Questions regarding MA-80

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[bobquinn]

I agree, Let's keep it clean. One question for many! The Professor gave us the saying,"art within your art". Why are we piddling in the wind when we should , just do our thing and let nature take it's course.
We all have a place and a place has us all. Lighten up!
I asked Dan one time"Dan what did I do to that guy? His reply was Not what I did what that guy said!, HMMM.


Bob Quinn

 

[The Last Legionary]

Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.

I'm afraid I don't know who you are referring to. Care to enlighten me?

Errrr,

Maybe it's time to split this off this portion of the discussion to "Questions regarding T.H." or something.

T.H. and MA-80 are two separate topics.

Fine with me.

 

[Morgan]

Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.

As to Dan, he's ok. Congratulations.

Mr. Game,

I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion. Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:

01-31-2003, 10:19 PM
Jeff Leader
Posts: n/a
Casino Cash: $



Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.

​

On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro
​

06-07-2005, 07:18 PM
arnisador

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WMAA: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman.

​

The Board of Advisors of the World Modern Arnis Alliance is pleased to announce the promotion of Datu Timothy J. Hartman to the rank of Lakan Siyam, 9th degree black belt.

The promotion was made on 5 June 2005 in West Seneca, NY. The promotion not only recognizes Datu Hartman's technical skill and his leadership role in Modern Arnis; it also places him at the apex of the rank chain in the WMAA, as befits the Technical Director and President of the organization. This will allow him to promote other WMAA members, such as those currently holding the rank of 5th degree black belt, to appropriate ranks within the WMAA in the future.

The Board wishes to emphasize the fact that Datu Hartman's Lakan Siyam rank refers to his rank within the WMAA. His rank from Prof. Presas is Lakan Anim, 6th degree black belt. The Board also wishes to reiterate that it is the position of the WMAA that all Modern Arnis Datus are equal in status. This numerical rank is within this organization, internal to the WMAA, and does not imply that Datu Hartman is ranked either above or below any other Datu with higher or lower numerical rank.

The Board congratulates Datu Hartman on his achievements.

/s/ Jeffery J. Leader
Jeffery J. Leader
Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
On Behalf of the Board of Advisors: Chad Dulin, Paul Janulis, Jeff Leader, Rick Manglinong, Steve Scott, Sal Todaro
​

Morgan

 

[The Game]

Mr. Game,

I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion. Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:

01-31-2003, 10:19 PM
Jeff Leader
Posts: n/a
Casino Cash: $



Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.

​

On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro


06-07-2005, 07:18 PM
arnisador

Martial Talk
Sr. Grandmaster​

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terre Haute, IN
Posts: 27,581
Casino Cash: $14629
Thanks: 177
Thanked 77 Times in 54 Posts

Founding Member
20,000 Post Club
Rep Power: 34


WMAA: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman.

​

The Board of Advisors of the World Modern Arnis Alliance is pleased to announce the promotion of Datu Timothy J. Hartman to the rank of Lakan Siyam, 9th degree black belt.

The promotion was made on 5 June 2005 in West Seneca, NY. The promotion not only recognizes Datu Hartman's technical skill and his leadership role in Modern Arnis; it also places him at the apex of the rank chain in the WMAA, as befits the Technical Director and President of the organization. This will allow him to promote other WMAA members, such as those currently holding the rank of 5th degree black belt, to appropriate ranks within the WMAA in the future.

The Board wishes to emphasize the fact that Datu Hartman's Lakan Siyam rank refers to his rank within the WMAA. His rank from Prof. Presas is Lakan Anim, 6th degree black belt. The Board also wishes to reiterate that it is the position of the WMAA that all Modern Arnis Datus are equal in status. This numerical rank is within this organization, internal to the WMAA, and does not imply that Datu Hartman is ranked either above or below any other Datu with higher or lower numerical rank.

The Board congratulates Datu Hartman on his achievements.

/s/ Jeffery J. Leader
Jeffery J. Leader
Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
On Behalf of the Board of Advisors: Chad Dulin, Paul Janulis, Jeff Leader, Rick Manglinong, Steve Scott, Sal Todaro
​

Morgan

What's your point Morgan?
Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession.

This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!

Q- Who promoted Tim Hartman to 9th Degree? A- The World Modern Arnis Alliance Board of Directors. (also referred to as Advisory Board)

Q- Aren't these his juniors in the arts? A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members hold rank in Modern Arnis issued by Remy Presas, some of them hold rank in other FMA systems, some hold rank in other non-FMA systems. Some hold rank under the WMAA. Some have been training longer, and some shorter.

Q- Aren't these his students?A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.

At the time, the little toadies insisted that path was wrong, and that Hartman should have gone to the PI for it to be legit. So he does, and he is recognized by Remy's own brother, and now it's a whine about how that too was wrong. Like any of them are anywhere near the knowledge or skill of the FMA and Modern Arnis like Remy and Ernesto. What makes their so called judgement better than that of recognized legit FMA Grandmasters? Of course, for a group that goes on so about rank and tradition, they never mention that not a single one of them made it past second with Remy, and I doubt that any have legitimately tested in years.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Well, until Tim stops ducking and puts up an answer, my opinion and comments stand. Thread should probably be split since the Hartman promotions really don't have anything to do with Dan-o's promotion.


Getting back to Dan-o, I have a few other questions.
How many MA80 blackbelts are there?
How many blackbelts have you produced?
How many schools teach MA80?
How many seminars do you do each year, roughly, and where?
What do you like on your pizza?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The WMAA training camp starts tomorrow and runs thew the weekend. When it is over I'll be more than happy to address LL's questions about the Presas family endorsement (Kombatan promotion to 9th and GM) I received in April of 2007. I wont be addressing Barber's, I mean Morgan's posts about the 9th degree WMAA promotion. It has been discussed way more than needed. Everyone has said their peace on the matter and are entitled to their own opinions.

Hope to see some of you at the camp this weekend!

 

[arnisador]

Have a good camp!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Getting back to Dan-o, I have a few other questions.
1.How many MA80 blackbelts are there?
2.How many blackbelts have you produced?
3.How many schools teach MA80?
4.How many seminars do you do each year, roughly, and where?
5.What do you like on your pizza?

1. Myself, Tom Corsin, Justin Mangum, Kevin Warden, Toma Rosenzwieg, Darren Davies, Barry McConnell & Don Kerstetter. Bram Frank is also recognized within MA-80.
2. Overall, roughly 50 or so.
3. Three.
4. Roughly 12 or so. Usually the USA although last year I taguth in the UK and Germany and the previous year I taught in the Philippines and UK.
5. Sausage, beef, pineapple, pepperoni, cheese and there can't be too much garlic.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Morgan]

What's your point Morgan?
Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession.

This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!


At the time, the little toadies insisted that path was wrong, and that Hartman should have gone to the PI for it to be legit. So he does, and he is recognized by Remy's own brother, and now it's a whine about how that too was wrong. Like any of them are anywhere near the knowledge or skill of the FMA and Modern Arnis like Remy and Ernesto. What makes their so called judgement better than that of recognized legit FMA Grandmasters? Of course, for a group that goes on so about rank and tradition, they never mention that not a single one of them made it past second with Remy, and I doubt that any have legitimately tested in years.

My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman. Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

Morgan

 

[The Game]

My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman. Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

Morgan

You don't read too good do ya boy?
Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.

Q- Aren't these his students?
A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.

In any event, you're a few years too late for that debate. *** I said, only a couple of wannabe hacks in WNY really care about that. They're too busy spiting on GM Presas now, which shows more of their true character.

Speaking of which, how do you know who has what relations with who?

Of course, we can define "student" as "someone who learned something from someone else", but that would make my own list so large it would make even my head spin. We can also say that only someones real teacher should promote them, but that would invalidate so many of these "promotions by rank boards" that go on these days, now wouldn't it?

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Chew on that for a few.

 

[Archangel M]

More FMA political combat? You guys are close to tieing Ninjutsu.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Hi Game,

Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be his junior in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such.

As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head.

He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way and the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.

Morgan,

Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto is best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.

I knew my announcement would light up the switchboard. How's that for showing my age?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[bobquinn]

Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's seems to be some whining from the underage. I applaud all that have kept the flame of contraversy alive. I've run stuff with all the freindly faces spoken about with regard to rank and in no doubt they all have game! Bingo.

B Quinn

 

[arnisador]

The funny thing is...all this about rank, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack skill?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's

Bobby,

I'd LOVE for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...

The funny thing is...all this about rank, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack skill?

Ain't nobody said nuttin yet.

Yours,
Moi

 

[The Game]

More FMA political combat? You guys are close to tieing Ninjutsu.

FMA politics is a beast all it's own. Has something to do with most of us carry and most of us are a bit nuts from too many headshots.
:lol:

Hi Game,

Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be his junior in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such.

So you gave each other rank in each others respective systems.

As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head.

But, what numerical ranks does he hold in all of those? Those numbers seem to be very important to a couple of monkeys I know of.

He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way and the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.

So he is a "senior" on this particular council, but a peer in the arts based on comparable time training and rankings?

Bobby,

I'd LOVE for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...

Ain't nobody said nuttin yet.

Yours,
Moi

Richard Harder. You can call me Dick. Half my rep points do. :lol:
I'm a Gemini. My favorite colors are black and blue, and I wear them often. I drive American, and my pickup has a gun rack. Last book I read was Ric Flairs bio, Last movie I watched isn't allowed here, and the last magazine I read had glossy pages and I've heard rumors it has articles but I ain't done found them yet. I love the smell of burning rattan and burnt gunpowder. I train various FMA, have a small private club in NY, and have been at classes involving quite a few names in the arts, including those refered to here. My favorite drink is cold, frothy and often, and my favorite food is anything you can put tobasco on, which so far is everything.

Now, lets see the other stick smokers ball up and ID.

 

[bobquinn]

Hey Dick,
BQ here we have alot of likes other then the american made thought. Odd training in asian arts! I admire your willingness to hit the mat! Only better colors then Black and Blue are the Red,White & Blue! Hartman,Anderson & Frank are the real deal. Been there, done that. Hey your post makes for, You know your a red neck!

Robert Quinn

 

[Morgan]

You don't read too good do ya boy?
Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.



In any event, you're a few years too late for that debate. *** I said, only a couple of wannabe hacks in WNY really care about that. They're too busy spiting on GM Presas now, which shows more of their true character.

Speaking of which, how do you know who has what relations with who?

Of course, we can define "student" as "someone who learned something from someone else", but that would make my own list so large it would make even my head spin. We can also say that only someones real teacher should promote them, but that would invalidate so many of these "promotions by rank boards" that go on these days, now wouldn't it?

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Chew on that for a few.

Thanks for your reply and the yes/no answer. There's no need to
fine tune the "student" defintion. It was neither helpful nor harmful.
Your statements are appriciated.

Morgan

 

[Morgan]

Morgan,

Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto is best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.

I knew my announcement would light up the switchboard. How's that for showing my age?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dear SM Anderson,

I wrote the following in a recent post:

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.

With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion. Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point. Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation.

Morgan