Questions regarding MA-80

[The Last Legionary]

Speaking of Bram Frank, is this the same person who on at least one occasion brought a live blade onto the training floor and carved up his assistant? I question the judgement of anyone who would do such a thing.

I'm also reserving my comments until Tim recovers from his camp this past weekend and posts his reply to my questions.

I will say this. If he was promoted by students from his school I'd consider that an invalid promotion, to say the least.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Dear SM Anderson,

I wrote the following in a recent post:

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.

With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion. Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point. Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation.

Morgan

Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior.

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?

 

[bobquinn]

Thank you Mr. Hubbard,

Better have never been spoken.

Bob Q

 

[Dan Anderson]

Oh my God! This is turning into a civil discussion. Yikes!

Hi Richard,
Glad to meet you.
Quote:
So you gave each other rank in each others respective systems.
No rank per se but recognition. Neither of us have a numerical rank with the other.
Quote:
But, what numerical ranks does he hold in all of those? Those numbers seem to be very important to a couple of monkeys I know of.
No data potata. You’d have to ask him. Hung Gar and Wing Chun don’t have belts to my knowledge.
Quote:
So he is a "senior" on this particular council, but a peer in the arts based on comparable time training and rankings?
Yes.


Quote:
Richard Harder. You can call me Dick. Half my rep points do.
I'm a Gemini. My favorite colors are black and blue, and I wear them often. I drive American, and my pickup has a gun rack. Last book I read was Ric Flairs bio, Last movie I watched isn't allowed here, and the last magazine I read had glossy pages and I've heard rumors it has articles but I ain't done found them yet. I love the smell of burning rattan and burnt gunpowder. I train various FMA, have a small private club in NY, and have been at classes involving quite a few names in the arts, including those refered to here. My favorite drink is cold, frothy and often, and my favorite food is anything you can put tobasco on, which so far is everything.

Now, lets see the other stick smokers ball up and ID.

Okay guys and dolls, pony up!

Dear SM Anderson,
Hi Morgan,

I wrote the following in a recent post:

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.

Is cool.

With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion. Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point. Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation.

Morgan

Quote:
Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior.

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?

Hey Dick,
It was a test to be inducted onto the Grand Masters council. The first statement out of the council is “We don’t promote anyone to Grand Master.” It is also right up there on the website. As to where the “promotee” (far better than "testee" :ultracool) was in the student role, it was more the “promotee” was in the junior role.

Hey Bob,
Haven’t heard from you for a long time.
Quote:
Regarding Dan's promotion:
Dan, I disagree with the idea of these "Soke" boards. Sorry, bit of a purist at heart here, and they ain't real "sokes" any more than I'm a large busted Swedish woman named Inga. But, they are better at evaluating someone's martial skill than I, by a long shot. So, while I disagree with the title usage, if they say you're the goods, then hey, congrats and pats on the back and all that good stuff. Personally, I don't think you, or anyone needs the paper as your real rank shows on the floor, and in the other works you do spreading the arts to new generations of students. Dan puts out a bunch of books and videos and is out there like him or not. Most of his detractors hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him so I consider their comments worthless.

Thanks for the props, Bob. Agreements and disagreements are in the minds of the beholders and I have no problem with anyone’s disagreement. Is cool.




Quote:
A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.

Morgan
Morgan,

"Need?" Wild Bill (on another forum) used to use that word all the time. I suppose I could just proclaim myself the 8th wonder of the world…hmmm…I like that. I, too, am a bit old-fashioned in that rather than proclaiming myself a martial arts mastermind (I like that, too. I think I’m onto something.) I would rather have the acknowledgement from seniors. Being inducted onto the Grand Masters Council is that kind of acknowledgement. So, I suppose the $64,000 question (that no one is asking so I’ll ask it myself and beat you all to it) is do I put GM in front of my name when I now sign things, put out products, and the like. Possibly…probably…most likely although I haven’t yet. My students have asked me that question and the answer is to keep calling me Professor. Keep tuned to this station for film at 11:00.

Quote:
From reading some posts here, it seems that the concerns or questions are...why would you want to promote yourself? Why would you want to take a title if you didn't earn it? Why would you test for rank IFO a group that may not have people on the board that train in the art you're testing for?

So, sure, someone could promote themselves, test in front of a soke board or anything else...but, as I said in another post...its that person that has to live with it. Someone could walk around with the title Ultimate Supreme GM of the World...I don't care. That does not impress me. I've listed what I look for in other posts, so I'm not going to post it again here.

Hi Mike,

Succinctly stated. This whole event and its ramifications is something I will live with, as I have with my other decisions in life. Ultimate Supreme GM of the World… Damn! That I like!

To All,

I love the discussion and as you can see, I am not taking myself so seriously regarding this that offense is taken. As Mike has said, it is the person who makes the decision, lives with not only the decision but with the ramifications of it and in the end, himself. I am doing fine with it and I’m glad to get some excitement going on this forum. It’s been a little stale, lately. All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

Just a thought on the being promoted by your students thing. Aren't most of the past Grandmasters, Tuhons, etc.. in those roles because of their students learning from them and not because someone gave them a fancy paper? That and the facts that their peers recognized them as bad *** fighters? Seems to me that peers and students can do that kind of thing. Personally I've trained with a few Masters and Grandmasters of various arts in my time. Most of them have deserved the title and I can think of at least 2 that don't. I don't tell others not to train with them, but most people that do find out real quick that they're not the real deal.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just a thought on the being promoted by your students thing. Aren't most of the past Grandmasters, Tuhons, etc.. in those roles because of their students learning from them and not because someone gave them a fancy paper? That and the facts that their peers recognized them as bad *** fighters? Seems to me that peers and students can do that kind of thing. Personally I've trained with a few Masters and Grandmasters of various arts in my time. Most of them have deserved the title and I can think of at least 2 that don't. I don't tell others not to train with them, but most people that do find out real quick that they're not the real deal.

So, let us say some fighters recognize someone as having better skill in fighting or in teaching and they cal him a Master, and yet this person who some have called master recognizes someone else as having a better skill set them them and they call them a grandmaster. To me here it is the students promoting the instructors.

If one has to have a Grandmaster to promote the next grandmaster then the whole journey would be linear and there would be very few at all if any, given those that dies before naming someone.

No system is perfect. All systems can be abused.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

So, let us say some fighters recognize someone as having better skill in fighting or in teaching and they cal him a Master, and yet this person who some have called master recognizes someone else as having a better skill set them them and they call them a grandmaster. To me here it is the students promoting the instructors.

If one has to have a Grandmaster to promote the next grandmaster then the whole journey would be linear and there would be very few at all if any, given those that dies before naming someone.

No system is perfect. All systems can be abused.

Yep, I think that was pretty much my point when I started typing. I kinda' went off on a tangent. Good thing Rich is around to say what I ment to say in a bit clearer terminology. THANKS! :highfive:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi All,

This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated. I am reprinting it here without his permission.

And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows
the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
game plan. Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
practices should be pure is thin morality.

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

Damn. Wish I had said that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Archangel M]

Alright. Ive been lurking on this thread because its pretty long and pretty heated, making for some interesting reading. To add my 2 cents, I think many people (myself included), are unclear as to what "Grandmaster" means. Wikipedia has this page regarding Grandmasters. How does it fare regarding general consensus?

What is a Grandmaster?
What does the title endow the holder with?

 

[The Game]

Hi All,

This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated. I am reprinting it here without his permission.

And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows
the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
game plan. Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
practices should be pure is thin morality.

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

Damn. Wish I had said that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Paul Martin. Isn't he one of the people who were banned from here a while back for excessive **** stirring? *Checks Notes* Yup. Has an obsessive dislike of Hartman? *checks Notes* Yup. Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.

Tells me all I need to know about Mr. Martin's integrity, ethics, and all that jazz.

Now, lets decode his little "morality play".

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
game plan. Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
practices should be pure is thin morality.

For those who don't know, Hartman is a member of NAPMA (says so on his website.)
NAPMA has materials referring to a Little Dragons program, which Hartman offers. (says so on his website)
That's the little crack about "McDojo franchise game plan"
He (Hartman) also has a sign that says "Karate" over his school. (See picture of school on his website).
That's the Karate crack.

So that middle paragraph is typical "Barberite" crap, where it's usually little more than "lets be sneaky and take shots at the only successful FMA school in WNY" since we can't hack it ourselves and we're jealous buttholes.

As to the comments here:

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

They sure do take a lot of shots at people on this site, it's staff, it's owner, and so on. But of course, that whole fairness clause doesn't apply here.

Sorry Dan, but those guys are fricken losers, and weree banned from here for very good reasons. Nice to see them still being what they are all this time later.

Of course, more people will read that hre in a ay than read it there in a year. They've got what, 66 readers, most of which never post, and a dozen of which are just the same 4 losers posting to themselves?

Their opinions on martial arts matters aren't worth recycled cat litter.

I still like you though.

 

[arnisador]

This was posted by Paul Martin
[...]
I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows
the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Speaking as a member of the academic world with extensive experience in this matter...we are very careful not to judge people in disciplines other than our own, even if it's a similar "general" discipline. Professionals in chemistry don't second guess chemical engineers, for example. Your advisor and your dept. make the recommendation. It's not a matter of being "on par" as many uneducated people are very intelligent. It's a matter (for a doctorate) of definitely advancing the knowledge of your field. Only those in your very specific field can judge that.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Alright. Ive been lurking on this thread because its pretty long and pretty heated, making for some interesting reading. To add my 2 cents, I think many people (myself included), are unclear as to what "Grandmaster" means. Wikipedia has this page regarding Grandmasters. How does it fare regarding general consensus?

What is a Grandmaster?
What does the title endow the holder with?

VERY good question so I'll chime in first.

To me, Grand Master has to do with a head of a system or a title of someone who is. In a number of schools/styles it is also associated with 8th dan and up. The big mistake is to think it is an be-all end-all. It is a harmonic of lower ranks. Just as a 10th dan still needs to train to keep up his/her skills, the same with a Grand Master.

It is also an attitude. Let me explain and I hope this clears up a couple of things as far as any question regarding myself (some things were perceived as unclear from a phone call I received). After MA-80 being recognized in the Philippines in 2006 as a valid branch of the mother art, Modern Arnis and receiving the "Honor Of Gat Andres Bonafacio" award from the Philippine Classical Arnis Council recognizing me as "Founder, MA-80 System," I have had the attitude of a Grand Master. This is a personal thing. I haven't called myself one, just assumed the attitude and beingness of one. When I tested for induction onto the Grand Masters Council two weeks ago, I walked onto the floor with the attitude and bearing of one. Being admitted onto the council was frosting on the cake.

Was I promoted to GM? No. The council doesn't promote someone to Grand Master. They feel you are already a Grand Master when you test for induction onto the council. Did I self promote? Not in the way of formal declaration and announcement. Have I considered myself one? For the last couple years, yes. Do I consider myself one now? As regards MA-80 and American Freestyle Karate (established 1977), yes.

What does this mean in the long run? It means I keep doing what I have been doing for the last 41, nearly 42 years - keep researching the arts, keep training in the arts and keep the faith. No matter the title or rank or lack thereof, that's all one can do.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - What does the title endow the holder with? Sometimes a target. Oh well... :cheers:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Speaking as a member of the academic world with extensive experience in this matter...we are very careful not to judge people in disciplines other than our own, even if it's a similar "general" discipline. Professionals in chemistry don't second guess chemical engineers, for example. Your advisor and your dept. make the recommendation. It's not a matter of being "on par" as many uneducated people are very intelligent. It's a matter (for a doctorate) of definitely advancing the knowledge of your field. Only those in your very specific field can judge that.

Only one problem here, Jeff. You are comparing professionals in sciences. Your comments I can agree with regarding sciences but when you get into the arts, whether physical or otherwise, then it can be a judgement call. From your own experience you can tell whether someone has trained or not. You have been around the block a few times yourself. martial arts is like that. One judging motion, timing, distancing, theories and principles behind what one is doing. Martial arts are similar in those aspects and one can tell if someone else is or is not full of it.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dick,

The key point here I wanted to make is that to disfavor a group based on a name is basically unfair. The middle section which is a blast against whoever (whether Tim or not) ISN'T the point I wanted to make and it is my mistake for including that section. There are many dojos which have programs that are excellent and many have the same titled programs which are not so good and to lump them all together without inspection is unfair. So, I'll re-post:

And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point...

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

This is the point I wanted to make.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisador]

I agree that martial arts are different; we can tell who is effective and who is not, and who has truly internalized the material and who has not. I was responding only to the comparison to the academic world, which I find lacking (even, though I agree somewhat less so, in the humanities).

 

[The Game]

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point...

I don't think anyone here is saying that they aren't legit because of the intentional misuse of the term. But I do think it's a fair concern. There are a hundred different halls and councils and boards out there, so I guess it's a matter of whatever paper you feel the need for, and all that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Arni, you arguing over the MD vs DDS? I thought they were all medical doctors myself. My bone popper has more time in med school than my primary. Just different licencing, I thunk.

 

[The Game]

I missed the above comment earlier.
A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.

Ok, fine. I'm sorry for the honest misunderstanding on my part.
The rest of my opinion of that group however stands.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

First of all I think we need to split the thread.

LL you wrote:
Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a Grandmaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork.
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.

If you're basing things on how many times I've mentioned GGM Ernesto and Kombatan on the net, then you don't know what you're talking about. Let me lay this out for you.
1999:
GGM Ernesto was hospitalized in the PI and was unsure if he was going to survive. The Kombatan people reached out to me to see if I could get Prof Remy to visit him in case his condition was fatal. I called Remy in the PI and he reached out to his sick brother. Fortunately Ernesto's condition was not fatal.
2000:
I met GGM Ernesto for the first time in Maine. My Kombatan training began. Later that year I traveled to Lake Tahoe to attend another Kombatan seminar featuring GGM Ernesto and met Rick Manglinong as well.
2001:
I went to Reno and trained with GMM Ernesto again. At this event I formalized having Rick Manglinong teach at my 2002 camp.

2002:
I had Rick M. teach at the first WMAA Camp. Since then he has only missed one of the Buffalo camps and has taught at other events with me.

I have had a lot of exposure to Kombatan in the last nine years. Don’t you think I trained during this time? I don’t log my training sessions on line for everyone’s approval. I’m surprised that you didn’t question my promotion to Master Instructor in Bando Stick Fighting. Using your logic I only mentioned Gyi or his art a few times on the net, so I must not have trained it.

You quoted me here:

10-13-2001
“Ernesto has his own art Kombatan. It is not the same program."
Since then I have a greater understanding of the art. What I didn’t realize was that GGM Ernesto was teaching what was unique to Kombatan, not what is in common. After years of training and having access to the rank curriculum I realized that there is a lot in common, which only makes sense seeing that Prof Remy taught his two younger brothers?

When GGM Ernesto promoted me part of it was based on knowing the program that had much in common with his own as well as what I have done in and for his older brother's art.

 

[Dan Anderson]

And BTW, while I may not have trained much with Prof. Presas, my teacher Brian Zawilinski has. He's taught me quite a bit, and I thank God that I'm fortunate to have someone like him, practically in my backyard.

Mike

Brian is a good egg!

Yours,
Dan Anderson