Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.

[MJS]

Not in the least MJS. And the topic hasn't been de-railed, I kept it on track, even in the quote you gave. We should make a distinction between sparring and survival when it comes to which techniques we employ. I don't mind punching in point sparring, but in survival I'd switch to using my palm. I'm going to defend myself when its warranted, or would you advise me to... not defend myself on a public board when people are posting in a way detrimental to my view?

A forum is to discuss, and that requires alternate views. I notice you focusing on my post, but not those that proceeded it, which warranted me pursuing that thread of discussion further. It takes two to dance, if you get my drift. You won't see me being defensive when I'm on the initiative, so if you're going to lament my posts becoming tangents, well... No one could say the thread hijacked. I've found, on theology boards especially, that when speaking about God, sometimes you also have to talk about the devil. No matter what's been said, the convo always comes back to the question in the PM. Fist? Or palm? In regards to self-defense.

Not sure who you're quoting here, but I know it wasn't me. However, since you mentioned my name, I'll comment. Alex...my point is simply this: When people start a topic, they're usually looking to discuss the topic. Ex: I start a topic in the grappling section on mount escapes. THAT is what I want to talk about. If someone comes on and starts talking about guard passes...well, that is off topic. There are 2 other threads, in which the focus is on you. Perhaps if we want to talk about your other training methods, that talk should go there.

When I see underbelts able to execute it, it is a trick, nothing more. I consider it in the same class as kicking an apple off a sword- sure, it takes great flexibility, accuracy, and skill to execute... but it's still a trick designed to wow children and get people to join at demonstrations. A magician operates based off technique, skill, and degree of deception- that doesn't make it any less a skill, or a trick. I am not privy to any 'secrets', that I know of, and I am apologetic if I come off as appearing to claim to be so. But I haven't... so... it's moot.

Exactly...underbelts...people who probably dont know what they're doing. Interestingly enough, I had a guy who trained WC, do the 1in punch on me. He didn't do it hard, but hard enough to show me what he was talking about. I can assure you it was no trick. I stumbled back.

I do not think anyone lets people just wail on them, unless seriously averse toward violence. But you neglect my own statements that when pursued, as is almost always the case, it is not hard to back up and keep them running in circles. Literally. Given enough space I could probably back up the course of a football field, and keep kicking the whole way. Would you honestly purse me that far? And meanwhile, what can they do? Have you ever tried running and kicking simultaneously? Try it next time you go running. Most end up punching as they advance, losing a lot of reason in the pursuit of landing something. And as they punch, I'll happily kick their arms until the sky turns black from blue.

My point isn't that I'm awesome, or even very good. Anybody who does WTF TKD will know what I'm talking about. It's a fairly common, and basic tactic to use when it comes to kicking- retreat, keeping distance far enough to still land, but outside their immediate reach. Their kicks fail because you constantly move back. The only trick is retaining cardio to pull it off. And not get tackled. I did it with a wrestler once who was a linebacker and it didn't work out very well. My point is merely to give a tactic I have used, in response to your claim that opening by hitting the arms does not work. Sometimes, then you move to another strategy, and when that doesn't work, you move to the next, and the next, until either you are beaten or they. You know this. The only person whose guard you can't find the opening into... is the person who will defeat you... logically.

The point comes full circle- I'm not sure I can break a bone adequately with a punch. Probably, but it is without certainty. Perhaps I am miseducated, but I imagine 3 one inch slabs to be around the durability of a bone. I am certain however, that a full force palm strike will break most bones it comes into contact with. Are there any strikes you know if landed would get you put in prison for life for excessive force? That you do not execute, because of that risk of injury or death if you did execute it with 100% power and intent and speed. The palm strike is one for me, and hence is why I favor it over the fist.

I've given my 2 cents regardless; between palm and fist, I'd side with the former.

One of the things that I'd work on during my private sparring sessions with one of my old Kenpo teachers, was cutting off the ring. In other words, we'd work footwork and various drills, on the guy who was backing up, cutting them off, limiting their movement, so they'd basically be stuck in the corner. I'm not saying backing up is bad, but ya have to work angles.

As for kicking while moving back...I'm assuming you're talking about multiple kicks without putting the leg down, while you're moving back. Am I correct? If so, eventually power will start to decrease. It wouldn't be hard for someone to use timing, move in, jam your leg, and well, the rest is history..lol.

As for breaking boards, bones, etc. I am sure that you know the difference between the 2, right? Please tell me that you're honestly not comparing breaking boards to bones. Please tell me thats not what you're saying. We have had people on here, talking about the correct angle and how its not as hard as it seems. Hell, Dirty Dog is in the medical field. I'm sure he could vouch for this.

Anyways...lets get back to the discussion on palms vs. open hands. If you feel the need to reply to anything I've said here, either PM me or copy/paste what we both said, and repost it in one of those other threads.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hell, Dirty Dog is in the medical field. I'm sure he could vouch for this.

Vouch!

 

[K-man]

Okinawans focus on redirection of the opponent as opposed to their own energy generation? This is news to me. I would not say Okinawans generate the same force as Bagua, I would say that about Aikido however. I suppose our views are diametrically opposed however. I am not sure what kind of fights you've been in, but those sound more like the brawls you'll see in the video I posted, or the security officer you can watch a video in. While it is true, you can throw a punch from one foot, I can't imagine a self-defense situation where a person would do this. Chances are I'm not using my purty kicks to do anything but kick them in the neck, head, or groin, and sweeps.

Unfortunately, Alex, an enormous amount of information posted here is likely to be news to you! I will discuss the redirection below.

There are multiple occasions in the video where you can see with each strike rotation on the hip. Granted, not all the strikes are like this, but you can see quite a few certainly in how Alec is operating.

I'm not going to spend any more time looking at your video, but if you would like to post the time that you think you are using your hips to generate power for a punch I will spend the time to look.

There are people who are 'non-responders', but this seems more likely inaccuracy in applying the technique. I think all techniques fail under pressure... if used incorrectly. If I'm going to strike their arms, the tactics switch- I stay out of range, always. The nice thing about TKD, and Kendo, is gaining the ability to back up and just never get tired of kicking. I've run laps backwards doing this, and could probably back up till the end of time, circling, and just kicking. Most people after several minutes just five up- it's not worth the cardio it requires to sprint and punch, which most aren't used to.

It's wonderful that you are so technically gifted that you could make these arm strikes work. The guy who couldn't make it work on me was just an 8th dan guy who tours the world doing seminars on Kyushu. I'm not suggesting his strikes didn't hurt. They just didn't produce the effect he was trying to achieve. Not one of them!


Perhaps you could explain why I would want to follow you if you were going backwards kicking.

Staying out of range, and hitting the surface, their arms, is not hard to do. It is time consuming, and inadvisable in a situation involving multiples.

But then again, I don't understand why in a serious fight why you'd go for a tactic of striking the arms. Credit card, kick their shins in, their knees, elbows, and throat. ???? Excuse my lack of ability to understand English, but I thought it was you advocating striking the arms.

Among the first things we learn in Goju are the basic techniques of Jodan uke and Chudan uke. To beginners they are taught as 'blocks'. From other posts you may have gleaned that 'uke' does not mean 'block' but 'receive'. We also have a saying, that goes at least to 8th Dan, that these are performed with "two hands for beginners". The secret Alex, and I'll ask you to keep it to yourself, is that the first hand deflects the attack whether it be grab, push or strike, and the second hand protects, traps or strikes according to the situation. This is the same principle that you would use in Chi Na or in Tegumi. So deflection, or redirection, is actually something that I introduce to beginners on their very first day. Goju is 'hard' and 'soft'. Absorbing or deflecting the attack is part of the 'soft'.

WRT the fights. Yes, they are brawls. Right in your face pushing and shoving, hitting and getting hit. Really nothing like the video you posted. And in that situation I'd love to see how you would use your 'purty' kick to the neck or head. It ain't gunna happen. Best is a knee to the groin or thigh and yes the one you said you liked, a stomp on the foot. :asian:

 

[mook jong man]

I was not going to get into this because quite frankly trying to decipher Zenjael's language gives me a migraine.
But I have to clear up some of this BS flying around about the one inch punch.

It is not a party trick , in Wing Chun we do not break boards and stuff like they do in other arts.
So to people that are sceptical about our ability to generate power in close we put a phone book on their chest and show them the one inch punch.
Me personally I like to have a wall about half a metre behind them , not for their safety , but so that I can watch them bounce back off the wall , it makes me laugh.
It is merely a demonstration that says " If I can do this to you from this close , imagine what I can do to you from back here".

It shows the level of force that can be generated from the Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance.
Really it is not that special , it doesn't even have to be a punch , I can do a one inch elbow strike , I can do a one inch knee strike.
Or a one inch double palm strike like my master did to my chest once that left hand prints on my skin and made me feel as though I had been hit by a truck.


Zenjael mentioned why would you do it , why not use something else like an elbow or knee?
This indicates to me an ignorance of the workings of the Wing Chun system.

It must be understood that Wing Chun is a close range system , a system in which hand trapping and immobilisation of the opponents arms play a crucial role.
In some of the Wing Chun trapping movements both your arms will be trapped and trying to do an elbow strike will be impossible , the only thing left available to you maybe to try and squeeze through a close range strike or more commonly known as a one inch punch , this maybe enough to cause damage and enable you to escape the trap.

You could try to use a knee , but he will be using his stance to unbalance you as he moves forward ,so trying to raise your leg at all would be foolhardy , you are going to need a solid stance with both your feet on the ground if you are going to survive the onslaught at this close range.

Sigung Tsui Seung Tin one of the four closed door students of Yip Man , he can actually do a "No inch punch" , that is he can generate a startling amount of force with his fist already in contact with your body.

Now as to the mechanics of how the force is generated , it mainly comes from having a properly developed Wing Chun stance and something in Wing Chun that we call "Elbow Force" a type of grinding , driving force from the elbow developed by practice of the Siu Nim Tao form .

Relaxation of all the muscles particularly the shoulders , chest and thighs is very important , any tension in the muscles will result in some of your force being wasted and not penetrating the target , as the recoil force comes back from the target and back into your body.

The blockages caused by the tension in your muscles will result in your stance being affected and you thrown back instead of this force being harmlessly channelled down your body and into the floor.

In my opinion you should concentrate on learning to inch punch just using your stance and "Elbow Force" only , you can use the hip and a slight extension of your arm from the shoulder socket and that will give you a powerful strike but I would not rely on those.
When you see Tsui Seung Tin do it , the only thing that moves is his elbow.

My master used to say that each time you perform the Siu Nim Tao form you are actually working on your "One Inch Punch"
Hopefully that cleared some things up as to what it is and why we do it.

 

[Kenlee25]

Alex, or Zenjeal, or whatever your name is, it seems you want so badly to prove yourself. I will not lie and say that I read all of your very long posts defending your claims...but you seem to lack to ability to withstand criticism.

I saw you video..and frankly I wasn't so impressed. I'm not the world's best fighter here, but I've had my fair share of sparring opponents, including no gear full contact MMA sparring. I did not see much wing chun in there, and flicking your foot around like a sport Taekwondo fighter is useless in actual combat. You should treat sparring like you would actual fighting, flashy moves are cool sometimes but making them crucial into your style like that is bad mojo. I am a black belt in Taekwondo as well ( non sport ) and my teacher would literally make jokes for months if he saw us doing that.

Also, STOP TRYING TO DEFEND YOURSELF. You have a difference of opinion I get that, but on your sparring video and even now, you seem to want to prove to everyone that you are right. That's not the way you learn man. You disregared a lot of the stuff people were saying in your video because they were ( by your words ) disregarding your style. But in the end, sparring or fighting, no one cares about what style you are using, they care efficiency, and even a young eye such as mine could see problems in your sparring technique that people on this board ( i think ) would be more than happy to help you with so that you may improve.

I think, and this is coming from another young martial artist, you would find it in your best interest to just listen when the elder artist's are giving advice. You may voice discontent sure, but flat out arguing back and forth isn't the way to go.

BACK ON TOPIC.

For those of you saying that palming someone is simply a way to protect your hand from horrible punching technique, that's just not true. I've broken my hand before and every since i've known just have fragile it can actually be despite what we think. Using a strike that is safer yet generates more power seems like something everyone should know how to do in my opinion. although admittedly, I'm still way more partial to punching. After hearing all of these opinions I've decided it may be best for me just to truly perfect my punching skill even though it is not horrible to begin with.

Also K-Man I like the idea of the neutral punch. I never heard of it before, and I've been trying it out. It actually feels quite strong and natural and seems to be a good alternative between the corkscrew punch and the vertical punch - it definitely brings in both power and speed. I never much liked the corkscrew punch honestly. I've always wondered why so many styles teach it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Body mechanics allow for some startling things. Our skeletal construction and musculature allows us to generate force in a variety of ways. Some of them feel natural, some are learned behavior, and some are fairly rarely used or esoteric.

While many believe in unseen energy circulation such as chi, body mechanics does not differ in terms of describing why a given power generation method will or will not work; so chi or mechanics, it's all very understandable and clearly works.

What matters in use is that the force is applied when needed, where needed, and in sufficient quantity to get the job done. Ideally, with a minimum of wasted energy or negative consequences (such as losing one's balance, being left open for counter-strikes, breaking one's own bones, etc).

Many martial arts styles were built around central notions of body mechanics that are quite often the same or similar, but sometimes explore different concepts and methodologies. Power generation and application may differ, but in the end, what matters is execution and results.

If there was one way that was superior to all others, we'd all be doing it, and the various styles would all be teaching it. The fact that many styles seem to teach both punching and palm strike methods would seem to indicate that both are effective and both have their place. To reject one and prefer another reflects personal choice, and no one can say that it is not a correct choice for that person. To apply such reasoning to the entire martial arts world is foolish, in my opinion.

 

[Cyriacus]

I find Punches to hit harder than Palms.
If I had trained specifically to use Palms instead of Punches, Id probably be better at Palming than Punching.

If I did any and all heavy breaking with My Palms, Id be better at the art of breaking boards and tiles and stuff with Palms.
I do it with Closed Fists, and as such I am good at doing it with Closed Fists.

 

[oaktree]

In Baguazhang we uses the Palm(maybe in some of the linear or animal forms some use fist depending on the line).
I think in Baguazhang we feel the palm has multi functions. Since Baguazhang is an art involving change we use palms because it is easier to change from a finger jab to a block to a grab by turning the body and palm(hand) rather than using a closed fist to provide the change for 3 different actions. We also think that an open hand with fingers pointing has a longer reach than a closed fist, that inch or two at the right entry can be the difference of who hits first.

 

[mook jong man]

What about a punch to the solar plexus followed immediately by a palm strike , delivered by the same arm?
In Wing Chun we have a technique called "Double Striking" where the first strike immediately after landing will be converted into second different strike usually to the same target using the same limb.

A simple one would be a palm strike which then collapses into an elbow strike , it uses a battering ram type of effect where the first strike weakens the structure and the second strike finishes it off.

 

[WingChunIan]

I was not going to get into this because quite frankly trying to decipher Zenjael's language gives me a migraine.
But I have to clear up some of this BS flying around about the one inch punch.

I too was going to refrain, I was too busy laughing at the idea that you could punch and kick arms to defend against punches, lol A minute in a boxing ring or real fight, would dispel that notion and it was so humorous that I wasn't going to respond to the one inch punch stuff.

It is not a party trick , in Wing Chun we do not break boards and stuff like they do in other arts.
So to people that are sceptical about our ability to generate power in close we put a phone book on their chest and show them the one inch punch.
Me personally I like to have a wall about half a metre behind them , not for their safety , but so that I can watch them bounce back off the wall , it makes me laugh.
It is merely a demonstration that says " If I can do this to you from this close , imagine what I can do to you from back here".

I agree its not a party trick but it would seem we differ in our approach to the technique. Unfortunately the famous demo given by a WC master where he causes the student stumble backwards into a chair has given rise to a whole generation of copy cat demos that end up leading to the situation that the other poster described. When done properly (IMO) the inch punch shouldn't move the opponent backwards at all. All of the force should be into the jic seen and they should feel like you've just put your hand through their chest resulting in them simply collapsing / wobbling where they stand. A si bak of mine once did a demo where he struck a melon from contact. It rolled an inch and had no visible sign of damage other than some knuckle marks but when it was cut open the inside was mush. The same should be true of Wing Chun punches from any range, we are trying to cause damage not push the opponent away.

It shows the level of force that can be generated from the Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance.
Really it is not that special , it doesn't even have to be a punch , I can do a one inch elbow strike , I can do a one inch knee strike.
Or a one inch double palm strike like my master did to my chest once that left hand prints on my skin and made me feel as though I had been hit by a truck.

agreed, it is irrelevant what the contact point is as the striking point is not the origin of the power.

Zenjael mentioned why would you do it , why not use something else like an elbow or knee?
This indicates to me an ignorance of the workings of the Wing Chun system.

true

It must be understood that Wing Chun is a close range system , a system in which hand trapping and immobilisation of the opponents arms play a crucial role.
In some of the Wing Chun trapping movements both your arms will be trapped and trying to do an elbow strike will be impossible , the only thing left available to you maybe to try and squeeze through a close range strike or more commonly known as a one inch punch , this maybe enough to cause damage and enable you to escape the trap

. Possibly but IMO the one inch punch is merely a concept to focus on developing power from the kinetic chain without withdrawing and delivering that power into the jic seen. The power can be delivered in any direction to the nearest target as practised in SNT, (the first Wing Chun form for those not ITK).

My master used to say that each time you perform the Siu Nim Tao form you are actually working on your "One Inch Punch"
Hopefully that cleared some things up as to what it is and why we do it

agree but people would need to know what SNT is, what its for and how its trained for this to make sense. I would also add that the one inch punch is then added to by power generation methods from CK and BJ (the second and third Wing Chun empty hand forms for those who don't study the art)

 

[Tez3]

Before training last night I was telling our chief instructor how you could break arms by kicking them as I read here, as you imagine he laughed like a drain. We did the kids session then the adults, towards the end of the adults session we thought we wind down and have a bit of fun, one person stayed in the middle of the mats and everyone else took it in turns to grapple with him for 30 secs. Lo and behold all that talk about broken arms so didn't one of our lads go and break his! he was caught in an arm bar, not hard of or even fast but he pulled out and we heard a 'snap'. So last night I spent a few hours in A&E with the lad, who's only 15. His mum came up to meet us there, the lad wasn't in much pain despite the bone making a lump in his arm, he came out of X Ray saying the bone had snapped and it cool!) worse for him was sitting in the childrens waiting room! he had to stop over night in childens ward too, at the moment he's in theatres so I'm waiting to see how he got on, he's having pins and a plate plus the wrist popped so that's going back too. We don't really know how it broke, it shouldn't have done the techniques wasn't on hard or even fully, the best we think is bad luck but I don't think I'll discuss broken arms again for a while! I do stress however it wasn't a kick!!

 

[frank raud]

Before training last night I was telling our chief instructor how you could break arms by kicking them as I read here, as you imagine he laughed like a drain. We did the kids session then the adults, towards the end of the adults session we thought we wind down and have a bit of fun, one person stayed in the middle of the mats and everyone else took it in turns to grapple with him for 30 secs. Lo and behold all that talk about broken arms so didn't one of our lads go and break his! he was caught in an arm bar, not hard of or even fast but he pulled out and we heard a 'snap'. So last night I spent a few hours in A&E with the lad, who's only 15. His mum came up to meet us there, the lad wasn't in much pain despite the bone making a lump in his arm, he came out of X Ray saying the bone had snapped and it cool!) worse for him was sitting in the childrens waiting room! he had to stop over night in childens ward too, at the moment he's in theatres so I'm waiting to see how he got on, he's having pins and a plate plus the wrist popped so that's going back too. We don't really know how it broke, it shouldn't have done the techniques wasn't on hard or even fully, the best we think is bad luck but I don't think I'll discuss broken arms again for a while! I do stress however it wasn't a kick!!

Yet another reason why no contact grappling should be mandated. Its for the children!

 

[Cyriacus]

Yet another reason why no contact grappling should be mandated. Its for the children!

...No contact grappling?
Thats... Such an oxymoronic...
I cant say anything without violating a few rules about profanity

 

[Tez3]

Yet another reason why no contact grappling should be mandated. Its for the children!

LOL at no contact grappling, really?

My daughter is a cheer leading coach, they are way ahead of us on injuries. She's just got over a torn hamstring, they had a lass with a broken ankle, another with a dislocated hip, one girl fell on her face, nose hitting floor first, another wasn't caught properly and landed on another girl damaging her neck, that's just in the last couple of months. We've had this one injury in five years. Non contact grappling... roflmao.

 

[Twin Fist]

well, Chung Li DID break Shamrock's arm with a kick.

could he do it again on purpose? doubtfull.

 

[rframe]

I think the effectiveness largely depends on who is doing the striking in self-defense.

If it's someone who has some training with fighting, knows how to make a fist, and can throw a powerful targeted punch, then that's certainly an option to deliver a lot of damage to a small area and may be appropriate for them.

For the average Joe or Jane who doesn't have much recent training and just wants to know what to do if they need to strike someone to escape a dangerous situation... I think open palm slaps to the ears and slapping/gouging motions to the eyes are the most effective thing they will do. An untrained/unpracticed punch is probably going to be fairly ineffective, may very well injure the person trying to escape, and probably their best hope is that the attacker is simply stunned that the victim resisted at all.

 

[mook jong man]

I too was going to refrain, I was too busy laughing at the idea that you could punch and kick arms to defend against punches, lol A minute in a boxing ring or real fight, would dispel that notion and it was so humorous that I wasn't going to respond to the one inch punch stuff.


I agree its not a party trick but it would seem we differ in our approach to the technique. Unfortunately the famous demo given by a WC master where he causes the student stumble backwards into a chair has given rise to a whole generation of copy cat demos that end up leading to the situation that the other poster described. When done properly (IMO) the inch punch shouldn't move the opponent backwards at all. All of the force should be into the jic seen and they should feel like you've just put your hand through their chest resulting in them simply collapsing / wobbling where they stand. A si bak of mine once did a demo where he struck a melon from contact. It rolled an inch and had no visible sign of damage other than some knuckle marks but when it was cut open the inside was mush. The same should be true of Wing Chun punches from any range, we are trying to cause damage not push the opponent away.
agreed, it is irrelevant what the contact point is as the striking point is not the origin of the power.

true
. Possibly but IMO the one inch punch is merely a concept to focus on developing power from the kinetic chain without withdrawing and delivering that power into the jic seen. The power can be delivered in any direction to the nearest target as practised in SNT, (the first Wing Chun form for those not ITK).

agree but people would need to know what SNT is, what its for and how its trained for this to make sense. I would also add that the one inch punch is then added to by power generation methods from CK and BJ (the second and third Wing Chun empty hand forms for those who don't study the art)

You are perfectly correct WingChunIan there are two types of one inch punch.
At the higher levels of Wing Chun just by using the mind they can decide whether to have the force spread out so as not to hurt the person or to penetrate deep inside the opponents body.

My late Sifu could do one where it knocked you back and he could also do one where you could feel it go straight through the pad and you would feel quite ill for a few minutes.
He said the difference was in the second one he used his mind.

But if you are serious about hurting the person and with no pads or phone books in the way to spread out the force , then that person will not be moved back , they will drop where they stand.

 

[jks9199]

well, Chung Li DID break Shamrock's arm with a kick.

could he do it again on purpose? doubtfull.

Shamrock helped in that one, too, by blocking poorly. I know at least one other person who broke an arm in a similar manner...

 

[K-man]

Body mechanics allow for some startling things. Our skeletal construction and musculature allows us to generate force in a variety of ways. Some of them feel natural, some are learned behavior, and some are fairly rarely used or esoteric.

While many believe in unseen energy circulation such as chi, body mechanics does not differ in terms of describing why a given power generation method will or will not work; so chi or mechanics, it's all very understandable and clearly works.

Bill, until about 6 years ago I would have agreed 100 percent with you. Then I was introduced to a man who could move in a way I could not believe. If asked to describe it I just say it's "weird science". He calls it "Ki" and I believe him. I have spent the last five and a half years training with him and although it is a slow process, I am slowly picking it up. It has nothing to do with bio mechanics and everything to do with the mind. I have trained or met dozens of practitioners who claim to use Ki. In some cases they are using Ki but not in the way this guy does. What mook has outlined below is much more in line with what I have experienced. When you are hit with Ki, or Kokyu, or Jing, it is totally different and as mook says, the feet don't move back. The body collapses down.

Keep an open mind. I hope that one day you might experience what we are talking about.

You are perfectly correct WingChunIan there are two types of one inch punch.
At the higher levels of Wing Chun just by using the mind they can decide whether to have the force spread out so as not to hurt the person or to penetrate deep inside the opponents body.

My late Sifu could do one where it knocked you back and he could also do one where you could feel it go straight through the pad and you would feel quite ill for a few minutes.
He said the difference was in the second one he used his mind.

But if you are serious about hurting the person and with no pads or phone books in the way to spread out the force , then that person will not be moved back , they will drop where they stand.

mook, for me the test for someone who claims to use Ki is firstly that the feet don't move and second that you cannot get straight back up ready to continue. When hit this way it totally drains your energy. Just what you have described. :asian:

 

[mook jong man]

Bill, until about 6 years ago I would have agreed 100 percent with you. Then I was introduced to a man who could move in a way I could not believe. If asked to describe it I just say it's "weird science". He calls it "Ki" and I believe him. I have spent the last five and a half years training with him and although it is a slow process, I am slowly picking it up. It has nothing to do with bio mechanics and everything to do with the mind. I have trained or met dozens of practitioners who claim to use Ki. In some cases they are using Ki but not in the way this guy does. What mook has outlined below is much more in line with what I have experienced. When you are hit with Ki, or Kokyu, or Jing, it is totally different and as mook says, the feet don't move back. The body collapses down.

Keep an open mind. I hope that one day you might experience what we are talking about.

mook, for me the test for someone who claims to use Ki is firstly that the feet don't move and second that you cannot get straight back up ready to continue. When hit this way it totally drains your energy. Just what you have described. :asian:

There was another one he used to do to demonstrate how relaxed he was , and how your arms should have the quality of being a "dead weight".

He would get us to all hold our arms out , and in a very relaxed fashion he would drop his arm down on our arms.
It looked like nothing, but when you felt it , it felt like his whole bodyweight had transferred down to his arm and you had a tremendous weight dropped on your arm.

Again you would experience a bit of nausea and at least one instructor ducked off to the bathroom for a quick spew.