Survey - Modern Arnis Blasphemy?

My primary point was not to question Dan Anderson's ability, but to point out the principle of respect in the Martial Arts. I simply felt that since the title of Professor was in essence a term of endearment, that to take it for his own was disrespectful. But, I have to take Mr. Anderson at his word and believe that he meant no disrespect. I think that with it being pattently obvious that a portion of the community would be offended by his actions, that he might rethink his decision. Apparently he has no real plan to do that. Which I will repeat, "It's just plain wrong".
Mr. Anderson has already gone a long way to prove himself as a martial artisit, and "Kaith" I belive that he knows about putting his money where his mouth is. I feel to point out that fact to him is disrespectful, which is simular to what I was speaking out against. And such a comment only lowers the level of discourse reguarding the matter. Proffessor Presas, would not have condoned that in an open forum like this. (In private might be another matter) :)
And not to champion Mr Anderson's cause, but he is only claiming to be top dog of his style MA80. Which none of us can dispute. You might note that even though we have a honest disagreement on the matter of the "Proffessor" Title, there were no thinly veiled threats from his side of the aisle.
 
Please, don't think I was threatening Dan. There was no slight, disrespect or threat intended by me. I know of the heat he's gotten on the issue, and wether I agree with the term or not, only sought to point out, the decision to use or not use is his, and he has to deal with any fall out that may occur.

Having been hit with a few 'ya wanna step outsides' over the last 5 years by folks myself (over less inflamitory things in most cases) I felt I would be remiss if I didn't point out the possibility, as some of those same folks will no doubt take Dan to task for his choice of words or whatever.

I wouldn't challenge him, as I am looking forward to seeing him again in May. I like Dan, he's good people. :)
 
Kaith,

Did you say Challenge?

Now you have done it?

Ok, Dan I Challenge you to drinking a beer and chatting the night away and getting up and doing the camp again! :) ;)

Yeah I challenge Tough don't I? :eek: :rofl:

Seriously, I hope to have a nice chat and beer with you and others in Buffalo in May and also in July.



As for the Professor, thing; it could cause bad press. (* Search on Professor for other threads for other members ideas on professor. *) It is up to Dan Anderson to decide and for his students to decide to call him that also. I always thought it was a two way street when it came to that name / title and respect thing. Could be wrong, I have been before. Going back to find my conscious and see if it is unconsciously conscious of itself? Or in essence have another beer.

I do enjoy reading posts like Lady Presas and others, It is good to hear point of views and to be able to just maybe learn a different point of view.

Ciao

:asian:
 
(Rich) Is that to say that the seeker has found the seer, and realized that the seer was never lost? Because if that is the case, then I belive shots are in order. :)
 
Originally posted by The Mist
(Rich) Is that to say that the seeker has found the seer, and realized that the seer was never lost? Because if that is the case, then I belive shots are in order. :)
Click to expand...

The Mist,

I am thinking you have grasped the meaning.

Shots are in order. I like Te'Quila with the salt and lime or lemon.

Look me up!

:)
 
Originally posted by bloodwood
Dan stated in his opening post to start this thread, "I'm putting my butt out here on the line."
When something as controversial as the Professor Title is at the heart of the discussion people tend to get quite passionate about what they say. Dan opened this can of worms all by himself so let the posts fall where they will. If that's the way the Lady feels, So be it. Lady Presas has made only 3 posts and most are on this subject. It she felt strongly enough about this to come foreword, then give the lady her right to speak her mind.
Click to expand...

Dear Bloodwood,

No one has suggested that Lady Presas, should not speak her mind... if that has occured I missed it within this thread... please clarify the matter and quote the source.

Lady Presas wrote on 2-16-2003
"I attended most of Professor Presas' seminars in the years' immediately preceding his retirement. The majority of the people called him "Professor". Not to be rude, but I don't recall seeing you at any of these seminars, so how could you possibly know how the people addressed him?"

My objection is was specificly limited to:

"... but I don't recall seeing you at any of these seminars..."

And I believe that I clearly stated that position in my post. This has almost become a 'mantra' and some variant of it appears in almost every thread. Count the years that Professor taught in the USA - 26; count the number of possible weekends for seminars and camps - 1352 - and it becomes obvious that no one aside from Professsor was at ALL of the CAMPS and SEMINARS!!

The use of that arguement has worn exceedingly thin, it is without merit!! If one has to predicate their position on who saw whom at how many seminars/camps, then they are either very lazy or they do not have a good arguement to offer!!

I am, however, in agreement with Lady Presas' basic premise regardinng the use of the term "professor" within the Modern Arnis context. I wrote the following on 1-24-2003:

"The matter of using the title "professor" is not as simple. The major problem stems from the fact that the title and the man are so closely linked in terms of the art that it is difficult for some people to seperate the two things - the title and the man. This is a function of Remy Presas being the founder and grand master as well as Remy Presas, the man having a magnificantly giant personality... he was charismatic... he was Modern Arnis.... he was THE PROFESSOR!! Therefore many Modern Arnis activists find it is difficult, if not impossible, to have someone else, anyone else, using the title without seeing that person as a usurper of the late Professor's crown!!! That is why everyone who has attempted to use the title within Modern Arnis has come under constant fire from those within the ranks... in effect the critics are saying 'I knew the real Professor and you ain't him!'"

Lady Presas, has said essentially the same thing. Her message has not been censored, nor has anyone told her that she can't object to Dan using the title. She can. She has. And I offered a suggestion to Dan, "Senior Head Master". He declined to accept my suggestion. He is well within his right to do so and I am not offended in the least.

I am simply tired of reading that ridiculous statement about not seeing someone at the seminars and camps that another person attended. Has it ever occured to all of you who have made that statement, that Modern Arnis was taught at seminars and camps by Professor? So, if one attended 5 seminars and 2 camps a year, the most that you could have trained with Professor was 14 - 19 days a year. Who were you studying Modern Arnis with the rest of the time? And what if you only went to one seminar and one camp per year? The maximum time for training with Professor was now only 7 days for that year. Who were you training with when Professor was not available to you the other 358 days of that year?

This is why the 2003 Modern Arnis International Symposium is important to us all. We have the opportunity to meet, work with, hold discussions with some of those people who were and are the backbone of the Modern Arnis System!!! Professor may have been the heart, but the skeletal framework was provided by the people who labored day in and day out teaching the art from beginners to blackbelt! I want to honor the system, the founder and the instructors at the Symposium.

I do not believe that it is in Dan's best long term interest to insist on using the title within a Modern Arnis context, but that is entirely his decision to make. That is the way it is and nothing is going to alter that bit of reality. Both Lady Presas and I, along with many others have expressed our opinions on both sides of the matter, but it still goes back to Dan for the final decision.

Just my thoughts on this matter.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
Dan,

Just an observation. Any reason why you do not address Lady Presas as "Lady Presas", coincidence?

Palusut
 
It's interesting to watch this discussion go on. Correct me if I'm wrong (and this is essentially a point that Dan already touched on), but it seems that it all boils down to the fact that it's the same title as Remy Presas. Think about it; if Dan were in any other circle (for example, his Karate circle with which his title stems from), would anyone have a problem with his title, due to his knowledge, experience, and dedication to the arts in much the same fasion as a Professor of an academic or historical study? Most people probably wouldn't. However, due to his association with the MA group, people equate that title to the one held by Remy Presas as though it's a very specific title. It's not, in my opinion. It simply relates to the above criteria. I don't think it encompasses or carries with it some grandiose maximum of skill or ability, but rather a minimum (which may be very high) that can be built upon in various amounts or ways. Presas certainly had an extreme amount of skill, but I don't think because he did that anyone else to has the title has to perfectly emulate it. It simply states that one has a very strong knowledge in the subject with which they have studied so deeply.

If it were any other art, would there be a problem?

Just my two cents based upon reading the thread. Sorry to intrude further.
 
A fairly sound point Angus, If you had an international well established and structured body, e.g. TKD. Where someone could earn a rank or title of master, or grandmaster. But, since "Proffessor" was commonly used in Modern Arnis not as a rank, but as a Descriptive Name or term of endearment. Rather than a rank. There are plenty of rank titles or Master Titles withing the Art of Arnis. For example... Guro or (forgive my spelling it's six in the AM) Punong Guro. They would incate a teacher, and or grand master title. No one would have a problem with Mr. Anderson using the correct title such as one of theese or one of it's english equivalents or even one of a different dialect of the PI. And If I had some coffee, I might be inclined to print one possible rank chart with the title names and not just the rank names.... e.g. Lakan Tatlo... for third degree.... or just add Lakan to any number 1 to 10. Or even on the other titles that Proffessor issued such as Datu.... which isn't an established rank... it is a title of leadership within the community. So, in this case the map is not the territory. And that is why people such as Lady Presas might say to someone such as Mr. Anderson..... do you really have the detailed experience in the territory(in a current framework) to make such a decision about that map. Because if he deploys his troops, he may find there is a swamp right where he thought there was a grassy plain. And that's sort of messy.
 
To avoid the flames, let me first say I could care less what people refer to themselves as. The real issue at is not what substance a particular person has to justify the title Professor, but the context in which they use it.

If I were appointed faculty at the loacal law school to teach trial advocacy, I would get a title like visiting adjunct professor of law or some such. The title doesn't make me, what I have to offer as a teacher makes or breaks my reputation in that context.

For many in Modern Arnis, the term Professor was Remy Presas' name. Most people never called him anything but Professor or sir. Curiously, when he would meet new people in my presence, he introduced himself as Remy. Of course what made him "the Professor" was not the mere fact he actually was a professor in the Philipine University system rather it was who he was as a person, teacher, fighter and friend.

Can anyone ever be The Professor?...nope those shoes are way too big to fill. Can someone be a professor ? If they have the goods to offer probably.

I will paraphrase what I said to my students at class after learning of the Professor's death:

The Professor would not want us fighting over names (that night it was crying for him) he would want us to train. Maybe we should spend more quality time on that thought

Brett:asian:
 
I've been staying away from this thread because I feel that it's too hot to get to involved in. It doesn't seem like it's going away soon so I'll make my personal statement and be done with it.

Dan-

This seem to be your justification for you using the title of Professor in Modern Arnis.

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
I consider that in the eyes of the MA practitioners, Remy Presas upgraded from Professor to Grand Master. The early students called him Professor, the later students called him Grand Master
Click to expand...

If this is your reasoning, your data is wrong. As a person who has seen Remy more than most people, possibly everyone since he moved to the US, I feel that I can help clear things up.

Remy was the Founder and Grand Master of Modern Arnis. We addressed him as Professor. I started traveling to see Remy on the circuit in 1986 at the Mississippi Summer Camp, and continued to do so till the end in Germany October 2000, where he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He was our Grand Master, but we knew and addressed him as Professor.

This is not to say that certain areas and groups didn't address him differently.

Dan, do what you want. If you are saying that Remy was upgraded to GM so it leaves a vacant title that you could fill, people will argue this point. If you are going to use the title because that's the title you want to use, then just use it and be done with it. If we look at official titles that Remy publicly awarded people, they would be as follows: Guro, Punong Guro, Senior Master, Datu and Master of Tapi- Tapi. He never issued a "professor" title. Yes, Michael Bates was referred to as "Junior Professor" as opposed to the title that he had of Master Bates (giggle, giggle). Seeing that Remy was the only "Professor", people will think you are trying to be him.

Do what you want. My only point in this post was to clear up how Remy was addressed by his students.

I think starting this thread was a waste of time. If you are going to use the title, do it...no excuses, no whining, no crying. I have taken so much heat from several different internet forums about receiving the titles of Punong guro and Datu from Remy. I have wasted a lot a time and effort trying to defend myself for receiving these promotions from our Grand Master. I have been told that since I am a white boy, I cannot be "worthy" of those titles. Remy awarded them to me, and that's is all the validation I need. So if you are going to do this, stand up straight and take the good with the bad. Or as my stepfather used to say, "Sh?t or get off the pot".

Tim Hartman
 
The problem with SELF-PROCLAIMED titles is that they warrent a lack of respect. In the values of our Western democratic society, titles are given, not self-proclaimed. In any organization, the President, Representatives, Prime Minister etc. is elected by a coalition of his/her peers, giving him rights to the title. In the martial arts world, titles are awarded in response to being earned through testing and dedication by the hierarchy of the structure.

I could self-proclaim myself to be called Supreme Philanthropic Celadora of the Universe, but until I do something that justifies others to award me the verification of the title, it would be folly to expect others to call me by that title in seriousness.

If you were awared the title of Professor in your Karate style, then wear it with pride. However, from the posts on this thread it appears that no hierarchy of power (the Professor) or a coalition of the Modern Arnis community has awarded you rights to the title in Modern Arnis. I will not be calling you professor, and will not until the title is deemed justifiable by either myself or by a majority of the Modern Arnis community. Only then will you have rights to that title. If you students want to acknolwedge you by that title, then that is their right. I would also caution you against pressuring your own students to address you by a title they are not comfortable with.

This would apply not just for the title of professor, but for any title. For example, Mr. Hartman was given the title of Datu by the Professor and awarded a 7th degree by a panel of his peers- therefore he has rights to both.
 
The problem with SELF-PROCLAIMED titles is that they warrent a lack of respect. In the values of our Western democratic society, titles are given, not self-proclaimed. In any organization, the President, Representatives, Prime Minister etc. is elected by a coalition of his/her peers, giving him rights to the title. In the martial arts world, titles are awarded in response to being earned through testing and dedication by the hierarchy of the structure.
Click to expand...


The term Professor has never been a "Title" in Modern Arnis. It was rather a term of endearment and respect. Think of it as being a kin to Grandpa.

I think the problem is we have all lost Grandpa fairly recently. So when Mr. Anderson comes in and says call me Grandpa, my response may very well be to stomp my feet and kick over my toy box. I miss Grandpa and you ain’t him.

Please forgive the analogy, no disrespect intended to anyone. As a professional counselor I do believe that any “controversy” is tied up in the grieving process and the fact that we all miss Professor Remy.

There is no doubt Mr. Anderson he is qualified to teach Modern Arnis, in any form he chooses.

Mr. Anderson says he does not intend any disrespect towards Remy Presas. I , for one, take him at his word. Nothing I’ve read or heard him utter has ever lead me to believe he didn’t respect the Professor. I think usurping the title of Grandmaster IS disrespectful…. But that’s not Dan and is best saved for another thread.

The question is can he use the term “Professor”? Well, nobody can stop him. I understand why it upsets people but I don’t think it’s out of line. I personally think you would save yourself a lot of BS if you used one of the other titles that's been discussed. There is no sense in putting people on the defensive from the get go. As previously stated the title matters less than what you can put on the mat.

I hope to continue to use the exalted title of ”beermeDannyBoy” where you are concerned. A loftier moniker there is not.
 
Hi Folks,

A - there is no challenge received by Kaith or anybody else for that matter. Opinions and viewpoints which were requested by me.

B - Palusut - I call Lady Presas Lady the same way I call Bloodwood Blood, as a first name rather than getting formal. No insults intended.

C - An interesting point finally brought up by Tapps and Celadora - "I hope to continue to use the exalted title of ”beermeDannyBoy” where you are concerned. A loftier moniker there is not.(Tapps)" "I could self-proclaim myself to be called Supreme Philanthropic Celadora of the Universe, but until I do something that justifies others to award me the verification of the title, it would be folly to expect others to call me by that title in seriousness (Celadora)."

I have never requested that anyone call me Professor outside my school, where it is required. Most often I tell people to call me Dan or if they have a strict senior/junior formality they must follow, then Mr. Anderson.

D - Rich - I accept your challenge but will forego anything with tequila in it. It agrees with me not.

E - Tim - In the last ones I went to I heard GM more than Professor or Remy. Also this is not my reasoning, that a vacancy has been left with RP's ugrade to GM and I am filling it. To assume that is to make the preposterous assumption tha I am now filling RP's shoes, Modern Arnis wise. Ain't none of there, yet. Someday perhaps but as of February 19, 2003, ain't none of us there yet.

Again, thanks for the input I asked for. It has provided lots of viewpoints and good discussion.

Yours,
Dan Anderson :D
 
The fascinating thing I find is the comparative lack of response. Out of all the registered posters on MartialTalk, a small number have said anything one way or the other. What that means to me is in the over all picture, hardly anybody cares what the Sam Hill I call myself. Interesting.
Click to expand...

I do think people care and I don't think most agree with you. I personally believe that you are defending an undefensible position. Change it and move on or be prepared to defend it, over and over and over again. Many of your peers are sending you a message, why aren't you listening.
 
Originally posted by Renegade
I've been staying away from this thread because I feel that it's too hot to get to involved in. It doesn't seem like it's going away soon so I'll make my personal statement and be done with it.

Dan-

1.This seem to be your justification for you using the title of Professor in Modern Arnis.

2.Dan, do what you want. If you are saying that Remy was upgraded to GM so it leaves a vacant title that you could fill, people will argue this point. If you are going to use the title because that's the title you want to use, then just use it and be done with it.

3.I think starting this thread was a waste of time. If you are going to use the title, do it...no excuses, no whining, no crying. I have taken so much heat from several different internet forums about receiving the titles of Punong guro and Datu from Remy. I have wasted a lot a time and effort trying to defend myself for receiving these promotions from our Grand Master. I have been told that since I am a white boy, I cannot be "worthy" of those titles. Remy awarded them to me, and that's is all the validation I need. So if you are going to do this, stand up straight and take the good with the bad. Or as my stepfather used to say, "Sh?t or get off the pot".

Tim Hartman
Click to expand...

Tim,
I read this post and would like to respond as, of all people, you misunderstand me too.

1. Not my justification at all. See my last post above.

2. Same.

3. For my purposes it has been very fruitful. It has drawn people's opinions who wouldn't have said anything in the first place. Also, it has been claimed by another that the overwhelming consensus has been that I am misleading, misrepresenting and disrespectful but no names were mentioned nor were there anything but vast generalities. So I sought specifics, e.g. Joe Blow says "Dan, you da man." or "Dan, you fulla *****." This is how I sort out vague and general accusations and now I have specifics.

Another misconception is that I am looking for agreement in what I am doing/have done. It appears you share this misconception. We talked about this at length when I was in Buffalo for the 1st WMAA camp so I am a trifle surprised. All you old timers remember that I did the same thing back in 1977 when I coined the title American Freestyle Karate for what I do in karate. That drew some heat also but I stuck with it. There has never been any consideration in my mind that I should back off from my convictions or second guess the rightness or wrongness of my actions after I have taken the time to formulate and implement them.

This post was a fact finding mission and it has been successful. That it sparked some spirited dialogue as well is frosting on the cake.

Over and out,
Dan Anderson
 
I can't believe the fuse is still sputtering.

Located on John Bishop's Kajukenbo forum - History/Who's Who in Kajukenbo:

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi

Professor Harry Herrera
Professor Larry Gumataotao
Professor Al Dacascos
Professor Eugene Sedeno
Professor John Leoning
Professor Sid Asuncion
Professor Carlos Bunda
Professor Doug Bunda
Professor Colleen Gragen
Professor Eric Lee
Professor Sam Allred
Professor Philip Gelinas
 
Originally posted by lhommedieu
I can't believe the fuse is still sputtering.

Located on John Bishop's Kajukenbo forum - History/Who's Who in Kajukenbo:

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi

Professor Harry Herrera
Professor Larry Gumataotao
Professor Al Dacascos
Professor Eugene Sedeno
Professor John Leoning
Professor Sid Asuncion
Professor Carlos Bunda
Professor Doug Bunda
Professor Colleen Gragen
Professor Eric Lee
Professor Sam Allred
Professor Philip Gelinas
Click to expand...

Kenpo not Modern Arnis.
 
If Modern Arnis 80 is a compilation of what THE Professor taught Dan, it IS Modern Arnis.
 
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