Rant: Placing value in yourself based on others' accomplishments

[miguksaram]

As far as I'm concerned, there are good black belts that come from crappy schools, and crappy black belts that somehow squeaked by in decent schools, just as there are people who graduated from college with excellent educations and people who passed with all Ds and never set foot in the library.

Reminds me of a joke...What do you call the guy who finished dead last in medical school?.....Doctor.

 

[MJS]

It's funny I read these post about rank and dan certificates and all I hear is nobody cares about where or from who your dan certificate comes from but, god forbid a six year old should share the same rank as us old timers who trained back in the day!
So we will lable them a McDojang or something else to show other that no little 70 pound kid could do what i have done!
I was reading this article on Erine Reyes Jr. I said that when he was in his teens and was competing he was beating adult fighters, so the tournament promoters started the age brackets to keep him out of the adult divisions.

So by your logic, how long would that 6yr old have to train to get BB? Of course, if you've read some of the other posts, and I know I've said this, but I'd rather see a 12yr old Jr. BB, instead of an adult BB strapped on them. At least they have something that is 1 step away from black, while continuing to mature and understand what it means to wear the belt.

I guess thats too much to ask though.

Oh and as for Reyes Jr....as I've also said, there are always exceptions to the rule. Is every single kid that starts training, going to be the next Ernie Reyes Jr.? I doubt it.

 

[dancingalone]

Are you really a better Martial art person because you got the crap kicked out of you and lost a tooth? I know alot of guy's who have had the same thing done to them in bars on Saturday nights who have never trained in the martial arts!

You probably don't want to hear this, but in my opinion, DEFINITELY. None of the technical skills we work to develop mean anything if in the heat of battle we take a hard shot and fall to pieces. Toughness is a required attribute for fighters. I suppose you can be a martial artist without being a fighter, but in my case I prefer to be both for myself personally and also for my students.

 

[NPTKD]

So by your logic, how long would that 6yr old have to train to get BB? Of course, if you've read some of the other posts, and I know I've said this, but I'd rather see a 12yr old Jr. BB, instead of an adult BB strapped on them. At least they have something that is 1 step away from black, while continuing to mature and understand what it means to wear the belt.

I guess thats too much to ask though.

Oh and as for Reyes Jr....as I've also said, there are always exceptions to the rule. Is every single kid that starts training, going to be the next Ernie Reyes Jr.? I doubt it.

POOM BELT....... That what under 15yrs get at my school. No nevre hit, I just remember being slapped down by admin for saying something similar! Rules are rules!

 

[miguksaram]

We knocked each other around the dojo during the eighties. Blood and bruises expected without question. Belt exams often ended with someone puking or fainting. Blood, sweat, and tears...

I doubt your son is doing that, is he? Different times.

My oldest, 15, just took his Jr. BB test in August. I can say that the 80's are alive and well at our school. ...not so much blood during classes, but definetly bruises. Testings for BB will definetly have at least one person hitting the puking, fainting, blood, sweat and tears phase.

I tested for my 1st dan in Shorei at the same time as he tested for his Jr. BB. I hit 3.5 of those 5 issues during the test...just barely squeeked by the fainting.

 

[dancingalone]

Reminds me of a joke...What do you call the guy who finished dead last in medical school?.....Doctor.

The joke works both ways.

What do you call a paper black belt? A victim.

 

[dancingalone]

My oldest, 15, just took his Jr. BB test in August. I can say that the 80's are alive and well at our school. ...not so much blood during classes, but definetly bruises. Testings for BB will definetly have at least one person hitting the puking, fainting, blood, sweat and tears phase.

I tested for my 1st dan in Shorei at the same time as he tested for his Jr. BB. I hit 3.5 of those 5 issues during the test...just barely squeeked by the fainting.

Good stuff. Thumbs up from me. Frankly I never understand why anyone would be proud of their black belt if they didn't sweat and bleed for it.

 

[MJS]

POOM BELT....... That what under 15yrs get at my school.

You'll have to forgive me, as I'm not up to par on the TKD terms. I'm assuming poom is similar to a Jr. BB?

No nevre hit, I just remember being slapped down by admin for saying something similar! Rules are rules!

I was simply voicing an opinion, which last I checked, was fine, as long as it was within the boundaries of the forum rules. But by all means, if you or anyone else feels that my post in question was out of line, hit the RTM. Just because I'm an Admin here, doesn't make me exempt from the rules.

 

[NPTKD]

You probably don't want to hear this, but in my opinion, DEFINITELY. None of the technical skills we work to develop mean anything if in the heat of battle we take a hard shot and fall to pieces. Toughness is a required attribute for fighters. I suppose you can be a martial artist without being a fighter, but in my case I prefer to be both for myself personally and also for my students.

I respect that and I think that is what all instructors want, but these days not everyone is going to (at a young age) be able to handle that kind of training. So lets say some 6yr old trains for 10 years. He learns the basics really good and is preatty good at sparring. Now he is 16yrs old. His training then really picks up. Starts sparring with the adults and is doing really well, he is a good black belt. At 6,7,8 & 9yrs he really wasn't every good but he stuck with it. my point is without some type of for a lack of better term " reward" for his years of training, he probably would have not stayed training to become the person he is a 16yrs.

 

[miguksaram]

That's the problem, and the cause is the situation under discussion right now.It isn't about what our acievements mean to "us", it's the decline in public perception that hurts us, they see the absolute, borderline sacreligious joke that mainstream MA has become and, being the general public without discerning eyes, believe it to be all we have.

If you are going to go off public perception, they see MMA as more mainstream since that has higher tv coverage. Where as the "Kiddy" black belts seem to hurt the image so does the bloody beat downs of MMA that they see on TV.

I am finding more and more that the parents who come into the school are actually researching the schools prior. The internet has helped, and yes hindered, a lot. They come in with actual questions outside of price.

 

[dancingalone]

I respect that and I think that is what all instructors want, but these days not everyone is going to (at a young age) be able to handle that kind of training. So lets say some 6yr old trains for 10 years. He learns the basics really good and is preatty good at sparring. Now he is 16yrs old. His training then really picks up. Starts sparring with the adults and is doing really well, he is a good black belt. At 6,7,8 & 9yrs he really wasn't every good but he stuck with it. I point is without some type of for a lake of better term " reward" for his years of training, he probably would have not stayed training to become the person he is a 16yrs.

I understand your perspective. It's just one I avoid entirely by teaching in a 'semi-closed door' setting. I'm selective about whom I teach and I only have 1 minor, a 16-year old, in my classes. Of course, I make no effort to earn my living through this. The reward I get is a small cadre of athletic training partners/students for myself, to push me and to make me improve myself as a martial artist.

Back to the original topic: I don't like the general public thinking my black belt is the same one that their twelve year old got from attending classes for 2 years at the local strip mall dojang. It's the same as the degree analogy several of you brought up. I hold a BBA and a BS from a well-regarded public university in the US. I also busted my butt in school to graduate with a high gpa with honors. For job seeking purposes since I am now years out of school, only the fact that I hold a degree matters for the resume screeners in human resources, and they might hold me roughly equivalent to someone else who did the bare minimum and graduated with a 2.5 GPA. But guess what? I know the difference.

 

[Steve]

Your BJJ reference is way off. As a Purple belt with over 6 years in the art I can tell you that the standards have not slipped. Maybe in some schools that are run by blue belts who wear black belts for "Business" reasons that is the case...but no one stays there very long. If you train for the required 10 years and are proficient then your black belt in BJJ can never be devalued.
As to the TKD reference....well...we have all seen our fair share of bad Black belts both child and adult. If they suck and you promoted them then yes, you do suck and you are bringing yourself down. If they are not from your school then it has nothing to do with you. Get over it.

Okay I want to get back to this. Other people have touched on what I was trying to get at, as well.

It's specifically because I don't want the standards in BJJ to slip that I'm concerned about who holds what rank, even if they aren't training at my school. Getting back to the college degree analogy, BJJ used to be taught on what amounts to one campus. Now, it's being taught worldwide. Where there used to be, maybe, 20 schools, there are now thousands. Where the focus used to be self defense, now, often, the focus is competition. And making money has always been a big part of it. Helio Gracie was a visionary, but he was also all about self promotion.

I am addicted to jiu jitsu and think it's, bar none, the best MA for me. But that's no reason to have blinders on about what it is or what it might become if we don't keep an eye on things. In fact, I would argue that painting a rosy picture of where BJJ is now and where it's headed will only speed it on its way.

This is a particularly interesting topic now since Rio was announced as the 2016 site of the Olympics and BJJ has as good a chance as anything to be chosen as a demonstration sport. We've seen the damage that the Olympics have done to Judo and to TKD relevant to this very thread.

 

[NPTKD]

Until people (instructor) have to follow some kind of guide lines, there are always going to be this problem. I do the poom certificate, but not the belt. Students in my school and that are Kukkiwon know that it is poom rank, but anyone outside wouldn't. I have given a alot of thought in changing it back to the red & black poom belt. It's more traditional anyway.

 

[miguksaram]

If I look at TKD and see a bunch of kids running around who arent old enough to drive yet they're wearing 3rd degree Black Belts, frankly I think its a friggin joke, but I'm left with the impression that all TKD dojos are a joke, that they're mcdojos, and from what I've seen, many are. For those that are in TKD that dont fall into that category, I for one, would be ashamed of what the others are doing.

Why should I be ashamed? Granted I'm not proud of what they are doing, but I'm not ashamed either...I fall under the I really don't give a crap about them. I did not get my rank from them, so why should I care?

I have had people come up and say the usual "My 10 year old son/daughter is a 2nd dan at XYZ school, they really enjoy it there." I simply tell them I'm glad they enjoy it and to feel free to stop by and work out with us for fun sometime.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Please help me understand this concept as I have heard it so many times and just don't get it. It goes like this... I don't like kids with black belts because it devaules what I have achieved....OR....I don't like people who have only taken a 12 minute test to get their black belt because it undermines all that I worked for....OR....my black belt accomplishment is far greater than the black belt from XYZ school because I had to test 10 hours to get it and they only test an hour.

People if you are really that insecure about the value of your black belt because of what others have done (or not done) to earn theirs...then by all means take it off and go back to white belt and for the love of whatever you hold sacred try to get more self-esteem out of your lessons this time around. So what if some six year old has a black belt...how does that affect what you learned or how you train? Big deal if Big John took a 60 hour test for his black belt and you took a 20 minute test, what more did he get out of his that you didn't get out of yours?

If there is actual logical explaination please tell me and help me understand all the bitching I keep hearing about this.

I will start off by saying that whether or not eight year olds have black belts does not reflect at all on my having one. It does reflect on their school and their instructors. Even if an eight year old poom student were given a black belt at the same school that I train in, it does not affect me. I know that it is a poom rank and that he or she is in the childrens' class. That student having the belt does not change my ability or accomlishment.

As to the logical explanation, it is more a question of perceived fairness. 'I worked very hard, trained daily and did so for several years under a merciless hard core master to earn my black belt, and that jerk down the street gives them to eight year olds because they are cute' pretty much sums it up.

As for the kiddie belts devaluing adult BB's, the issue is that the general public sees the many kiddie belts and now associates the adult BB's into the same category.

I do not agree that it devalues the adult's BB, but I do understand the logic, and there is a degree of truth to it. Where it falls short is that the general public has no clue what is involved in a BB test and assumes that the kids must all be a mini-Chuck Norris whose chin-fists simply have not developed.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why should I be ashamed? Granted I'm not proud of what they are doing, but I'm not ashamed either...I fall under the I really don't give a crap about them. I did not get my rank from them, so why should I care?

I have had people come up and say the usual "My 10 year old son/daughter is a 2nd dan at XYZ school, they really enjoy it there." I simply tell them I'm glad they enjoy it and to feel free to stop by and work out with us for fun sometime.

I agree with you, though I do care to an extent, mainly because in the long run, it is hurting the industry.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Why should I be ashamed? Granted I'm not proud of what they are doing, but I'm not ashamed either...I fall under the I really don't give a crap about them. I did not get my rank from them, so why should I care?

Would you care if tomorrow a news story appeared where a child black belt was kidnapped and slain by some monster? Perhaps negative attention then becomes focused on the martial arts industry with resulting legislation and regulation. Obviously, I pose an extreme example, but I think the initial scenario could very well happen today. It would be very sad if some child came into harm's way and all of his 'training' availed him not. It would be even sadder if he had an unrealistic idea of his effectiveness from his inflated rank and this helped lead him to his demise.

Like or it not, the black belt rank puts into the public's mind that its wearer can hold his own in a fight. And, I've never seen a child black belt yet who didn't think that his belt was the real thing.

 

[miguksaram]

Would you care if tomorrow a news story appeared where a child black belt was kidnapped and slain by some monster? Perhaps negative attention then becomes focused on the martial arts industry with resulting legislation and regulation. Obviously, I pose an extreme example, but I think the initial scenario could very well happen today. It would be very sad if some child came into harm's way and all of his 'training' availed him not. It would be even sadder if he had an unrealistic idea of his effectiveness from his inflated rank and this helped lead him to his demise.

Like or it not, the black belt rank puts into the public's mind that its wearer can hold his own in a fight. And, I've never seen a child black belt yet who didn't think that his belt was the real thing.

I would care about the child more than the fact he was a BB. If negatvie press was to play I don't think it would come down on the industry as a whole so much as the school he went to.

It is very sad when adults come into harms way and their training fails them as well. Is it the school's fault, style's fault, or the student's fault? A lot of different factor at play.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Would you care if tomorrow a news story appeared where a child black belt was kidnapped and slain by some monster? Perhaps negative attention then becomes focused on the martial arts industry with resulting legislation and regulation. Obviously, I pose an extreme example, but I think the initial scenario could very well happen today. It would be very sad if some child came into harm's way and all of his 'training' availed him not. It would be even sadder if he had an unrealistic idea of his effectiveness from his inflated rank and this helped lead him to his demise.

I do not see that scenario coming to pass. You may recall a thread that linked to a news story about a special forces soldier being beaten to death in a bar in a fight with some guy over a Jimmy Buffet song. This is very sad, but being special forces means that you know how to fight, not that you are invincible. Likewise, a blackbelt is supposed to know how to fight in a particular style. Nothing more.

Like or it not, the black belt rank puts into the public's mind that its wearer can hold his own in a fight.

Define holding one's own. I can hold my own in a fight with most people, but ultimately, I can still be beaten.

And, I've never seen a child black belt yet who didn't think that his belt was the real thing.

Define real thing. If the kid has learned all of the curriculum, can perform his or her technique with power and snap, and has obviously been taught well, but happens to be only twelve, is his or her belt somehow not the real thing?

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

It is very sad when adults come into harms way and their training fails them as well. Is it the school's fault, style's fault, or the student's fault? A lot of different factor at play.

Yes, and even you try to solve any problem you start by eliminating the variables you can until you find the original cause or a solution that will remedy it. My modest proposal is to make no new black belt, child or not, unless he has useful, utilizable skills.

You see, miguksaram, for many of us, it's not necessarily just about the embarrassment of seeing our rank watered down by shady instructors. It's also about maintaining the honor, respect, and integrity of the dan rank itself. Two different faces of the same coin, I suppose. Handing out black belts like candy cheapens the rank for the rest of us who earned the rank honorably.