Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.
- Thread starter Kenlee25
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I believe the only way to get punching power in hitting people, is by hitting people. Everything else helps in the mechanics of punching, but the application itself is the only way it ain't a crap shoot. Beside actual field testing, it calls for sparring of all kinds, especially hard sparring against those that are on a level you wish to reach.
I don't think it's a matter of preferring open hand because punching might damage something. I teach a technique from CMA called "cotton fist". The hand is relaxed but when it hits the torso it has a kick like a mule because the weight of your body and the weight of your arm is behind it. Because the arm is relaxed, it is also fast. Anyone who has trained with Taira Sensei from Okinawa will know that his hand is relaxed until the last fraction of a second to make the most of the energy generated from the hips. His punches are awesome. We practice 'heavy hands' and broken timing which produces very effective open hand techniques.
Sparring gives the opportunity to test all our skills and certainly when it comes to strikes we need to be able to gauge the distance to be able to deliver a technique and feel what it's like to hit hard. Sparring where the punches are pulled doesn't allow that to happen.
Ultimately the choice is a personal preference, as has been seen from the posts so far. I believe punches or open hand can be equally effective if delivered properly. If i had a free shot I might well punch ... might. The OP said 'face' so for me, on balance, I'll stick to the open hand.
Sparring gives the opportunity to test all our skills and certainly when it comes to strikes we need to be able to gauge the distance to be able to deliver a technique and feel what it's like to hit hard. Sparring where the punches are pulled doesn't allow that to happen.
Ultimately the choice is a personal preference, as has been seen from the posts so far. I believe punches or open hand can be equally effective if delivered properly. If i had a free shot I might well punch ... might. The OP said 'face' so for me, on balance, I'll stick to the open hand.
Negative. There was a similar mantra that if you couldn't take a punch to the stomach, do more crunches. It wasn't so much to emphasize doing more push-ups (In an hour you could expect to do as many as 200, in unison. That last part was stressed... or group start-over.) but moreso that if you couldn't do what you intended, you needed to work more at it. A lot of the things said had multiple meanings, both literal and metaphorical.
I agree, but I think this is more useful toward getting your hits IN, as opposed to doing damage. A lot of internal martial artists rarely get to actually effectuate what they've learned, because of great probability of seriously harming your fellow partner... but when the time comes, they certainly know how to execute.
If you want to combine speed with power, in punching, this is important. It gives your hand added torque as well. There is a problem with utilizing this with a palm strike however, though you can mitigate that with rotation of your wrist from the neutral position into the strike. Either way, easier to do with a punch, than a palm I've found.I
I keep my hands open, almost always. It's rare for me to take a closed fist fighting stance. I only close them for a strike to soft tissue area, throat/neck, temple, etc. I also keep my hands open to generate motion. You'd be amazed how much can be generated into a solid push, and the difference it makes in opening the fingers slightly, and creating drag to add to the push.
It's strange, but I've found a lot of martial arts don't utilize the push, but it really, really works when timed correctly.
I follow the rule of thumb, personally, that if I can't break a block of stone with it, chances are I can't a bone. So I don't do it.
Great point. Knuckles cut, and blood is bad press. But, that heavy open hand strike to the side of the head will make you beg for a punch.
If you're above is referring to my above, I may have personalized my response somewhat. In my personal situation, where I said "blood is bad press" I am reflecting on personal situations i might find myself in where literally, the sight of to much blood could be detrimental to my job description. Open hand could produce the same results without all the mess.....
??? Care to elaborate?
I tend to find in a fighting stance that when doing a palm strike, whether it be front arm or back arm, I am not satisfied with the torque generated. Half the palms I've found thrown by me, or others, tend to just be generated by pushing the arm forward, as opposed to any actual strike involving pivoting with the wrist to generate more power. A guard stance in Bagua involves the palm being turned outward, warding, so to generate a torque you'd need to first turn the hand (and palm) toward you as you extend, and then once reaching, twist the hand immediately to generate what I'd like to call extra *oomph* to your blow.
A lot of my blocks are also strikes, and I do a lot of warding with my elbows... so generally generating torque isn't a problem for me, but I've found it easier to do with a closed hand, if just because I'm more used to aligning my hand in that fashion, than I am with the palm already open.
I've been trained largely in closed fists, so re-orienting to an open-hand is a bit of a difficult for me to reorient my natural view of. However, I've switched from closed to open hand as much for practical reasons... as medical. I was a damned fool earlier in life and hit my fist against a lot of things I shouldn't. At 22 I'm already paying the price... but I suppose brutalizing a hand in some aspect might be worth sacrificing to learn patience and self-restraint. I've got a friend not much younger who's constantly breaking things.
But I digress.
I think no matter what strike you do, you need a pivot on the wrist to generate the torque to get a good strong blow in.
A lot of my blocks are also strikes, and I do a lot of warding with my elbows... so generally generating torque isn't a problem for me, but I've found it easier to do with a closed hand, if just because I'm more used to aligning my hand in that fashion, than I am with the palm already open.
I've been trained largely in closed fists, so re-orienting to an open-hand is a bit of a difficult for me to reorient my natural view of. However, I've switched from closed to open hand as much for practical reasons... as medical. I was a damned fool earlier in life and hit my fist against a lot of things I shouldn't. At 22 I'm already paying the price... but I suppose brutalizing a hand in some aspect might be worth sacrificing to learn patience and self-restraint. I've got a friend not much younger who's constantly breaking things.
But I digress.
I think no matter what strike you do, you need a pivot on the wrist to generate the torque to get a good strong blow in.
Sorry Mate. Just my bad use of the English language. What I meant was, Bill was saying if you had the right formation of the fist, then you wouldn't damage your hand by punching a hard target. My response was meant to convey my feeling that I could use either but my preference was for an open hand.
Biggest problem with a punch to the head is if the opponent ducks and you hit a thick part of the skull you can quite easily fracture a knuckle. I've seen enough of those among my friends to know I don't want one. :asian:
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Most of my open hand strikes involve 'heavy hands'. As such a pivot of the wrist requires tension in the arm that would probably reduce the effectiveness of the strike by at least 50 percent. Even the small amount of bagua I have studied from Erle Montaigue was more of an explosion of raw energy than a pivot generating torque.
And this tells me this teacher didn't know what he was talking about, because pushups have nothing to do with putting someone down with 1 strike. Interestingly enough, at a Arnis seminar a number of years back, my teacher had brought in a few other guys toteach as well. One of them was Will Higginbotham. He was expanding on our use of certain strikes in Arnis, fine tuning them, to sure where certain pressure points are. Obviously hitting those will result in a KO. He needed an uke for this segment, so I joined him. Lightly tapped a few spots at the same time...notice I said lightly tapped....and the lights started going out. These weren't hard hits by any means, but it proves my point...that its the location of the hit, not how hard you hit.
But lets not turn this thread into another one about you. We're talking about punches vs open hand strikes.
You said you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu. We do not throw a torqued punch, we throw a straight punch with a vertical fist. It's quite powerful and requires no 'torque'. So I'm not sure why you think torque is required in punch with either palm or fist. Kicks are powerful, do you torque them?
Torque does not increase 'oomph'. And if it did, that would be a shame, since that would mean that a torqued punch would generate less power if it hit its target before the complete torqued turn had been completed.
I disagree. My sensei has demonstrated (on me) a number of incredibly hard open-hand palm strikes, in a variety of configurations, without twisting or pivoting the wrist at all. A palm strike can be delivered with great force to the hips or other balance points, the ribs, the side of the face, and the major internal organs without any need for any of these strange torquing movements of which you speak. If you had been hit by one, you would drop that line of reasoning quickly, as you'd see it is completely untrue.
As you know, I was joking with my insistence that everyone punch the Isshin-Ryu way. However, there are a variety of fist formations, and some of them are quite safe (for the puncher) to hit with. I've used the 'old man fist' (which is not Isshin-Ryu, by the way) and it does work. It feels a bit odd to make a fist that way, but I do find it lets me hit harder without the otherwise-required slight downward angle of Ishhin-Ryu fist. By the way, the Isshin-Ryu vertical fist does tend to stabilize the wrist; that thumb on top pressing down does it for some reason I don't quite understand.
I've always felt horses for courses. There are times when one is preferable to the other. They are neither the same nor are they interchangeable.
If I have to defend myself, I am not concerned with the harm I do the person trying to harm me. Mess with the bull, you get the horns.
What? I don't even know what that means.
There would be no need to torque kicks, the already receive the energy necessary from manipulating how one bends their knees, and following the momentum. Torque CAN inhibit a strike if you torque into the direction you are striking in. If you torque into the direction of your strike, it can add energy. In my understanding, and execution of the party-trick one inch punch, the torque of the wrist is enough to move the other.
[/QUOTE]Torque does not increase 'oomph'. And if it did, that would be a shame, since that would mean that a torqued punch would generate less power if it hit its target before the complete torqued turn had been completed.[/QUOTE]
It is a short torque I seek when utilizing the movement, and adding it to where I already intend to strike. If you over-torque and go too far you'll not only have a conflict of forces, ull completely redirect the energy you're intending to impact. In short, you can deflect your own strike.
Not untrue. Many martial styles make more use of the hip to generate force as opposed to those which emphasize wrist, or elbow maneuvers. But at that point it is the hips doing exactly what my wrist does... and I also use my hips when I strike. You need to whole body behind your fist, from the wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder, to the head orientation, to the back alignment, to the hips, knees, and ankles.
Absolutely. But in my experience, when I punch, I could also palm. However, I wouldn't switch techniques, like say go for a punch and then go for a palm. Though, that being said, there is a hand drill I enjoy where you spear-hand, punch, then palm. It's to emphasize minimalism, and that if when throwing one technique, it allows for another, take it.
I would concur, it is location over force. But force is integral if those vitals are not opened much. What will you do when you finally fight someone who you can't hit in the vitals, and your blows haven't been developed to carve them up. When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm.
But that only works if you develop the force of your strike, and to us, we used any reason to develop arm strength. When we did our push-ups it was only on the front knuckles or on finger-tips, with legs crossed and backs flat. I have to say that I noticed a strong correlation between those who could crank them out the fastest, and the heaviest hitters using the arms. Which frankly, given your statement of my teacher not knowing what he spoke of, makes me think you in turn do not.
[/QUOTE]But lets not turn this thread into another one about you. We're talking about punches vs open hand strikes.
[/QUOTE]I agree.
For Bagua, it depends on the style. Some forms are anticipatory, while others are reactive. The Yin style, and lion style I studied are both like your experience, but I can think of several I have witnessed which don't have any respective 'explosive' power.
Your understanding is incorrect. The entire system of Isshin-Ryu uses no torquing punches - intentionally. The founder experimented with them briefly after being pressured by other masters on Okinawa, but returned to the fist formation and punching method he developed for his system. No one - and I mean no one - accuses Isshin-Ryu karateka of not punching hard.
And we can also throw a one-inch punch with great power. No torque required. The hip, the knees, the back, and the shoulders all contribute to good body mechanics, which increase leverage to deliver a powerful punch. Twisting the fist at the point of impact does not impart power to the forward momentum of the punch. A drill bit turning does not increase the downward pressure applied by the drill.
The only punch we throw in which the fist turns is the uppercut, and that is not a 'torque' but rather a block incorporated into a punch. Which you would know if you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu as you claimed.
Torque.
What is Torque?
Once again, words matter. You're trying to describe the turning of the hand in a twisting punch. That's not torque. Torque DOES figure into a punch; depending on your methodology, torque generated in the hips and shoulders is transferred through the hand to your target. You can do that with a palm, a kick (no shoulders, though), or a fist.
There are pros & cons to palm strikes, many of which have already been discussed. Learn to use the appropriate weapon at the appropriate target at the appropriate time.
What is Torque?
Once again, words matter. You're trying to describe the turning of the hand in a twisting punch. That's not torque. Torque DOES figure into a punch; depending on your methodology, torque generated in the hips and shoulders is transferred through the hand to your target. You can do that with a palm, a kick (no shoulders, though
), or a fist.There are pros & cons to palm strikes, many of which have already been discussed. Learn to use the appropriate weapon at the appropriate target at the appropriate time.
I'm not talking about Isshin-Ryu, I'm speaking about my own, such as Tang Soo Do, and Bagua. Not sure where I accused your style of that, be careful not to strawman, as I think you are right here.
[/QUOTE]And we can also throw a one-inch punch with great power. No torque required. The hip, the knees, the back, and the shoulders all contribute to good body mechanics, which increase leverage to deliver a powerful punch. Twisting the fist at the point of impact does not impart power to the forward momentum of the punch. A drill bit turning does not increase the downward pressure applied by the drill.[/QUOTE]
Anyone can throw it. It's a party trick. I was giving an example where torque generate great power with low cost. It does not add force, it directs it, which is even more important than adding force.
It would though, if it turns with as much as the drill, or re-directed the drill's momentum. You forget it is not just a punch, the body moves with it. The drill is not just at the wall, it is also being pushed into it. It's a factor which is imperative to not neglect.
[/QUOTE]The only punch we throw in which the fist turns is the uppercut, and that is not a 'torque' but rather a block incorporated into a punch. Which you would know if you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu as you claimed.[/QUOTE]
Yes I am aware. And in shotokan there are many punches which are executed where they do turn their hand, as opposed to push it forward. I am not talking about Isshin Ryu, and haven't been. Your style does X, mine does Y, hence why I'm not getting into the mechanics of your style, but my own.
I don't think anyone can say any karate system hits 'softly'.
No, no. And if I have said that I retract it and apologize for not wording something to that gross of a degree. I am speaking of turning the hand with a palm strike, and that certainly is torque.
That's not torque. Torque DOES figure into a punch; depending on your methodology, torque generated in the hips and shoulders is transferred through the hand to your target. You can do that with a palm, a kick (no shoulders, though
Agreed.
[head explodes]
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