Regarding the future of TKD

[KarateMomUSA]

The official poomsae are getting cut, so why should we open up the floodgates and recognize every form created by every private organization under the sun? What next, should astronomy departments in universities start offering up courses in biblical creationism as well?

Well I guess leaders have to decide what they want. Do they want unification of TKD or absorption of the non Kukki TKD into the KKW.
Correct me if I am wrong, but any non Kukki TKD could have always joined the KKW & followed their methods, rules, etc. right?
So it seems that you may be advocating not a joining together or unification, unifying, but simply allowing outsiders in, so they can do what the KKW is doing. That is fine, as that option seemed to always be there, but I don't know if that is unification.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Unification has, for the most part, already happened. The ITF and General Choi was severely weakened when he went to North Korea because many of the Korean born ITF instructors looked at him as a traitor and jumped ship. Ten years after General Choi's death, we see the ITF shattered into who knows how many different factions. In contrast, there are over 500 Kukkiwon 9th Dan out there, many of whom were former ITF members. How many ITF 9th Dan are out there? That should give you a clue as to the size differences of the two, and that is only at the top of the pyramid.

Everyone is welcome into Kukki Taekwondo. If you wish to come in, we can talk about it. But if you are going to show up making radical demands which require wholesale policy changes, then that's ok. In that case, don't join. We can wait a generation or two when your students or grand students show interest in being part of the larger more connected world. At that point, the ITF students will have no personal connection to General Choi, and the switch will be that much more easier for them, if not for you.

Yes there was of course several unification efforts in the past, with the most successful one being the one signed in Aug of 1978. However I am not talking about the ITF, but all non Kukki TKD. There is no doubt that the Kukki TKD is tops. But even many that are Kukki TKD think they are WTF TKD. I think with the current schism that was developing between the WTF & KKW will hopefully be sorted out. I also think that the new leadership may be more open to making their umbrella stretch out even wider. I am not so sure if they are as hard line as the pioneers that set it up are & maybe you are.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I am a first degree black belt under my GM's system, not the kukki system so why would I want a kukki black belt?

I again agree with Puunui, especially if you are a I Dan. You can have the best of both worlds. Have them process your paperwork, hopefully preserving your actual test date. They you will continue to have & be proud to hold your GM's certificate, but also have an official KKW one as well. You will not only be in the driver's seat, but have so many roads open to you to travel down, even if you don't see them now or see no need for them now.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I again agree with Puunui, especially if you are a I Dan. You can have the best of both worlds. Have them process your paperwork, hopefully preserving your actual test date. They you will continue to have & be proud to hold your GM's certificate, but also have an official KKW one as well. You will not only be in the driver's seat, but have so many roads open to you to travel down, even if you don't see them now or see no need for them now.

I appreciate where you are coming from,but I would almost feel like I had a 'fake' qualification. It would be like if someone got me medical degree in my name without me actually knowing the first thing about medicine. I may have the qualification but in real terms is would be of little use because I couldnt go and work as a doctor. Thats how I feel about getting a kukki cert. I may have the piece of paper neatly framed hanging on my wall, but if I dont know the stuff it would be of little use to me in real terms.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Excellent! History is not a problem & may be the easiest to solve, once we include the common starting point & all the paths of development taken from the early kwan years. That is the least of the problem, solved by the stroke of the pen & the taping on letter keys.
If the KKW were to expand & embrace all, with various departments, there would not only be plenty of room for all, but the petty organizations would eventually die out if they did not see the vision, the writing on the wall & work with the world TKD academy.

Once again, you take it back to history.

Look, would it be cool if the KKW had Chang Hon and Songahm departments? Sure. Is it needed? No. Each of those yu have their own established organization or are represented by many independents. The majority of independents that I see are doing Chang Hon, at least in the states. Why give up what they have? The answer is that they won't.

Look, you need to just say, "The ITF and Chang Hon system was founded by General Choi and his followers who chose to go a different direction from that of the other kwans that eventually united into the Kukkiwon. Both groups have a common root but have gone in different directions" and then leave it at that and stop demanding recognition from the group that the ITF split from. Not going to happen, and frankly, there is no valid reason why it should.

As for the future of the art, the biggest thing hurting the art right now (in my opinion) is rampant commercialism coupled with low quality in a large number of schools (not most, but the bad always get more attention than the good).

This is not unique to taekwondo, by the way, but I do believe that it has hit taekwondo the hardest, primarily because its popularity made it a target for entrepreneuers with more business sense than taekwondo training and for school owners who essentially sold out for cash. The economy tanking isn't helping, but that is an external factor.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Look, would it be cool if the KKW had Chang Hon and Songahm departments? Sure. Is it needed? No. Each of those yu have their own established organization or are represented by many independents. The majority of independents that I see are doing Chang Hon, at least in the states. Why give up what they have? The answer is that they won't.

Yes you are right, but I guess there is nothing too wrong with dreaming, as well as you don't lose sight of reality, but your statement is realistic.

Look, you need to just say, "The ITF and Chang Hon system was founded by General Choi and his followers who chose to go a different direction from that of the other kwans that eventually united into the Kukkiwon. Both groups have a common root but have gone in different directions" and then leave it at that and stop demanding recognition from the group that the ITF split from. Not going to happen, and frankly, there is no valid reason why it should.

Again you are right, but it would be nice & probably needed in some way if some were to work for a real unification & not just an absorption, not just for them, but all TKDin not now under the KW banner.

As for the future of the art, the biggest thing hurting the art right now (in my opinion) is rampant commercialism coupled with low quality in a large number of schools (not most, but the bad always get more attention than the good).
This is not unique to taekwondo, by the way, but I do believe that it has hit taekwondo the hardest, primarily because its popularity made it a target for entrepreneuers with more business sense than taekwondo training and for school owners who essentially sold out for cash. The economy tanking isn't helping, but that is an external factor.

Also a good point.

 

[puunui]

Cooperation is the necessary step before any possible hope of unification. I also respectfully suggest that in order for cooperation to begin, groups looking to cooperate, must feel welcomed & what they bring to the table must be embraced. If not, it really is not cooperation or unification, but an absorption, don't you think?

Mr. Vitale, there was cooperation in the unification. Again, the Oh Do Kwan was present through its Kwan Jang at the time, GM HYUN Jong Myung. Everybody gave up their stuff when they went with the unified curriculum. The whole point of the 60's and early 70's was that, working through kwan differences and coming up with a unified curriculum which the pioneers agreed to, including but not limited to the Chang Hon pioneers.

 

[puunui]

Our GM gets all our belts, uniforms, kicking pads etc from his contacts in korea and sells them to us cheaper or the same price as we could get them here.

What kind of uniform do you wear, v neck or cross over?

 

[puunui]

Again you are right, but it would be nice & probably needed in some way if some were to work for a real unification & not just an absorption, not just for them, but all TKDin not now under the KW banner.

Whose efforts were already made, decades ago. Again, everyone sacrificed their own individual style and accepted the new unified curriculum. Even GM LEE Won Kuk was accepting of the new curriculum, because he put it in his book. He accepted the name change, the uniform changes, all of the changes. I read somewhere that GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were better than him, but that is what you strive for, otherwise the art does not progress and grow. And he has seen it back in Japan, watching son Giko Sensei surpass his father in ability and skill, and also in Korea, watching his students change and build something that I don't believe anyone could have conceived of back in the 40's. From five small dojang sprung over 70 million practitioners, which is a conservative number in my opinion. But if you don't wish to be a part of it, then you really don't need to.

 

[dancingalone]

And he has seen it back in Japan, watching son Giko Sensei surpass his father in ability and skill,

Heresy! :ultracool

 

[puunui]

I think with the current schism that was developing between the WTF & KKW will hopefully be sorted out.

Again, there is no schism between the Kukkiwon and the WTF.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What kind of uniform do you wear, v neck or cross over?

we must wear cross over. No v-necks allowed.

 

[puunui]

we must wear cross over. No v-necks allowed.

When they first came out, I didn't like v necks. Harder to take off when you are sweaty. But then they improved the fabric and all I want to wear is v necks, although I still have cross over for Hapkido. But even hapkido I buy different pants for it, for the comfort.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

When they first came out, I didn't like v necks. Harder to take off when you are sweaty. But then they improved the fabric and all I want to wear is v necks, although I still have cross over for Hapkido. But even hapkido I buy different pants for it, for the comfort.

I must admit, Ive always wanted to wear a v-neck uniform, I seem to be constanyly adjusting my cross over one.

 

[puunui]

I must admit, Ive always wanted to wear a v-neck uniform, I seem to be constanyly adjusting my cross over one.

Maybe one day, when you have your own school, you can wear a v neck.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Maybe one day, when you have your own school, you can wear a v neck.

Id love to have my own school oneday, but that would be a long way into the future I imagine.

 

[Steven Craig]

[FONT=&quot]This is for puunui, although you seem extremely passionate about unification, I just thought you may be interested in the thoughts of another from an independent club, if not please just disregard my ramblings.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I come from a large independent club within Australia that spans the east coast. I think it is valuable to have large organisations like the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Kukkiwon; however, I do not believe they are the be all of TKD, nor do I believe that one body needs to be responsible to unite all of TKD under one banner, other arts demonstrates richness in variety and as TKD grows it does as well. My club uses palgwe forms for coloured belts and we have never been exposed to Taeguek forms. The reasoning behind this has been argued one way or another probably even on this site. How I see it is the TKD club down the road that is affiliated with the Kukkiwon is run very differently to the one I have chosen for myself and my family. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My club was once a part of the Kukkiwon, but for reasons that I am not fully aware, nor want to go into detail about, (nor care about)have chosen to separate long before I joined. I have chosen my club for a variety of reasons, and when I started I did not care about the wider politics of my own club, little though TKD as a whole. What I do know when it comes to club or TKD politics I would rather not as I am there for simple reasons to train, to get fit to have fun in doing so. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As I have over the years found it an enjoyable pastime that I have put more and more effort into I have also discovered the wider range within the art. For those who want a single governing body, join the Kukkiwon and accept what comes with the association, but for me I am content where I am. If I was not or if I wanted my children to compete outside of the TKD body I am apart of I would join a different club and learn the curriculum that would come with that association, even if it meant the loss of my rank and going through the coloured belts again. If I joined a club that was as different as friends of mine who go to the Kukkiwon affiliated club down the road, then I would prefer to go through the coloured belts again as I would not feel a BB in such a vastly different organisation to the one I am in.[/FONT]

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I would think that Puunui, while passionate about the KKW & having all TKD been seen as one, he sounds more like he would want everyone to join the KKW. This is a bit different from a union with the KKW, which is the root for the word unification, which is more of a merger or consolidation, like the union that formed the UNITED States.
He does make good points about the unification efforts of the 1960s that led to the present day KKW. It seems that he would much rather prefer outsiders to just join or be absorbed by the KKW. I will let him address that if he wishes, as I am sure he can better explain my take on his thoughts.
While I do believe that is both a just cause & can have benefits for many, it simply leaves out a big piece of the puzzle, which is, what the millions of others outside the KKW have been doing from the 1960s & 1970s & even before the Korean Tae Soo Do & KKW were even formed. Many of these millions have been doing a martial art called TKD. I do not think that a true unification can happen without both discussion, consideration & some accommodation for all involved. This is why I think that a real unification will never happen, but if there was to be a hope for it, it would make sense that the KKW would have to expand so those looking to unite, not just join, will find that not only are they welcomed, but have a place.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Again, there is no schism between the Kukkiwon and the WTF.

Yes it does sound like the current schism that was developing is being sorted out, as the 2 leaders seem to be working better than the previous leaders were. I think they may share more of a outlook together, which sounds like the previous leaders & members of the old guard are not happy about.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Whose efforts were already made, decades ago. Again, everyone sacrificed their own individual style and accepted the new unified curriculum. Even GM LEE Won Kuk was accepting of the new curriculum, because he put it in his book. He accepted the name change, the uniform changes, all of the changes. I read somewhere that GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were better than him, but that is what you strive for, otherwise the art does not progress and grow. And he has seen it back in Japan, watching son Giko Sensei surpass his father in ability and skill, and also in Korea, watching his students change and build something that I don't believe anyone could have conceived of back in the 40's. From five small dojang sprung over 70 million practitioners, which is a conservative number in my opinion. But if you don't wish to be a part of it, then you really don't need to.

Yes I find little to quibble about. In fact this is noble indeed. However it does leave out that not all did unify then & that millions around the world continued to grow & develop separately. So while you present an option for those to join the past unification of decades ago, that retroactive joining is not a unification, but an absorption into the KKW, a present day entity that was created in 1972 by a true but somewhat incomplete unification. That option was always there for the millions outside of the KKW umbrella & still is. But joining a group is a bit different from unifying or becoming united with one. While some may see benefit in that, I am sure others may not. That is good, as it is an optional path.