Rant: Placing value in yourself based on others' accomplishments
- Thread starter miguksaram
- Start date
After some of your previous posts, this kind of makes them look disingenuous. There are things in the industry that I cannot do anything about, but I am up front about them being bad for the industry and reflecting poorly on the art. And I have kids in taekwondo, one of whom started at eight (TSD at that time). Neither of them received black belts at eight, so perhaps I do not feel any pressure to defend a policy.
Nobody has questioned that your kids are very skilled for their age. They questioned whether or not your kids at the ages they are should be wearing black belts with three stripes on them. There is a difference.
Your school put the belts on them, your school has seen them train. What is done there is not my call to make. I do still question the logic of an instructor testing a child for third poom at the age of twelve and then putting a black belt with three stripes on them.
But in no way does that alter your childrens' abilities. I have no reason to believe that your kids are unskilled; I take you at face value. I am not one who requires video, as you have nothing to prove to me. But as I stated in my responses to your thread, this practice is questionable at best. And you seem to be confirming that in the above post.
Daniel
Well, thats a good thing, and something that I always suggest people do as well.
So, I'm safe to assume that you don't think kids should be black belts either?
You're lucky.
Of course, another classic that has been asked of me, when I am asked what I train in, tell them Kenpo, and they ask, "Is that like TKD?" My reply.....Ummmm...No, its not like TKD.Help me understand this....Poom=a rank that is a step below black, such as a Jr. BB? Well, be it as it may, I still think thats 9yrs too soon, but thats just my opinion. I do find it interesting that competition is placed so high. I mean, because he seems to fight well, the Master moved him to black?????
What does your son think about that? I ask because it seems he moved so quick, and then he's now at a standstill...until he's 15? Wouldn't it make more sense if he had just waited in the first place, for the black belt rank?
So, if thats the case, how does that look to someone who sees this high rank? What I mean by that is....he's wearing the rank that is typical of someone who is an adult, but doesnt have a full understanding.
So is he ok with the fact that it seems that he was fast-tracked and now comes to a slow down? If he does wait, as you said, until he'd 15 for his 3rd, then he's going to have to wait another 6yrs for 4th. Wouldn't it make more sense to just not promote kids so young, and have them wait until they're older?
Thank you for your reply.
NPTKD
Brown Belt
Well......... It all makes sense now.....jumping, skipping , hopping! Question, what are your feelings on lets say this person kid was skipped dan like you? I mean you can't argue with time in rank. Isn't this really what this come down to. no matter what your age.... I have seen alot of people who should be higher rank just base on thier abilities, but as so many have said, there more to it then that! I have 1st,2nd dans that are great instructors,but I would never concider a skip for them based on that. And as far as owning your own school, I think a buisness lic. cost $14.95 where I live......How many times have you heard people say" I wish I knew then , what I know now". Time in rank gives you the ability to understand the MA you study clearer. I think that my be why it probably isn't a good idea for lets say a 1st Dan to open his or her own school!
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NPTKD
Brown Belt
Good for him! Sounds like at least someone is following some kind of guide lines
Time and Age Limits Poom/DanMinimum Time Required for PromotionAge Limits for PromotionStart from DanStart from Poom1st PoomN AN ALess than 15 Years Old1st to 2nd Pom1 yearN A 15 ?2nd to 3rd Poom 2 year N A 15 ? 3rd to 4th Poom 3 year N A 18 ? 1st DanN A 15years and above N A 1st to 2nd Dan1 year 16years and above 15years and above 2nd to 3rd Dan2 year18years and above 15years and above 3rd to 4th Dan 3 year21years and above 18years and above 4th to 5th Dan4 year 25years and above 22years and above 5th to 6th Dan 5 year 30years and above 30years and above 6th to 7th Dan 6 year36years and above 36years and above 7th to 8th Dan 8 year 44years and above 44years and above 8th to 9th Dan 9 year53years and above 53years and above 9th to 10th DanN A 60years and above 60years and above
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NPTKD
Brown Belt
And lastly..... Isn't this statement above how you got your skip, the same as the name of this thread! "Rant: Placing value in yourself based on others' accomplishments":supcool:
Just to clarify something about the poom:
While the Kukkiwon may be the Korean national administrative body for the art of taekwondo, they are eyeball deep in the sport of taekwondo.
The whole idea of the poom is to provide a rank that designates that the child is more advanced than a first keup and it allows that child to compete against other such children.
Carol Kaur made the observation that the belt system was originally for sport anyway and that it should be used for that. To a certain extent, I agree. The only disconnect in that is that taekwondo is essentially morphed Shotokan, and belts were not used in that fashion at the time taekwondo was being formed.
To a great extent, however, the belts are being used primarilly to bracket competitors. Certainly, that is the only use that belts have in the WTF. They determine who you fight and what poomsae you are allowed to use in competition.
So for this reason, the rank of first, second, and even third poom does not bother me with a twelve year old.
What bothers me is that firstly, a poom automatically converts to a dan with the submission of the appropriate paperwork on the part of the student's GM. If I am not mistaken, all pooms convert, so for example, Gorilla's twelve year old son could test for third poom, never test again and be ranked third dan at fifteen. And yes, I consider fifteen to be too young for a third dan.
The other issue is that there is a definite blurring between the poom and the dan. This bluring becomes greater when black belts are put onto poom grade students. Partly due to the automatic conversion with no requirement for the student to take an adult test, and partly because the only reasons for the poom in the first place are to keep kids sticking around past blackbelt and to facilitate competition brackets.
In all fairness to Gorilla's kids, they are doing the very thing that the poom was designed for. It is neither his fault, nor that of his kids that the system is set up as it is with regards to conversion and that their instructor puts a black belt with multiple stripes on poom grade students. His kids are showing up and working hard.
The fix is fairly easy in my opinion. A simple three step process:
1. Have poom 1-4, with 4 being for age twelve to fourteen.
2. Require poom grade students to wear a poom belt.
3. Any fifteen year old may test for first dan, but the 4th poom student should receive a test that is directed towards the non-competition related items. By this point, he or she has already proven that they know their forms and can spar within the system, have plenty of endurance, and likely can break pretty darn well. So make their test a more technical/knowledge based test and focus on SD rather than competition sparring in the physical section. The only competition related material shoudl be to have the student spar an adult BB. Edit: From attaining first dan at fifteen, the normal time period between dans would be enforced. Thus the student would be eligible to tesf for second dan at sixteen, third at eighteen, and fourth at twenty one, assuming that the student continues to train and is tested in that timeframe.
This way, they still have a competition bracket that keeps competition fair but the integrity of the dan rank and black belt is maintained.
Daniel
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NPTKD
Brown Belt
Your right on the money. I don't like the poom and dan convertion ether. It really do not make sense. I wish I had done the poom belt and poom uniform! Well maybe my next school,right.
The World Taekwondo Federation regulates the sport of taekwondo. WTF taekwondo is an olympic event.
Absolutely, money is a major factor. I am not cynical enought to say that it is the only factor, but is a major one. National prestige is another.
Daniel
Sounds like our hapkido class. Lots of ukemi. If you cannot do the ukemi, then you should not go past green belt for your own safety.
We do this one in our hapkido class. Fun throw! We do not learn it until first Keup.
Daniel
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Thumbs up. I'll be honest and admit I crib much of this material from my wife who is an aikido instructor. She's tough on me. It took about 12 years for me to make shodan under her.
We're already fighting over our son over whose student he will be.
Please go back and read my posts I have never said that kids under 10 deserve a black belt I posed the question and everyone assumed that I supported it because my kids are of that rank. I would be in favor of making them all red belts if that was the highest rank that could be achieved.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
This post I agree with 100%. It is what I have been looking for an unbiased well thought out rational way of looking at competition and youth black belts.
Thank you very much I believe that this is the best post that I have seen on this subject. Now if we could just get it implemented.
Thank you Daniel, your posts are way better than some which have called be a fool, and suggested that our master should be slapped. I really appreciate your post. I cannot say enough your post was great!!!
Thank you for clarifying.
Just for some clarification on my end, it was more that you seemed to be defending the policy in previous posts.
You posted a very detailed description of your son's test and training regimen, so while you did not come out and make the blanket statement that ten and younger kids deserve a black belt, you did make the case that your son does.
And by that school's standards, I am sure that your son is deserving. I said on the other thread that a black belt is largely meaningful only within the school of issuance, regardless of the age of the holder. Given your school's focus on competition (at least from what you have described), they are using the belt system for kids primarilly in that context.
Another school will have a different focus and thus different criteria.
I guess what I see, however, is that every parent who's child has a black belt feels that it is perfectly reasonable for them to have it. Every parent posts detailed descriptions of how challenging the test is, and how they know that their kid worked very hard.
To be fair, I think that on a forum such as this one, you get a skewed crossection. Most parents do not post on an MA forum, and I do think that those who do post and contribute regularly have kids who are really, really into whatever martial art it is that they are involved with, and the parent in question is really, really supportive of their child (such as yourself, ATC, Mangoman, and TKDFather).
The average parent who uses the school as daycare and who's kid goes to class once or twice a week, does not practice much or at all between class, does not compete seriously, and looks like the typical kid trying to do a form, is not the parent that typically contributes. I do think that those parents may post here once or twice to find a dojo, and once they find one, they generally do not stick around.
The problem that you run into is that as soon as the words school-age and blackbelt are put together, most of the members immediately think, "belt factory/McDojo," while that may not necesarilly be the case.
Daniel
ATC
Senior Master
Don't forget saftey. I am sure you would not want a white belt going up againt a black belt. You have to have some type of structure.
Only if the black belt knows that the other is a white belt. If the black belt assumes the other has the same experience as him/her than all bets are off.
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