Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis

[Edmund BlackAdder]

One question.

How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count.

 

[Guro Harold]

I have a problem with anything that Jeff Delaney says as he called me a liar to my face. He started in 1994, (* I had already turned down more rank then most, becuase I did and still do not worry about that but what I can do in person. *) he then stated that since I had never tested underneath him at a camp I had no rank and if I had a certificate it was a fraud either by my own doing or by the person who gave it to me.

This is consistent with what he had published on his website from what I recall. He is only recognizing rank from his own organization.

For he did not believe that our school tested at our school just like they always had since 1977/78 time frame. So, when some people who have nothing to gain tell me one thing, and those who keep quiet to avoid looking like they are jealous or have an ego issue, as well as what I remember reading, it makes for a nice piece of history form a certain point of view.

Was it that he didn't believe or "refused to recognize"? Those are two totally different things.

Opening up a can of worms... Weren't there other individuals who stopped recognizing other groups or organizations and stated basically that their group was the true group? I heard that this was going on internationally.

So if Jeff told you that, then good for him and good for you to verify that.

He indeed told me this but basically he didn't have to tell me anything. He only knew me from the seminars that we both attended from the Southeast.
The only reason that I mentioned what he told me is that it seemed at one point in time from his words to me that IMAF,Inc and he had the same understanding, so it appeared.

But, as fas as I am concerned Jeff has no rank (* When I cannot be nice, I return the attitude and actions towards me back towards its' initiator *)

Understood and that's a personal decision. Respectfully, I recognize any valid rank granted from GM Presas.

Jeff can go teach, he can have his organization. He can even promote who ever he wants to what ever rank or title. I presonally do not recognize any of it, but what does that mean in the bigt picture? One person in a small school that dislikes and does not approve nor recognizes a person who has an organization is nothing but is speed bump in his way to making money off of videos and seminars.

Jeff is doing his thing. God bless him. I do not agree with the titles that they use. Honestly, he is doing more to promote the Professor's art than I am right now so I am in no position to criticize anyone.

I support Dr. Schea and the rest of the MoTT's as well as the Datu's and the Senior Masters, as well as the Children if GM RP in the USA and around the world. I recognize all their work and effort and attempt to promote the art of Modern Arnis, and wish them the best.

Same here, including supporting the work of Dan Anderson, Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, and of course Tuhon Ray.

Rich, please know that I have the utmost respect for you. I do agree with Paul that

the sooner we all realize that titles and rank within each separate organization are only meaningful within the corresponding organization, and completely arbitrary outside of it, the easier it will be to respect each other, without feud or conflict over such matters.

Now translating it to my own words...

It's easy to be apolitical when you don't give a damn!

 

[arnisador]

Respectfully, I recognize any valid rank granted from GM Presas.

Me too (and I believe that Mr. Parsons meant the same). Unfortunately, people seem to disagree on what rank to recognize from there on!

 

[Guro Harold]

Me too (and I believe that Mr. Parsons meant the same).

I'm sure that this is a unique situation.

 

[Cruentus]

It's easy to be apolitical when you don't give a damn!

Damn straight!

Because, in all seriousness, I don't think Professor would have wanted me to give a damn; not about incidentals like what rank or title someone uses, or the structure of other peoples organizations, and so forth. Who are we helping with what we do? Who's lives are we saving? Who's lives are we improving?

There is just a lot more to give a damn about, that I think that Professor would have rather had me worry about then other incidental matters.

So I guess that depending on ones perspective, it is easy to be apolitical...

Paul Janulis

 

[Guro Harold]

Damn straight!

Because, in all seriousness, I don't think Professor would have wanted me to give a damn; not about incidentals like what rank or title someone uses, or the structure of other peoples organizations, and so forth. Who are we helping with what we do? Who's lives are we saving? Who's lives are we improving?

There is just a lot more to give a damn about, that I think that Professor would have rather had me worry about then other incidental matters.

So I guess that depending on ones perspective, it is easy to be apolitical...

Paul Janulis

I agree, Paul!

The Professor would want us to care about Modern Arnis. As students of Modern Arnis, we should care how the Professor is remembered and that Modern Arnis grows.

Finally, politics reside distinctly within a cohesive group, whose decisions affect our life. Therefore, a certain groups' politics only affect me if I choose to be a part of a certain group, or choose to care, or if there is potential infringement.

Take care,

Harold

 

[Rich Parsons]

Was it that he didn't believe or "refused to recognize"? Those are two totally different things.

Rich: I tested in Flint in front of Remy, we would bring him in.

Jeff: No, that is impossible Remy never tested outside of a camp.

Rich: I have the video tape and the certificates.

Jeff: I do not believe it, it must not be a real certificte. But, if you log into the the website I run and join, then we can talk about testing you, and see if you deserve any rank at all.

Rich: I am not interested in testing, and have not been for a while.

Jeff: Well if you want any rank at all then you have to come to me or it won't count.

Rich: I am not interested, as I have my certificates.

Jeff: They must be fake, or not a valid recognized one.

Rich: *** Walks away before he does something that would require the police to respond ***

A few minutes later:

Rich: Randi (* Dr. Schea *) what is your opinion on testing? (* After discussing my conversation with Jeff where Randi was just listening. *)

Dr. Schea: We plan on not testing for a little while and see where everyone is, and go from there.


The first is nothing I would belong to nor support, and second while in the situation may not seem right, is and was a class act.

Opening up a can of worms... Weren't there other individuals who stopped recognizing other groups or organizations and stated basically that their group was the true group? I heard that this was going on internationally.

I remember something of this, but cannot speak to it with out some research. Some thing stick in your mind while others do not.

He indeed told me this but basically he didn't have to tell me anything. He only knew me from the seminars that we both attended from the Southeast.
The only reason that I mentioned what he told me is that it seemed at one point in time from his words to me that IMAF,Inc and he had the same understanding, so it appeared.

He may give respect to some, but he gave insult to others or at least me.

Understood and that's a personal decision. Respectfully, I recognize any valid rank granted from GM Presas.

I think the key here is the wording and meaning of Valid. In this case, I use Jeff's definition, as he did not test in front of me, his rank is not recognized nor valid. All others are given the utmost respect and have no questions.

Jeff is doing his thing. God bless him. I do not agree with the titles that they use. Honestly, he is doing more to promote the Professor's art than I am right now so I am in no position to criticize anyone.

The title is actually something I disagree with but is not my issue and really have no problem with anyone who uses for sooner or later they will be called and it will be up to te person using the title to respond properly.

Same here, including supporting the work of Dan Anderson, Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, and of course Tuhon Ray.

I included these and more in my generic comments about the titles and those that promote the art.

Rich, please know that I have the utmost respect for you. I do agree with Paul that

Harold, Thank you and I am not sure I deserve it, as you can see I am very human and have my failings.

Now translating it to my own words...

It's easy to be apolitical when you don't give a damn!

In all cases I agree. I just have a personal issue with a single person.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Soooooooooooooooooo anyway, back on topic.

The different organizations have their ranking systems and titles.

WBMA recognizes this and does not intrude in on member organizations and their rnakings. The Senior Masters in the PI recognize only one Grand Master of Modern Arnis and that is Remy Presas.

I see the validity of Dieter's point that there can be succeeding Grand Masters.

How I see it is each head of their organization can end up being Grand Master of their group or offshoot system. Rene Tongson and Cristino Vasquez are GM's in arts other than Modern Arnis. In Modern Arnis they only claim Senior Master title or status.

This is how I see it being played out in the future.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Watch for the upcoming shameless plug on my first commerical DVD.

 

[sanggot]

Dan,
..maybe SM Cris is asking why dieter is addressing some master as GM inside a modern arnis organization...in WBMA website, it shown there is one person there using GM. Secondly, i think hes not aware that this person is also the chairman of WMBA.....i could be wrong

Being the highest ranking Modern arnis in the phils or IMAFP i think
SM Cris is just concern and want to make sure the whatever information
published in the internet is correct to avoid confusion in the future

............Just my personal thought!

From Web:WBMA

• Grandmaster Rene Tongson, Senior Master Bambit Dulay and Ginalyn Relos, all IMAFP, Philippines
• Dayang Edessa Ramos, IMAFP – Switzerland
• Senior Master Dan Anderson, MA80, USA, who also spoke for
• Senior Master Bram Frank (he was sick that night) and the CSSD/SC, USA,
• Datu and Senior Master Dieter Knuettel and Philipp Wolf, DAV, Germany
• Alexander Pisarkin, RAF, Russia
• Master of Tapi-Tapi Brian Zawilinski, IMAF Inc., USA

Re: Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis

​

Currently the adminstrative chairman is Rene Tongson.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
__________________

Hello Dieter:
I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system
why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.

SM Cristino Vasquez
Lakan 9 Modern Arnis

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dan,
..maybe SM Cris is asking why dieter is addressing some master as GM inside a modern arnis organization...in WBMA website, it shown there is one person there using GM. Secondly, i think hes not aware that this person is also the chairman of WMBA.....i could be wrong

Being the highest ranking Modern arnis in the phils or IMAFP i think
SM Cris is just concern and want to make sure the whatever information
published in the internet is correct to avoid confusion in the future

............Just my personal thought!

Sanggot,

That sounds right.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dieter]

The different organizations have their ranking systems and titles.

WBMA recognizes this and does not intrude in on member organizations and their rnakings. The Senior Masters in the PI recognize only one Grand Master of Modern Arnis and that is Remy Presas.

I see the validity of Dieter's point that there can be succeeding Grand Masters.

Hi Dan,
nice to see, that we reached a level of understanding.
To get the point right: I never said, that there will ever be a Grandmaster for all Modern Arnis groups or organisations again. I think this will not be possible.
I only vote for the fact, that this title is not so exclusively for one person, The founder. For example see Doce Pares: you have GM Dionisio Canete, GM Danny Guba GM Percival Pableo, and sure others, that Im am not aware of, all in one brach of the Doce Pares.
They have reached a level of skill, understanding and experience, that they deserve to be recognized as Grandmasters.
And this way it is handeled by almost all martial arts groups all over the world.
I can understand, that especially the first generation students and family of Professor Presas would like to see the Grandmaster title being exclusively for GM Remy, but I think form a sports poclitical aspect it is not right. but this is again the dsiscussion of "THE" Grandmaster contrary to "A" Grandmaster.
Perhaps he shouöd be posthumusly honored with the Great Grandmaster title to make clear, that he is and was on a level of his own. So the next genereation of Grandmasters would not be on the same level as he is.

How I see it is each head of their organization can end up being Grand Master of their group or offshoot system.

Yes, right. That at least.
Bram teaches CSSD/SC, which is par definition a kind of Modern Arnis, because otherwise he would not be in the WBMA. And he is the Grandmaster for the CSSD/SC.
Same with GM Rodel, and GM Jerry, where at least GM Rolel never did anything else than Modern Arnis.
There again is already a problem: GM Rodel holds 8th Dan Modern Arnis and is regarded Grandmaster. Cristino Vasquez is ranked 9th Dan and is only Senior Master? Whay that? Same with GM Jerry dela Cruz. Grandmaster and 8th Dan Modern Arnis.
I respect an honor GM Rene and GM Cristion for their humble attitude. I have been discussing this with GM Rene already since 4 years. Not everybody might know this, but GM Rene was offered 9th Dan by GM Remy.
He turned it down, because he said that GM Cristino is his senior and he cannot have the same rank. This is really a very honorable attitude and shows his ethics.

But don't we have the problem with the titles from Remy, because there were inconsistencies? He gave out 6th Dan Senior Master, 6th Dan Junior Master, 5th Dan Master of Tapi Tapi, 5th Dan Master and so on.
We try to have a general rule, that this kind of confusion does not happen, at least within the DAV. I really have problems to explain to my students, why GM Rodel is Grandmaster with 8th Dan and Cristino is not with 9th Dan.
This is why I think it is senseble to handle it the way we do.

Rene Tongson and Cristino Vasquez are GM's in arts other than Modern Arnis. In Modern Arnis they only claim Senior Master title or status.
This is how I see it being played out in the future.

Yes, but GM Rodel is not.
So some are GM and some are not?

One more quote from GM Rene, during the TV interview, when we were in Manila: he was asked who is at the festival and he said. "We have Grandmasters. 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster." You can look it up in the CD of the Morningshow.

Anyway, I general I support your point, that we will never have THE Grandmaster, THE father figure as an overall leader again. That was and stays Remy Presas.

Sanggot:

..maybe SM Cris is asking why dieter is addressing some master as GM inside a modern arnis organization...in WBMA website, it shown there is one person there using GM. Secondly, i think hes not aware that this person is also the chairman of WMBA.....i could be wrong

Please be aware, that I am not responsible for the content of the WBMA website. This is done in the Philippines.
Also look out for the new FMA Digst about the 3rd FMA Festival and see, that Cristino Vasquez is always being referred to as GM.


Regards

Dieter


PS: Please look out for the Interview with Master Lisondra, one of the 10 first students and the first blackbelt of GM Remy Presas on the WBMA website.
http://www.worldbromodernarnis.com/
It will be in the research area. it should be online within the next days.

 

[sanggot]

...that is true!
...it's also true that some information need verification before even releasing it to the public......but its just me!

...so Gm Rene was offered Lakan 9 by GM Remy.......interesting!

================================================

Hi Dan,
nice to see, that we reached a level of understanding.
To get the point right: I never said, that there will ever be a Grandmaster for all Modern Arnis groups or organisations again. I think this will not be possible.
I only vote for the fact, that this title is not so exclusively for one person, The founder. For example see Doce Pares: you have GM Dionisio Canete, GM Danny Guba GM Percival Pableo, and sure others, that Im am not aware of, all in one brach of the Doce Pares.
They have reached a level of skill, understanding and experience, that they deserve to be recognized as Grandmasters.
And this way it is handeled by almost all martial arts groups all over the world.
I can understand, that especially the first generation students and family of Professor Presas would like to see the Grandmaster title being exclusively for GM Remy, but I think form a sports poclitical aspect it is not right. but this is again the dsiscussion of "THE" Grandmaster contrary to "A" Grandmaster.
Perhaps he shouöd be posthumusly honored with the Great Grandmaster title to make clear, that he is and was on a level of his own. So the next genereation of Grandmasters would not be on the same level as he is.

Yes, right. That at least.
Bram teaches CSSD/SC, which is par definition a kind of Modern Arnis, because otherwise he would not be in the WBMA. And he is the Grandmaster for the CSSD/SC.
Same with GM Rodel, and GM Jerry, where at least GM Rolel never did anything else than Modern Arnis.
There again is already a problem: GM Rodel holds 8th Dan Modern Arnis and is regarded Grandmaster. Cristino Vasquez is ranked 9th Dan and is only Senior Master? Whay that? Same with GM Jerry dela Cruz. Grandmaster and 8th Dan Modern Arnis.
I respect an honor GM Rene and GM Cristion for their humble attitude. I have been discussing this with GM Rene already since 4 years. Not everybody might know this, but GM Rene was offered 9th Dan by GM Remy.
He turned it down, because he said that GM Cristino is his senior and he cannot have the same rank. This is really a very honorable attitude and shows his ethics.

But don't we have the problem with the titles from Remy, because there were inconsistencies? He gave out 6th Dan Senior Master, 6th Dan Junior Master, 5th Dan Master of Tapi Tapi, 5th Dan Master and so on.
We try to have a general rule, that this kind of confusion does not happen, at least within the DAV. I really have problems to explain to my students, why GM Rodel is Grandmaster with 8th Dan and Cristino is not with 9th Dan.
This is why I think it is senseble to handle it the way we do.



Yes, but GM Rodel is not.
So some are GM and some are not?

One more quote from GM Rene, during the TV interview, when we were in Manila: he was asked who is at the festival and he said. "We have Grandmasters. 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster." You can look it up in the CD of the Morningshow.

Anyway, I general I support your point, that we will never have THE Grandmaster, THE father figure as an overall leader again. That was and stays Remy Presas.

Sanggot:


Please be aware, that I am not responsible for the content of the WBMA website. This is done in the Philippines.
Also look out for the new FMA Digst about the 3rd FMA Festival and see, that Cristino Vasquez is always being referred to as GM.


Regards

Dieter


PS: Please look out for the Interview with Master Lisondra, one of the 10 first students and the first blackbelt of GM Remy Presas on the WBMA website.
http://www.worldbromodernarnis.com/
It will be in the research area. it should be online within the next days.

 

[Morgan]

Harold,

Please accept my apologies, for I did not mean to put this thread sideways.

I have a problem with anything that Jeff Delaney says as he called me a liar to my face. He started in 1994, (* I had already turned down more rank then most, becuase I did and still do not worry about that but what I can do in person. *) he then stated that since I had never tested underneath him at a camp I had no rank and if I had a certificate it was a fraud either by my own doing or by the person who gave it to me. For he did not believe that our school tested at our school just like they always had since 1977/78 time frame. So, when some people who have nothing to gain tell me one thing, and those who keep quiet to avoid looking like they are jealous or have an ego issue, as well as what I remember reading, it makes for a nice piece of history form a certain point of view.

So if Jeff told you that, then good for him and good for you to verify that. But, as fas as I am concerned Jeff has no rank (* When I cannot be nice, I return the attitude and actions towards me back towards its' initiator *) and has no authority, for if my certs and paperwork are in question, when I have video tape of one of the test and witnesses then his that I have never seen is in question as well.

Jeff can go teach, he can have his organization. He can even promote who ever he wants to what ever rank or title. I presonally do not recognize any of it, but what does that mean in the bigt picture? One person in a small school that dislikes and does not approve nor recognizes a person who has an organization is nothing but is speed bump in his way to making money off of videos and seminars.

I support Dr. Schea and the rest of the MoTT's as well as the Datu's and the Senior Masters, as well as the Children if GM RP in the USA and around the world. I recognize all their work and effort and attempt to promote the art of Modern Arnis, and wish them the best.

If the day was sunny and no clouds in the sky and Jeff stated it as so, I would still go look and verify for myself and wonder what his agenda was for making such a statement.


So once again I apologize the the new Org of the Brotherhood, and also to those who are trying to have a positive discussion here. If the staff wishes to remove this post as being off topic, I will support such actions, and understand fully.

Thank you for allowing me to experss my points of view.
:asian:

Mr. Parsons,

This is a serious matter. I believe that it is relevant and I hope that your post is not moved to some other area. The WBMA is needed for exactly the reasons that you are mentioning… people not wanting to recognize or acknowledge the things that have happened outside of their own view or organization.

This also goes back to what SM Dieter stated with regard to GM Presas giving people titles and privileges that others are/were not aware of. If most people were tested and promoted at camps that should not mean that everyone was or had to be tested and promoted at camps. Then there is the issue of when did Mr. Delaney become a Modern Arnis participant? It certainly seems like it would have been after 1977/78 when you instructor received permission from GM Presas to test at his school.

In light of your situation and differences with Mr. Delaney, I wonder how many other people have had similar problems with credibility and believability because of unknown promises, permissions, promotions and titles coming from GM Presas that were never articulated openly and in a public manner. As best I can tell from reading past posts on threads related to this thread, acceptance of ranks, titles and promotions is a dominate problem in Modern Arnis across the various groups.

Good luck to you all.

Morgan

 

[Morgan]

One question.

How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count.

Dear Mods,

Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?

Something is very wrong here.

Morgan

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Mods,


Originally Posted by Edmund BlackAdder
One question.

How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count.
Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?

Something is very wrong here.

Morgan

That one is slippery. It could be just a question or a covertly snide remark. Hard to say without hearing it so personally I let it go.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Flatlander]

Dear Mods,

Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?

Something is very wrong here.

Morgan

Morgan, I'd encourage you to report the post if it concerns you, as that is the appropriate protocol. Use the triangle icon in the top right hand corner of the post you'd like to report, and address the issue in the text box. That way, you can be certain that it will be reviewed by the staff. The staff is unable to monitor every single post made here (there are usually aroung 1000/day), and they may not have the opportunity to note your concern without using the report to mod function that I have described to you.

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Dear Mods,

Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?

Something is very wrong here.

Morgan

Very simply.

At the time, he wasn't.

 

[Carol]

Dear Mods,

Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?

Something is very wrong here.

Morgan

Morgan,

I'm not a mod (of MT), but if my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Blackadder made the post before he was told to go seek tranquility. Hope that makes sense. :asian:

Also, ditto what Flatlander said. Please use the RTM button to report any concern that you have to the mods. That is the way for your concerns to be noticed and discussed. They will be taken seriously.

Carol

 

[Guro Harold]

Dear Mods,

Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?

Something is very wrong here.

Morgan

Hi Morgan,

I take your observation and concern as a high compliment!

I did notice Edmund's post and when it was posted, he had not began his search for Tranquility.

Best regards,

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator

 

[Morgan]

Morgan, I'd encourage you to report the post if it concerns you, as that is the appropriate protocol. Use the triangle icon in the top right hand corner of the post you'd like to report, and address the issue in the text box. That way, you can be certain that it will be reviewed by the staff. The staff is unable to monitor every single post made here (there are usually aroung 1000/day), and they may not have the opportunity to note your concern without using the report to mod function that I have described to you.

:asian:

OK Folks,

I’ve looked at this post again and since it is very clearly marked as #41 and dated 09-25-2006, I am totally mystified as to how this fellow could have posted this remark prior to his being sent into the relm of “tranquility seeking”. Please forgive me for being so curious and stubborn, however this poster was sent into the land of MTC non-existence some time ago! Something is not right!

I want to follow the correct protocol and file a formal complaint as suggested, however I can not find that triangle in the "...top right hand corner..." of the post; therefore and in leiu of my shortcoming, I respectfully request that the administrators accept this post as a formal notice of complaint and investigate this matter. Also, please note that Ms. Kuhr, posted as #41 on the same date and Palusut posed as #43. No one was quoting Edmund BlackAdder, so I have to ask again, how was he able to post on 09-25-2006 when he had already been sent into the land on ‘tranquility’ BEFORE that date?

Morgan

#http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/41
09-25-2006, 10:07 PM
Edmund BlackAdder vbmenu_register("postmenu_623746", true);



Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I stand between the Dorkness and the Not Bright
Posts: 310

</SPAN>
Re: Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis

​

One question.

How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count.
​