Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis

[Dieter]

Hi,

here some answers to topics, that were touched in this thread.

Regarding MARPPIO and other groups.
If you invite groups and there is no answer, they seemed not to be interested. Serveral groups have followed the inviation and came, several did not. The WBMA is not a closed club and we hope, that other organisations will follow to join. If there is no sign of cooperation though it is fine for us, if they want to stay separate.
For an organization who wish to be admitted to the Brotherhood, they may submit a self accomplished information form together with a letter of intent to the WBMA secretariat.

Regarding this:

The Professor wanted the son to carry on the name. We all know this

Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP in the Philippines to continue and the old master in the Philippines and he never told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups.
So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than MARPPIO either. Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we are not putting down any other groups at all.
But if everybody claims to be THE right group whe only have fights for the "lead" which in reality is no lead, because it only separates people and groups from each other.

And to work afgainst this separation, and to join forces a little bit, this is why we founded the WBMA.
So also the WBMA is not a better group than others. We just decided, that it is better to work together than stay separate and we belive, that this is in the spirit of Professor Presas.

Regarding titles:
GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last step below Grandmaster.
If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't know.
Professor Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or put down people.

But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every group is independent within the WBMA.
If for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example) Datu is the highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right or wrong. Or the other way around.
When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.

In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. (Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this.
But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is independent.



Boar Man:
Hi Mark,

I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent organisations, who do have all this.
So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a WBMA member organisation.

If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or just be a "silent member".
Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it this way.


So much for now

Dieter Knuettel
Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.

 

[Morgan]

Hello Master Dieter,

I’ve waited a few days before responding to your post. I wanted to give the people who have more time and insights into Modern Arnis than myself the opportunity to post their own comments. Since no one has done so, I will now make my own observations. You wrote:

>Hi,
>
>here some answers to topics, that were touched in this thread.
>
>Regarding MARPPIO and other groups.
>If you invite groups and there is no answer, they seemed not to be interested. >Serveral groups have followed the inviation and came, several did not. The WBMA >is not a closed club and we hope, that other organisations will follow to join. If >there is no sign of cooperation though it is fine for us, if they want to stay >separate. For an organization who wish to be admitted to the Brotherhood, they >may submit a self accomplished information form together with a letter of intent to >the WBMA secretariat.

It’s really impossible to argue with your position given that invitations were issued and a number of people/organizations declined to accept those invitations or to participate, therefore there can not be an argument about exclusion.

>Regarding this:
>Quote:
>
>>The Professor wanted the son to carry on the name.

Actually I seem to recall an article published in Inside Kung Fu last year in which Datu Kelly Worden claims that Professor Presas stated before his death that he wanted his son(s) to train his grandson (his/their nephew) to become the next GM of Modern Arnis. When it was pointed out that the grandson was not named “Presas” because he was born to Professor’s daughter and her husband his instructions to his children were to change the child’s name to “Presas”. According to Datu Worden, Professor also gave the grandson his personal black belt as a gift and token of succession. So the statement being quoted above is in error.

Master Dieter you also wrote:

>Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP >in the Philippines to continue and the old master in the Philippines and he never >told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each >other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups.


Now you have opened a potential can of worms with the above statement and it appears that there are numerous others who apparently agree with your statement. Otherwise there would have been a chorus of posts correcting you. And your last sentence clearly puts the problem right out in the open! Professor Presas was not a good organizational leader because he refused to step up and say what needed to be said. He waffled and avoided making firm positive decisions therefore a lot of people were led to believe things that were not necessarily true. This in turn pitted some individuals and groups against one another. Things really went crazy after his death.
>So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was >under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than >MARPPIO either.

There is another potential problem! Wasn’t MARPPIO founded after the death of Professor Presas? The adult children of Professor might have been charged by their father to carry on his life’s work, but perhaps not their organization. A minor nit-pick, I admit, but it is better to have all of the data correct in order to facilitate a full and open discussion based on the actual facts, not speculations and conjectures.

>Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the >Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we >are not putting down any other groups at all.

You’ve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas. Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference? It’s also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing “serious and good work” into your statement. You might want to clean up that idea as well.

>But if everybody claims to be THE right group whe only have fights for the "lead" >which in reality is no lead, because it only separates people and groups from each >other.


Bravo, you’re right on target, bulls-eye, dead center and all of that stuff. There is too much fighting and no where near enough unity and commonality of purpose among those people claiming Modern Arnis as their mother-art. The WBMA is in fact a solid first toward getting some of the fighting out of the way. Of course there will be people who are opposed to the project but that is the way things happen in life.

>And to work afgainst this separation, and to join forces a little bit, this is why we >founded the WBMA. So also the WBMA is not a better group than others. We just >decided, that it is better to work together than stay separate and we belive, that >this is in the spirit of Professor Presas.


In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art. In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept. The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers.

>Regarding titles:
>GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last >step below Grandmaster. If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't >know.

If the article that I mentioned above written by Datu Worden is any indication of Professor’s inclinations regarding the GM title, then it is a family heirloom and reserved for a family member. So the WBMA membership is correct and completely in concert with the spirit and intentions of Professor when they regard “Senior Master” as the highest title in Modern Arnis for non-family players. Nor should that be considered as a bad thing. GM is a difficult title to have and use effectively. There are a lot of demands made on the people who hold the title.
>Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, >Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well >imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that >the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or >put down people.

It was never a matter of ‘hurting or putting people down’, if I am reading your statements correctly, Master Dieter. Given what you’ve said early on in your post and given my understanding of leadership qualities, Professor, avoided taking responsibility for making hard, difficult decisions as the head of the system. He in effect left things for you and others to fuss over and figure out. It was a classic “divide and conquer” strategy. People fought one another for perks and leading roles in Modern Arnis, while viewing professor as some sort of hero and legend. Look at all of the arguing, fighting, politics and titles that have been strung out over the history of Modern Arnis! In the end who did everyone look to and embrace? Yet very few of the so-called leadership people, MOTTS, Datus, PGs, SMs and the like are well respected and supported by one another. And in the end, given all of the titles that have floated around Modern Arnis there isn’t a hierarchy established for them. For instance, the MOTTS title seems to indicate tat it is the highest level of the physical art. Yet that distinction even if true does not mean that the MOTTS have the clearest and most complete understanding of the foundations Modern Arnis. In fact that title does not designate the MOTTS as good, better or the best teachers of the art. If the art is going to survive and prosper over several generations wouldn’t excellent instruction be preferable to high titles and visibility of individual people?

Don’t get me wrong, rank and titles are important as incentives and rewards but as someone’s tee-shirt read at the recent Buffalo Martial Arts Summit “Skill Is Rank”. I would much rather study with and train under a lesser known, lower ranked, highly skilled teacher than a well know, high ranked person with an impressive title and marginal teaching skills!


>But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start >fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is >this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every >group is independent within the WBMA.

You’e absolutely right, the WBMA is taking the matter from where it is to where they want it to be. It doesn’t really matter what Professor said or did in the past. That was then, he is gone, it’s a new day and a new era. The WBMA has to chart a new course and avoid all of the pit-falls that has derailed cooperation in the past.

>If for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example) Datu is the >highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does >not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right >or wrong. Or the other way around. When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is >the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.


Individual groups and their leaders can’t ask for anything better.

>In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th >Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. >(Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior >Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got >personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this.
>But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be >handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is >independent.

This Last statement leads me to believe that GM Tongson actually said for than you have reported with regard to the Datu title, but perhaps that is best left for another day.

>Boar Man:
>Hi Mark,
>
>I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. >But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
>It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, >no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent >organisations, who do have all this.
>So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a >WBMA member organisation.
>
>If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or >just be a "silent member".
>Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it >this way.
>
>So much for now
>
>Dieter Knuettel
>Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.

I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.

If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is. Of course, like “Boar Man”, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization. But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.

Morgan

 

[arnisador]

The use of the datu title remains somewhat contentious, it seems! Well, it was the Professor's choice to use it.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Morgan,

I'll jump into the conversation, if you don't mind.

Since no one has done so, I will now make my own observations.

Actually I seem to recall an article published in Inside Kung Fu last year in which Datu Kelly Worden claims that Professor Presas stated before his death that he wanted his son(s) to train his grandson (his/their nephew) to become the next GM of Modern Arnis. When it was pointed out that the grandson was not named “Presas” because he was born to Professor’s daughter and her husband his instructions to his children were to change the child’s name to “Presas”. According to Datu Worden, Professor also gave the grandson his personal black belt as a gift and token of succession. So the statement being quoted above is in error.

Mr. Worden's article is one of the statements Prof. Presas made prior to his death about carrying on the art. From my understanding, Prof. Presas' last will also named Jeffery Delaney and Randi Shea as Grandmasters of Modern Arnis as well. He also asked Tim Hartman to carry it on while he was in Germany. I, nor anyone else that I know, will dispute what Mr. Wroden claims in his article. Prof. Presas charged others with carrying on the art as well.

Master Dieter you also wrote:

Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP in the Philippines to continue and the old master in the Philippines and he never told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups.


1Now you have opened a potential can of worms with the above statement and it appears that there are numerous others who apparently agree with your statement. Otherwise there would have been a chorus of posts correcting you.

2And your last sentence clearly puts the problem right out in the open! Professor Presas was not a good organizational leader because he refused to step up and say what needed to be said. He waffled and avoided making firm positive decisions therefore a lot of people were led to believe things that were not necessarily true. This in turn pitted some individuals and groups against one another. Things really went crazy after his death.

Both one and two pretty much say it.

So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than MARPPIO either.

There is another potential problem! Wasn’t MARPPIO founded after the death of Professor Presas? The adult children of Professor might have been charged by their father to carry on his life’s work, but perhaps not their organization. A minor nit-pick, I admit, but it is better to have all of the data correct in order to facilitate a full and open discussion based on the actual facts, not speculations and conjectures.

Yes. MARPPIO was founded after the death of Prof. Presas. The Presas kids were not charged with carrying on his organization, which at the time was IMAF.

Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we are not putting down any other groups at all.

You’ve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas. Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference? It’s also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing “serious and good work” into your statement. You might want to clean up that idea as well.

Better mark that up to English being a second language for Dieter. There is no implication being made of any kind. I was there at the founding of the WBMA and it was very clear that there was NO impications being made like this.

In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art. In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept. The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers.

Yes, yes, and if I didn't make myself clear - yes.

I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.

It is a title he was awarded by Prof. Presas and he uses it. The same with me and the title of Senior Master.

If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is. Of course, like “Boar Man”, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization. But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.

Well, it's not fully settled if WBMA is just an organization comprised of organizations. People like the Boar Man would be a great addition to the group. I've worked with him and he's good people.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Morgan[/quote]

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hello Master Dieter,

I’ve waited a few days before responding to your post. I wanted to give the people who have more time and insights into Modern Arnis than myself the opportunity to post their own comments. Since no one has done so, I will now make my own observations. You wrote:

>Hi,
>
>here some answers to topics, that were touched in this thread.
>
>Regarding MARPPIO and other groups.
>If you invite groups and there is no answer, they seemed not to be interested. >Serveral groups have followed the inviation and came, several did not. The WBMA >is not a closed club and we hope, that other organisations will follow to join. If >there is no sign of cooperation though it is fine for us, if they want to stay >separate. For an organization who wish to be admitted to the Brotherhood, they >may submit a self accomplished information form together with a letter of intent to >the WBMA secretariat.

It’s really impossible to argue with your position given that invitations were issued and a number of people/organizations declined to accept those invitations or to participate, therefore there can not be an argument about exclusion.

>Regarding this:
>Quote:
>
>>The Professor wanted the son to carry on the name.

Actually I seem to recall an article published in Inside Kung Fu last year in which Datu Kelly Worden claims that Professor Presas stated before his death that he wanted his son(s) to train his grandson (his/their nephew) to become the next GM of Modern Arnis. When it was pointed out that the grandson was not named “Presas” because he was born to Professor’s daughter and her husband his instructions to his children were to change the child’s name to “Presas”. According to Datu Worden, Professor also gave the grandson his personal black belt as a gift and token of succession. So the statement being quoted above is in error.

Master Dieter you also wrote:

>Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP >in the Philippines to continue and the old master in the Philippines and he never >told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each >other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups.


Now you have opened a potential can of worms with the above statement and it appears that there are numerous others who apparently agree with your statement. Otherwise there would have been a chorus of posts correcting you. And your last sentence clearly puts the problem right out in the open! Professor Presas was not a good organizational leader because he refused to step up and say what needed to be said. He waffled and avoided making firm positive decisions therefore a lot of people were led to believe things that were not necessarily true. This in turn pitted some individuals and groups against one another. Things really went crazy after his death.
>So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was >under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than >MARPPIO either.

There is another potential problem! Wasn’t MARPPIO founded after the death of Professor Presas? The adult children of Professor might have been charged by their father to carry on his life’s work, but perhaps not their organization. A minor nit-pick, I admit, but it is better to have all of the data correct in order to facilitate a full and open discussion based on the actual facts, not speculations and conjectures.

>Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the >Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we >are not putting down any other groups at all.

You’ve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas. Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference? It’s also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing “serious and good work” into your statement. You might want to clean up that idea as well.

>But if everybody claims to be THE right group whe only have fights for the "lead" >which in reality is no lead, because it only separates people and groups from each >other.


Bravo, you’re right on target, bulls-eye, dead center and all of that stuff. There is too much fighting and no where near enough unity and commonality of purpose among those people claiming Modern Arnis as their mother-art. The WBMA is in fact a solid first toward getting some of the fighting out of the way. Of course there will be people who are opposed to the project but that is the way things happen in life.

>And to work afgainst this separation, and to join forces a little bit, this is why we >founded the WBMA. So also the WBMA is not a better group than others. We just >decided, that it is better to work together than stay separate and we belive, that >this is in the spirit of Professor Presas.


In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art. In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept. The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers.

>Regarding titles:
>GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last >step below Grandmaster. If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't >know.

If the article that I mentioned above written by Datu Worden is any indication of Professor’s inclinations regarding the GM title, then it is a family heirloom and reserved for a family member. So the WBMA membership is correct and completely in concert with the spirit and intentions of Professor when they regard “Senior Master” as the highest title in Modern Arnis for non-family players. Nor should that be considered as a bad thing. GM is a difficult title to have and use effectively. There are a lot of demands made on the people who hold the title.
>Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, >Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well >imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that >the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or >put down people.

It was never a matter of ‘hurting or putting people down’, if I am reading your statements correctly, Master Dieter. Given what you’ve said early on in your post and given my understanding of leadership qualities, Professor, avoided taking responsibility for making hard, difficult decisions as the head of the system. He in effect left things for you and others to fuss over and figure out. It was a classic “divide and conquer” strategy. People fought one another for perks and leading roles in Modern Arnis, while viewing professor as some sort of hero and legend. Look at all of the arguing, fighting, politics and titles that have been strung out over the history of Modern Arnis! In the end who did everyone look to and embrace? Yet very few of the so-called leadership people, MOTTS, Datus, PGs, SMs and the like are well respected and supported by one another. And in the end, given all of the titles that have floated around Modern Arnis there isn’t a hierarchy established for them. For instance, the MOTTS title seems to indicate tat it is the highest level of the physical art. Yet that distinction even if true does not mean that the MOTTS have the clearest and most complete understanding of the foundations Modern Arnis. In fact that title does not designate the MOTTS as good, better or the best teachers of the art. If the art is going to survive and prosper over several generations wouldn’t excellent instruction be preferable to high titles and visibility of individual people?

Don’t get me wrong, rank and titles are important as incentives and rewards but as someone’s tee-shirt read at the recent Buffalo Martial Arts Summit “Skill Is Rank”. I would much rather study with and train under a lesser known, lower ranked, highly skilled teacher than a well know, high ranked person with an impressive title and marginal teaching skills!


>But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start >fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is >this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every >group is independent within the WBMA.

You’e absolutely right, the WBMA is taking the matter from where it is to where they want it to be. It doesn’t really matter what Professor said or did in the past. That was then, he is gone, it’s a new day and a new era. The WBMA has to chart a new course and avoid all of the pit-falls that has derailed cooperation in the past.

>If for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example) Datu is the >highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does >not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right >or wrong. Or the other way around. When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is >the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.


Individual groups and their leaders can’t ask for anything better.

>In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th >Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. >(Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior >Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got >personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this.
>But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be >handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is >independent.

This Last statement leads me to believe that GM Tongson actually said for than you have reported with regard to the Datu title, but perhaps that is best left for another day.

>Boar Man:
>Hi Mark,
>
>I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. >But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
>It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, >no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent >organisations, who do have all this.
>So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a >WBMA member organisation.
>
>If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or >just be a "silent member".
>Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it >this way.
>
>So much for now
>
>Dieter Knuettel
>Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.

I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.

If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is. Of course, like “Boar Man”, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization. But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.

Morgan

Morgan,

This is not an attack on you. Nor am I trying to cause a problem here.

I heard the Lisa Mc Manus's (* Whom I have nothing to gain by mentioning her name or associations *) son was also mentioned to a possible GM in the future if he trained hard enough.

I myself in '86/'87 was offered by the Late GM Remy A Presas to go with him to Sweden, and become a Protege. Now as Uncle Rocky already had that priviledge I knew that it would be lots of great training. But I chose to stay in college and continue work towards my degree. What that means for me is absolutely nothing other than someone said I could be if I left school and spent time traveling with him. As to the continued training while in school and seeing when ever I could.

I know he gave out titles and rank and also made people feel good for their efforts to train and to work. I know he had desires to want everyone to carry on his life's work. (* No disrespect to anyone with a title from GM Presas or those who have Rank as well or both. *) I saw him talk to people including kids to try to get the hooked on Modern Arnis and to capture the passion for it.

So no disrespect to you and everyone else that believes wants or wishes for a family member to be at the head of everything Modern Arnis. As you stated there already are organizations, and there will be and are people who will train with and or all of them for GM Remy A Presas told them all to teach and to go forward, at least from most of the leaders of the orgs I have talked too.

Now, I do extend respect to the family, and I do honest wish them the best.








***** My apologies Dan and Dieter and MT for being slightly off topic. *****

 

[Morgan]

The use of the datu title remains somewhat contentious, it seems! Well, it was the Professor's choice to use it.

Maybe for some, but I merely made an observation about a bit of an inconsistancy within Master Dieter's post, as I saw it.

Morgan

 

[Morgan]

Morgan,

This is not an attack on you. Nor am I trying to cause a problem here.

I heard the Lisa Mc Manus's (* Whom I have nothing to gain by mentioning her name or associations *) son was also mentioned to a possible GM in the future if he trained hard enough.

I myself in '86/'87 was offered by the Late GM Remy A Presas to go with him to Sweden, and become a Protege. Now as Uncle Rocky already had that priviledge I knew that it would be lots of great training. But I chose to stay in college and continue work towards my degree. What that means for me is absolutely nothing other than someone said I could be if I left school and spent time traveling with him. As to the continued training while in school and seeing when ever I could.

I know he gave out titles and rank and also made people feel good for their efforts to train and to work. I know he had desires to want everyone to carry on his life's work. (* No disrespect to anyone with a title from GM Presas or those who have Rank as well or both. *) I saw him talk to people including kids to try to get the hooked on Modern Arnis and to capture the passion for it.

So no disrespect to you and everyone else that believes wants or wishes for a family member to be at the head of everything Modern Arnis. As you stated there already are organizations, and there will be and are people who will train with and or all of them for GM Remy A Presas told them all to teach and to go forward, at least from most of the leaders of the orgs I have talked too.

Now, I do extend respect to the family, and I do honest wish them the best.

***** My apologies Dan and Dieter and MT for being slightly off topic. *****

Thanks for the new bits of information that I was unaware of about Ms. McManus's son and the "protege" title. Your post merely supports my contentions and in no way are we in a disagreement. As for the family member leading the Modern Arnis system, I was merely refering to the Datu Worden article, not expressing any wish, need, desire or hope on my part. Any one or group of people can lead Modern Arnis as far as I'm concerned. From what has gone on since I began reading this forum 3 years ago that are an ample number of people claiming to be the leader.

Morgan

Morgan

 

[Dan Anderson]

From what has gone on since I began reading this forum 3 years ago that are an ample number of people claiming to be the leader.

Morgan

Hi Morgan,

That has gone on but it is more accurate to say that in Modern Arnis, there are leaders.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dieter]

Hi Morgan,

you do read very carefully.

I try to answer some of your questions, that I feel are still open, because Dan answered quite a lot as well.

In regarding the article of Datu Kelly, as well the protege and son of Lisa McManus.
I know the story of his grandson Carlos. Just I got it from Roland Dantes, who was also there. And he told me, that Remy said this in a way a grandfathe says it lovingly to his grandson: "So you will be the next Grandmaster of Modern Arnis?"
And not is a way: "I declare to the rest of the worls: This will be the new grandmaster"
Thhis gives another touch to this story, at least for me.

Quote:

You’ve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas. Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference? It’s also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing “serious and good work” into your statement. You might want to clean up that idea as well.
Dan:
Better mark that up to English being a second language for Dieter. There is no implication being made of any kind. I was there at the founding of the WBMA and it was very clear that there was NO impications being made like this.

Thanks Dan this is correct. No intentions against other groups.
We are all doing the work in continuing the legacy of Professor presas and the Modern Arnis.

In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art. In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept. The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers.

You are right and we will, as Dan also said. (Btw: did he say: Yes?)
But I am sure, in the futire the lable: "Member of the WBMA" will be a quality feature for otganisation and groups. There will be groups, who have it and there will be groups who don't have it.

Well, regarding the Grandmaster title, there will never again be THE Grandmaster of Modern Arnis. But my opinion is (this is not an official WBMA statement, but my personal opinion), and I know that other people have others, that it is no problem to have several Grandmasters in a style. In Germany, Karate, Judo, Ju-Jutsu, Taekwondo, almost all of the established styles regard everybody with 6th Dan and higher as a Grandmaster. Well, "a" Grandmaster, not "the" Grandmaster. I have written how we handle it in the DAV, but that is a DAV policy, not a WBMA policy.

It was never a matter of ‘hurting or putting people down’, if I am reading your statements correctly, Master Dieter. Given what you’ve said early on in your post and given my understanding of leadership qualities, Professor, avoided taking responsibility for making hard, difficult decisions as the head of the system. He in effect left things for you and others to fuss over and figure out. It was a classic “divide and conquer” strategy. People fought one another for perks and leading roles in Modern Arnis, while viewing professor as some sort of hero and legend. Look at all of the arguing, fighting, politics and titles that have been strung out over the history of Modern Arnis! In the end who did everyone look to and embrace? Yet very few of the so-called leadership people, MOTTS, Datus, PGs, SMs and the like are well respected and supported by one another. And in the end, given all of the titles that have floated around Modern Arnis there isn’t a hierarchy established for them. For instance, the MOTTS title seems to indicate tat it is the highest level of the physical art. Yet that distinction even if true does not mean that the MOTTS have the clearest and most complete understanding of the foundations Modern Arnis. In fact that title does not designate the MOTTS as good, better or the best teachers of the art. If the art is going to survive and prosper over several generations wouldn’t excellent instruction be preferable to high titles and visibility of individual people?

Well, the tiltes, and each and every one of it, was a sign, that the professor valued the person, he gave the tile to. If they are good teachers, have all the Modern Arnis wisdom in the world or are good leaders, the tiles do not really say. The allmust have impressed the Professor in one way or the other, bacause he had thousands of students, and in the end only a handfull who he gave titles to.
Perhaps in 5 or 10 years, you will see, who is a leader. Who followed the path through. Who was active and leading. Who produced students and which quality are they. Where does Modern Arnis grow and who supported this. So time and activities will separate the leaders from the non leaders. Having a tile may help at the beginning, but you have to do the work for yourself, you title will not do it for you in the end.

Don’t get me wrong, rank and titles are important as incentives and rewards but as someone’s tee-shirt read at the recent Buffalo Martial Arts Summit “Skill Is Rank”. I would much rather study with and train under a lesser known, lower ranked, highly skilled teacher than a well know, high ranked person with an impressive title and marginal teaching skills!

There is no automatism, that a higher ranked person has lesser skill.
I hear your argument often, but chances are good, that higher ranked persons have more years of experience in the art and in teaching. Just because one in lower ranked, that dies not mean he is better.

We have a saying in Germany: "Rather poor and healthy than rich and sick" Good so far, but I'd rather be rich and healthy than poor and sick. You understand?
So I belivethe chances are pretty good, that a higher ranked person is at least not worse than a lower ranked. But I am not talking about 1 or 2 degrees. I am talking about 7 - 9th degrees compared to 4th and 5th copmpared to 1srt and 2nd degrees. I hope you understand what I mean.

But I agree that in the end, quality is more important thwan rank and titles. but usually the people with rank and titles got it for a reason.

>But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start >fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is >this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every >group is independent within the WBMA.

You’e absolutely right, the WBMA is taking the matter from where it is to where they want it to be. It doesn’t really matter what Professor said or did in the past. That was then, he is gone, it’s a new day and a new era. The WBMA has to chart a new course and avoid all of the pit-falls that has derailed cooperation in the past.

This is what we are trying to do.

>If for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example) Datu is the >highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does >not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right >or wrong. Or the other way around. When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is >the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.


Individual groups and their leaders can’t ask for anything better.

This is the only way, that an organisation like the WBMA will succeed. No domination from one group over the other. If one groups would try that, would kill the WBMA immediately.

>In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th >Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. >(Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior >Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got >personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this.
>But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be >handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is >independent.

This Last statement leads me to believe that GM Tongson actually said for than you have reported with regard to the Datu title, but perhaps that is best left for another day.

Sorry Morgan, I do not understand what you want to say with your statement. Please try again with other words.

>I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. >But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
>It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, >no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent >organisations, who do have all this.
>So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a >WBMA member organisation.
>
>If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or >just be a "silent member".
>Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it >this way.
>

If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is. Of course, like “Boar Man”, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization. But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.

We see the point. Dan also says, we need individual membership for people like you anbd Mark (boar man), who support the idea and are not members of a group. And ther3e are thousands of people like you in the USA. Not member in a WBMA organisation.
But at the moment we cannot offer a solution. We are at the very beginning of the WBMA yet. Let us try to eastablish the original idea. Once he wave done that, we may come up with a solution for the individual members. Something like a Membershipo for individual supporters of the WBAM. Or an newly to found "group of individual members of the WBMA".

Give us time. We cannot do everything at the beginning. We have to learn, grow and see, what is possible and what not. Perhaps we can come up with a solution in the future.

>So much for now
>
>Dieter Knuettel
>Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.

I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.

Stop! Who said, that these organisations do not recognize the DATU title?
There is just no automatism how to get it. I am personally very proud of being one of the selected 6 Datus, that Professor Presas choose.
In the Philippines, I am VERY often approached as "Datu Dieter", from Black Belts ther and even from Grandmasters like Rodel Dagooc or SM Bambit Dulay. GM Rene Tongson prefers to approach me with Senior Master, which is perfectly ok with me too.
In the DAV we also follw GM Remys wish. He told my most advanced students (5th Dan at that time), that I shall be approached with "Datu" during the training, Then the board of directors in the DAV decided (without me, I was not part of that decision), that we handle it this way. So during the training I will be approached with "Datu" and not with "Dieter", like I handle it before and after the training. This is out of respect to the wishes of GM Presas.


And within the WBMA: What I ment with we don't care is, that the title does not make us better or higher. We do have our responisbilities and qualities and we respect them. And we also do respect the titles we got from the Professor. We just do not use them, to "outplay" others like: "I am (insert any title you want here) so I know it has to be this or that way".
When we are in the groups of the founders of the WBMA, we respect us for what we are. As people, as masters as (insert any title here again) and especially as fellow Modern Arnisadors and friends.

I hope this cleared up a few points.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis

or just Dieter

 

[SM Cristino Vasquez]

Hello Dieter:
I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system
why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.
Per your Quote regarding titles:
GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last step below Grandmaster.
If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't know.
Professor Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or put down people..........,...

In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. (Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this.
But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is independent.”.....

SM Cristino Vasquez
Lakan 9 Modern Arnis

 

[Guro Harold]

Mod Note:

Please keep posts on topic.

Welcome posts moved to appropriate thread.

Thanks,

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator

 

[Dieter]

Hello Dieter:
I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system
why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.
SM Cristino Vasquez
Lakan 9 Modern Arnis

Hello GM, SM as you like, Cristino,

no problem.
There are several aspects to that.
The first is, that we in the DAV have this ranking system (1 - 5th Dan Experts, 6th -7th Dan Master, (7th Senior Master), 8th - 10th Dan Grandmaster) since the late 80s. We have it in print since this in our theory program. It came from the times, when we were with GM Ernesto, who still handles it this way.

When we joined GM Remy in 1993, we discussed with him many matters regarding the association. So we also discussed this ranking system with him and asked, if it is correct to handle it this way. He said yes, this is ok, no problem. I was the one who talked with him about this so I know.

Second, for I understand that you out of respect to GM Remy do not claim to be a Grandmaster in Modern Arnis honors you for your humble attitude, but we still see you as one, just like GM Rene, GM Rodel, GM Jerry. They might not request this title in Modern Arnis for themselves, but in our eyes they are.

Third, I just disagree with the attitude, that only the founder can be a Grandmaster. Sorry, but I think this is not right. I can understand and respect your position, but it is not mine. If all styles would handle this matter this way, there would be no grandmasters in the world after the founders died. There woud be no Grandmasters in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, Judo, Ju-Jutsu or to go into FMA in Doce Pares etc. Most of the japanese and korean systems have the Grandmaster title connected to the 6th Dan (I think too low). Everybody with 6th Dan (some even with th 4th Dan, which I think is far too low) and above is a Grandmaster. We are living in a competetive world. Systems and structures are being compared with each other. So people do not really understand, that a system has 8th or 9th Dan who are not Grandmasters.

Also, GM Remy announced Randi Shea and Jeffrey Delaney as Co-Grandmasters. These were only 5th Dans or even only got 5th Dan at that time. So I think, that you, Rene, Rodel, Jerry etc, so people who are 10 to 30 years longer in the art than Randy or Jeff (no disrespect to those) would deserve at least the same tiltle, but not a tilte below that.
I think you seniors in the Philippines deserve, to be respected as Grandmasters for your 30 and 40 years of continuous practice and instruction in the art of Modern Arnis. And I have stated, that this is MY and the DAV position and not the official WBMA position.

It is really a matter, how one defines a Grandmaster. And the definition can be different.

Here some you can find in Wikipedia:

Grandmaster and/or Grand Master can mean:

• the title of a person Master craftsman who leads a guild or similar fraternal organization
• Grand Master (order), the supreme head of various orders of knighthood, either honorary or military orders, where he can even be its head of state
• Grand Master (Masonic), head of a Grand Lodge (of Freemasons). See e.g. United Grand Lodge of England
• Some other organisations, such as the civilian households of certain princely courts, designate a most senior dignitary as Grand Master
• A title acknowledging important or superior talent, e.g. in chess, or Grandmaster (martial arts), a title applied to an individual who has mastered a single style or has created an original, functional style. See also: iemoto

So as one can see, that it can have different meanings.
You interpretation is the one, that a Grandmaster is a person who has founded a style. For us, this is would be the founder and Grandmaster.
We define a Grandmaster, as someone, who has mastered a single style or heads a group or organisation.
The way we see it, a Grandmaster must not be the founder of a style. This is, how most of the mayor Martial Arts organisations and styles worldwide handle this titel.
Some five years ago I made this a topic here on martial talk. I called this the difference between THE Grandmaster (Founder) and A Grandmaster (senior players).

As stated in the mission statement of the WBMA, all associations are considered as autonomous organizations, who can handle their affairs the way they think is correct. Obviously, when there are several groups and people, not everybody always has the same opinion about everything.

So maybe we disagree on this specific topic, in my very personal opinion, your modesty in this matter gives me even more respect to you.
A respect, a Grandmaster deserves.

Respect to you and all the seniors in the Philippines


Dieter Knüttel
Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Dieter,

That was a very nice post on how you handle things in the DAV! Thanks for you input.

 

[Guro Harold]

Hi Dieter,

Thanks for the informative post!

The only thing respectfully that I must add is that Dr. Shea and Mr Delaney were named, "Co-Successors" in Nov 2000. This wording was also spoken to me by Jeff Delaney when I saw him in Leatherhead, England when this was decided.

Interesting enough, this announcement was made only in the context of IMAF, INC (even the dual retirements).

Best regards,

Harold

 

[sanggot]

Hello Dieter:
I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system
why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.
Per your Quote regarding titles:
GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last step below Grandmaster.
SM Cristino Vasquez
Lakan 9 Modern Arnis

...meaning Gm Tongson is now higher than his teacher SM Cris Vasquez?

… not including GM Ernesto and Roberto Presas , for what I know SM Cris Vasquez is the highest ranking Modern Arnis Master…but I could be wrong?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi Dieter,

Thanks for the informative post!

The only thing respectfully that I must add is that Dr. Shea and Mr Delaney were named, "Co-Successors" in Nov 2000. This wording was also spoken to me by Jeff Delaney when I saw him in Leatherhead, England when this was decided.

Interesting enough, this announcement was made only in the context of IMAF, INC (even the dual retirements).

Best regards,

Harold

While I respect this may be the accepted history, I believe from some of my conversations with people that one person was named as the Lead and the other was to assist. The Title or use of "Co" came about a few days later when the website was changed. I remember reading this a few days later. But I cannot find the differences upon archives for the net. So, I state this as my opinion only, which in its self is not 100% objective as I admit openly.




But, I did like to read who the DAV organization handles the titles and ranks, thank you Dieter.

I also believe that if someone wishes to not be called something then their wish should be considered as it is polite aqnd appropriate to respect someone for their desires of not using a title.

Thank you for the chance to express my points of view.

 

[Guro Harold]

While I respect this may be the accepted history, I believe from some of my conversations with people that one person was named as the Lead and the other was to assist. The Title or use of "Co" came about a few days later when the website was changed.

Hi Rich,

Actually from what I recall from Jeff, he stated things in terms as equals with separate roles. Dr Shea was to manage IMAF, Inc from the business side, while Jeff was supposed to continue the teaching aspects.

Also, upon looking at my last post it would lead that the decision was made in Leatherhead, which was not the case, the decision was made just prior, and I saw Jeff in Leatherhead. The Professor was supposed to be in Leatherhead and Venice after his trip to Hamburg, Germany (where he became ill).

Best regards,

Harold

 

[Cruentus]

At this point, the sooner we all realize that titles and rank within each separate organization are only meaningful within the corresponding organization, and completely arbitrary outside of it, the easier it will be to respect each other, without feud or conflict over such matters.

But of course there is nothing wrong with respectfully asking the question, as SM Vasquez had done, because that leads to a better mutual understanding.

Hopefully, my post is completely incidental and only stating the obvious...

Paul Janulis

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi Rich,

Actually from what I recall from Jeff, he stated things in terms as equals with separate roles. Dr Shea was to manage IMAF, Inc from the business side, while Jeff was supposed to continue the teaching aspects.

Also, upon looking at my last post it would lead that the decision was made in Leatherhead, which was not the case, the decision was made just prior, and I saw Jeff in Leatherhead. The Professor was supposed to be in Leatherhead and Venice after his trip to Hamburg, Germany (where he became ill).

Best regards,

Harold

Harold,

Please accept my apologies, for I did not mean to put this thread sideways.

I have a problem with anything that Jeff Delaney says as he called me a liar to my face. He started in 1994, (* I had already turned down more rank then most, becuase I did and still do not worry about that but what I can do in person. *) he then stated that since I had never tested underneath him at a camp I had no rank and if I had a certificate it was a fraud either by my own doing or by the person who gave it to me. For he did not believe that our school tested at our school just like they always had since 1977/78 time frame. So, when some people who have nothing to gain tell me one thing, and those who keep quiet to avoid looking like they are jealous or have an ego issue, as well as what I remember reading, it makes for a nice piece of history form a certain point of view.

So if Jeff told you that, then good for him and good for you to verify that. But, as fas as I am concerned Jeff has no rank (* When I cannot be nice, I return the attitude and actions towards me back towards its' initiator *) and has no authority, for if my certs and paperwork are in question, when I have video tape of one of the test and witnesses then his that I have never seen is in question as well.

Jeff can go teach, he can have his organization. He can even promote who ever he wants to what ever rank or title. I presonally do not recognize any of it, but what does that mean in the bigt picture? One person in a small school that dislikes and does not approve nor recognizes a person who has an organization is nothing but is speed bump in his way to making money off of videos and seminars.

I support Dr. Schea and the rest of the MoTT's as well as the Datu's and the Senior Masters, as well as the Children if GM RP in the USA and around the world. I recognize all their work and effort and attempt to promote the art of Modern Arnis, and wish them the best.

If the day was sunny and no clouds in the sky and Jeff stated it as so, I would still go look and verify for myself and wonder what his agenda was for making such a statement.


So once again I apologize the the new Org of the Brotherhood, and also to those who are trying to have a positive discussion here. If the staff wishes to remove this post as being off topic, I will support such actions, and understand fully.

Thank you for allowing me to experss my points of view.
:asian:

 

[Carol]

Since by default one must be part of an organization to be part of the Brotherhood, it isn't clear to me why the brotherhood is involved in rank to begin with.