Yoo Jin, GM PARK Chull Hi, GM NAM Tae Hi, and GM Jhoon Rhee. GM Henry Cho is in there too, close to the top. There is also GM KIM Pyung Soo, GM LEE Moo Yong, GM KIM Jae Joon. GM Kang came later.




Too bad you aren't Kukkiwon certified. Then it wouldn't be such a big problem if and when your KJN passes away.

1. You named most of them above; "GM LEE Won Kuk, GM RO Byung Jick, GM KIM Ki Whang, GM KIM Yoo Jin, GM PARK Chull Hi, GM NAM Tae Hi, GM Jhoon Rhee, GM Henry Cho, GM KIM Pyung Soo, GM LEE Moo Yong, GM KIM Jae Joon. Others I can think of off the top of my head: Kyong Won AHN, Il Joo KIM, Il Ho KIM, Chan Hak PARK, and Myung Kun OH. My statement wasn't really about my KJN being sooo senior, only that he felt there were more senior black belts scattered across the globe than in Korea.

2. Yes, I am aware that my KJN has a KKW certificate, and yes that is accurate to say that he hasn't emphasized his students to become KKW certified. He has supported any of his students that wished to become KKW certified, I have just never pursued it.

3. Not in my opinion, my loyalty to the art is above all else. I can't imagine that it would ever be the case, but if my teacher did something that hindered me passing on the art, then I would side with the art over my teacher.

4. No, I am not KKW certified.

5. I should have been more careful with my words. Not most senior, but more senior. I am well aware of those more senior in experience than my KJN.

6. When my KJN passes, I can still seek KKW certification. His passing would not hinder me from getting KKW certified if I chose to go that route.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What about AAU Taekwondo,they have 501 c, as a member you can have that status under their umbrella,costs like 300 dollars a year though.

Good point.