Regarding the future of TKD

[puunui]

One question: If you wanted to obtain a Kukkiwon 1st Dan, how much would your organization charge you for it?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Does one really need to know the past to unite Tae Kwon Do for the future? I was just talking to some people and they feel as well as I that the past maybe what is truely stoping the actual growth of TKD to be unified. I am not sure if it is true but I have to agree with them that it seems if we cannot bring the founding fathers together how can we bring the young people to relize this dream of unification.

In another thread on the same subject, I stated that it depends upon the type of unity that you want. There is organizational unity and unity within the art.

With organizational unity, the issue at this point is not past history. The issue is at this point that the worms are out of the can with regards to multiple federations and independents.

Once each grouip or individual has staked out their territory and brought others into it, they become the monarch/oligarchy at the top, it is virtually guaranteed that they will never give that up.

Unity within the art would be more attainable. For that, taekwondo becomes a martial art (mudo or muye) with multiple yus (ryus) within, kind of like karate or hapkido, each of which share enough common characteristics, technical aspects, and lineage to be considered 'taekwondo.'

As to which type of unity is more desireable, it would depend on who you ask.

Daniel

 

[Kacey]

There is more than one national or international organization for many sports, sciences, businesses, etc. How is the diversity in TKD different, and more in need of unification?

As a separate issue from unification, cooperation is, IMHO, a goal to be worked toward - I see many benefits from cooperating with other TKD organizations, and few, if any, negatives.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Taekwondo's past is only troublesome and Taekwondo history is only clouded and controversial if you attempt to blend in General Choi's claims and lies with what actually happened. I have a very clear picture of Taekwondo's past, which is not clouded or controversial. It is a very inspiring story, one of unity and cooperation.

Yes & so do I. I do share with you for the most part, much of what you have posted. There is little doubt about that. But if the future of TKD is going to be 1 of unity or more cooperation I think that instead of ignoring or putting down the other side(s), acknowledge what they have done & welcome them into the larger family.
But I know that this will probably not happen, for some sad, obvious reasons.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

We already have that. If you wish to be an athlete, you train under a competent instructor. If you want to be an instructor, you take the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. If you wish to be a referee, you take the International Referee course. If you want to work on self defense primarily, no one will stop you. If you wish to get into the sports medicine or athletic training aspects, you can do that, and then write your high dan thesis on these areas. The only limits in Taekwondo are the limits you place on yourself.

Yes I do realize that this is the case already in any TKD group. However what I was saying was that under the world TKD academy, there would be separate departments or branches that would also include different sets of patterns & different styles of TKD, where any TKDin can cross train, supplement their own knowledge by expanding their own base & have greater opportunity to attend other events that they may not have before, which can only help individuals grow.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The only way you will get complete unification is if everyone joins the kukkiwon, but that will never happen so there will always be 'factions'.

Unless all the factions can come into the KKW & operate with them, under their umbrella.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Do you think that at some point clubs may have to be liscened by tho gov't, I do.
If they ever are I could see a lot of people looking to an organisation for liscensing, the KKW may be the most reliable and easiest to aquire.
Wait you are from Australia,perhaps that will not be an issue there.

I think this is already the case in some places, like south Korea, where 1 must be licensed by the KKWto open a TKD dojang. However in other countries I think licensing will be more in line with solving problems caused in the locations by a lack of license, ie:
no bonding or insurance in case of accident or school closing in the middle of the night
no 1st aid training, cpr etc
lack of physical science education
lack of academic methods of instruction or teacher education
criminal background screening
safety for children & safe place for children

I am not sure that any govt entity will look to an outside the country organization to license locals. They may require & should, legitimate certification from the sport, art, discipline or physical activity that 1 is going to teach & the KKW would address that aspect.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Nothing would get done if all objections had to first be overcome. In your case, you are semi already there. What is the harm in getting that Kukkiwon certification? You may not think you need it now, but who knows what the future holds. I can tell you terrible tale of woe after tale of friends of mine who did not think that Kukkiwon certification was important way back when, but now they realize they wish they got it way back when. I have a friend I have been trying to promote to Kukkiwon dan for over twenty years, and then all of a sudden he wanted it a couple of years ago, mainly so he can promote his students. I had to start him off at 1st Dan, he is 2nd Dan now, and next year he will be 3rd.

Yes I agree again, we should try. But shouldn't the trying be on all sides? Shouldn't part of the trying be to accommodate the many who never followed the KKW system? And if people are to be welcomed, they should be embraced in my opinion, their background & training should be respected & incorporated. Unification or closer cooperation & working together may never happen, but it is not impossible. It would just have to take time, appreciation & understanding by everyone, along with sections that will appeal to them.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I think the main reason I have not gone and got a kukkiwon cert is because I dont believe that what I do is closely related enough to the kukki curriculum. After watching local clubs train/demo who are kukki affiliated it just reiterates my belief that I would be very out of my depth at a kukki club. We spar differently, our forms are different, our stances look different and so forth. If, for some reason my club, or the other 2 local clubs who are non affiliated ceased to exist tomorrow (and there is a better chance of pigs flying when I awake tomorrow), I really think I would probably persue a different art and Id be happy to put on the white belt and start over. I think I would probably start in hapkido as it looks like a lot of fun to me and a lot of it seems very similar to what we do in parts and would seem like a logical progression from what I do currently. I think I would really struggle physically to go and start at a kukki club and start learning taegeks and olympic style sparring etc. If just my club vanished tomorrow I would go and join one of the other independent "old school" clubs as their curriculum is very similar to ours and they would start me at my current rank providing I did the palgwes, some sparring, self defence, timber breaking etc. I did give thought at one point to getting a kukki cert but for me it really serves no purpose as its a certification for something I cant/dont do.

Yes these are legitimate feelings & good points. But unification or closer cooperation could work, if there were additional branches that will help all TKDin to grow & expand. If it was under the 1 roof of the KKW, it would not only be a 1 stop shopping, but a place to go to experiment & expand with the other branches. If this happened, more would see the things we have in common, then feel excited with the opportunity to learn more, share with new friends & expand one's base.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

That, in my opinion, is not a sufficient reason not to get Kukkiwon certification. Again, you never know how your interests will change. And they will change, believe me. And if they don't change, then that means you are not really growing, if you are thinking the same thoughts that you are today. Think about when you were five years old. Are you still thinking the same thoughts as you were back then? Are your priorities the same? It's up to you, but for me, better safe than sorry. Throw it in the closet if you don't want to look at it, but at least it is there, in case your thinking changes in the future.

Yes & this is exactly a benefit of working together & across lines set up by others. I love when I hear stories about how excited students get when they learn new material, have additional perspectives, exposures & experiences introduced to them. This is the key or a main 1 to say the least, great point!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I agree wholeheartedly, and I am one for changing my mind regularly(just ask any of my mates), BUT, I still think if I woke up tomorrow and thought "you know what, I really want to get into kukki tkd, it looks like a lot of fun", I would be better off joining a kukki club, donning the white belt and learning the curriculum from ground up. My current black belt has about as much relevence to kukki tkd as it does to BJJ, they are chalk and cheese. I would be embarrassed to walk into a kukki club in a black belt because when it comes to kukki tkd I am a complete newbie and should start all over. Probably the time it would take me to learn the taegeks and adjust to their sparring and techs etc would be the same amount of time it would take to just start over and get a black belt from scratch. Its the exact reason that when kukki black belts come to our club they start at white belt.

Yes & that is an admirable way to look at it & a bonafide way to pursue it. I think you may be surprised to see that we all have things in common, both physically & other. There would be nothing to prevent someone from starting over, if that is what they feel would work best for them. But a KKW that embraced all, would be a great start & 1 stop shopping!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

In another thread on the same subject, I stated that it depends upon the type of unity that you want. There is organizational unity and unity within the art.
With organizational unity, the issue at this point is not past history. The issue is at this point that the worms are out of the can with regards to multiple federations and independents.
Once each grouip or individual has staked out their territory and brought others into it, they become the monarch/oligarchy at the top, it is virtually guaranteed that they will never give that up.
Unity within the art would be more attainable. For that, taekwondo becomes a martial art (mudo or muye) with multiple yus (ryus) within, kind of like karate or hapkido, each of which share enough common characteristics, technical aspects, and lineage to be considered 'taekwondo.'
As to which type of unity is more desireable, it would depend on who you ask.
Daniel

Excellent! History is not a problem & may be the easiest to solve, once we include the common starting point & all the paths of development taken from the early kwan years. That is the least of the problem, solved by the stroke of the pen & the taping on letter keys.
If the KKW were to expand & embrace all, with various departments, there would not only be plenty of room for all, but the petty organizations would eventually die out if they did not see the vision, the writing on the wall & work with the world TKD academy.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

There is more than one national or international organization for many sports, sciences, businesses, etc. How is the diversity in TKD different, and more in need of unification?
As a separate issue from unification, cooperation is, IMHO, a goal to be worked toward - I see many benefits from cooperating with other TKD organizations, and few, if any, negatives.

Absolutely! Cooperation is the necessary step before any possible hope of unification. I also respectfully suggest that in order for cooperation to begin, groups looking to cooperate, must feel welcomed & what they bring to the table must be embraced. If not, it really is not cooperation or unification, but an absorption, don't you think?

 

[puunui]

Yes & so do I. I do share with you for the most part, much of what you have posted. There is little doubt about that. But if the future of TKD is going to be 1 of unity or more cooperation I think that instead of ignoring or putting down the other side(s), acknowledge what they have done & welcome them into the larger family. But I know that this will probably not happen, for some sad, obvious reasons.

So what is your solution George, create or support a Taekwondo Hall of Fame and give everyone plaques?

Mr. Vitale, I do not believe you have a clear picture of Taekwondo's history. I say that because whenever I read your rambling posts which say basically the same thing over and over about original this, 7 koreans, 6 kwans, nasty korean politics, and all the rest, I feel myself getting mired and muddle within the confusion of your thoughts. And again, no one is ignoring anyone, they have been acknowledged, and have been welcomed in, since the beginning, a point you consistently ignore.

 

[puunui]

However what I was saying was that under the world TKD academy, there would be separate departments or branches that would also include different sets of patterns & different styles of TKD, where any TKDin can cross train, supplement their own knowledge by expanding their own base & have greater opportunity to attend other events that they may not have before, which can only help individuals grow.

George, did you raise this issue with GM UHM Woon Kyu when you visited him at the Kukkiwon when he was president? If so, what were his comments on that subject?

Mr. Vitale, the idea was considered and rejected when the KTA committee (which included the Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan at the time) created the unified poomsae. So the Chang Hon tul were represented and accounted for by the Oh Do Kwan's contribution and input. If you want to hang on to your precious tul, then no one is stopping you. Go teach them to your students at the Original Taekwon-Do dojang if you want. But that doesn't mean that the Kukkiwon has to open up a "Department of Chang Hon tul" in their facility. If anything, the Kukkiwon is streamlining the poomsae by eliminating the Palgwae poomsae altogether. The official poomsae are getting cut, so why should we open up the floodgates and recognize every form created by every private organization under the sun? What next, should astronomy departments in universities start offering up courses in biblical creationism as well?

 

[puunui]

Yes I agree again, we should try. But shouldn't the trying be on all sides? Shouldn't part of the trying be to accommodate the many who never followed the KKW system? And if people are to be welcomed, they should be embraced in my opinion, their background & training should be respected & incorporated. Unification or closer cooperation & working together may never happen, but it is not impossible. It would just have to take time, appreciation & understanding by everyone, along with sections that will appeal to them.

Unification has, for the most part, already happened. The ITF and General Choi was severely weakened when he went to North Korea because many of the Korean born ITF instructors looked at him as a traitor and jumped ship. Ten years after General Choi's death, we see the ITF shattered into who knows how many different factions. In contrast, there are over 500 Kukkiwon 9th Dan out there, many of whom were former ITF members. How many ITF 9th Dan are out there? That should give you a clue as to the size differences of the two, and that is only at the top of the pyramid.

Everyone is welcome into Kukki Taekwondo. If you wish to come in, we can talk about it. But if you are going to show up making radical demands which require wholesale policy changes, then that's ok. In that case, don't join. We can wait a generation or two when your students or grand students show interest in being part of the larger more connected world. At that point, the ITF students will have no personal connection to General Choi, and the switch will be that much more easier for them, if not for you.

Put another way, the ITF is like the Titanic that hit the iceberg and is going down. Some passengers have banded together in their lifeboats, and will do ok. Others are treading water. Along comes another ship the size of a nuclear aircraft carrier called the USS Kukkiwon and they are willing to pick up as many passengers from the USS ITF as possible. How willing do you think the captain of the Kukkiwon is going to be if one of the people treading water makes all kinds of demands to change ship protocol and procedure before the aircraft carrier can have the privilege of taking him aboard? If you don't want the nuclear aircraft carrier to pick you up, then fine, stay in the water, or in your NK ITF life boat. The nuclear aircraft carrier will be fine without you and your input regarding procedures on a ship that sunk because its founding captain threw his son overboard and steered the ship into a north korean iceberg.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

One question: If you wanted to obtain a Kukkiwon 1st Dan, how much would your organization charge you for it?

Without actually knowing for sure, I doubt they would charge any more than what it costs them. They dont really profit much at all out of the 'extras'. Our GM gets all our belts, uniforms, kicking pads etc from his contacts in korea and sells them to us cheaper or the same price as we could get them here. Our training fees and grading fees are extremely competitively priced and our GM has never been driven by making a profit. I know he used to give out kukki certs back in the day and from what Ive been told the cost was minimal.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yes & that is an admirable way to look at it & a bonafide way to pursue it. I think you may be surprised to see that we all have things in common, both physically & other. There would be nothing to prevent someone from starting over, if that is what they feel would work best for them. But a KKW that embraced all, would be a great start & 1 stop shopping!

Exactly. I have never been driven by rank or belts. I am a first degree black belt under my GM's system, not the kukki system so why would I want a kukki black belt? When people say "but dont you want to be able to keep your black belt even if you had to go to another club?" , it makes no sense to me. If I went to another club with a different curriculum and a different way of doing things Id be the first to put on a white belt and jump to the end of the line and start learning from scratch. This is why I have not been concerned about not having a kukki cert.

 

[puunui]

Exactly. I have never been driven by rank or belts. I am a first degree black belt under my GM's system, not the kukki system so why would I want a kukki black belt?

As a first degree black belt, if you think you know what's best for you, then don't get it. No one is forcing you. Back when I was a first dan, I had no idea what was or wasn't important. More power to you. But whatever happens in the future, you cannot say that you weren't told or encouraged. And if you are ok with that, then that's the end of the discussion.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

As a first degree black belt, if you think you know what's best for you, then don't get it. No one is forcing you. Back when I was a first dan, I had no idea what was or wasn't important. More power to you. But whatever happens in the future, you cannot say that you weren't told or encouraged. And if you are ok with that, then that's the end of the discussion.

To be honest, if our curriculum was similar to kukki (same forms etc) then I probably would get the cert just to be on the safe side, but considering I dont know the kukki curriculum it really is of little use to me.