That's why you shouldn't punch someone in the mouth.
Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.
- Thread starter Kenlee25
- Start date
That's why you shouldn't punch someone in the mouth.
I haven't read through all nine pages, so this may already have been addressed. If not, here goes. From a SD perspective, an open hand strike to the face is preferable;
- Closed hand runs the risk of self injury i.e. boxers fracture. This will limit options concerning manual dexterity i.e. operating a cell phone to call for help, accessing and operating a firearm (both in firing, loading, reloading and clearing a malfunction), using a concealed or improvised weapon or something as 'simple' as using keys to lock a door or start a car. In short, it limits SD options depending upon the severity of the self injury.
- An open wound i.e. cutting your knuckles on their teeth/bone structure now opens you up to blood borne pathogen.
- You limit your strength and reaction time with a closed fist.
You know what a boxers fracture means to me? You don't know how to punch. A properly delivered punch is unlikely to fracture the carpals. The risk of fracturing the navicular with a palm strike is the same, or as close as makes no difference.
Identical risk exists with open hand strikes.
Huh? This sentence no sense makes.
I don't agree. Professional boxers, even with their hands taped and wearing gloves can break their hand in various ways. You can toss in hyper-extending your wrist as well. One can know how to punch correctly and still cause self injury because they have no control of the movement of the attacker. Too many variables and just isn't a prudent choice. Many martial artists 'think' they know how to punch properly but they don't. Any punch that takes our hand out of a neutral alignment position is incorrect and increases the chance of self injury.
A palm heel strike is less likely to cause self injury which is why WWII combatives, L.E., corrections etc teach it as a preference to a closed fist. A closed fist can be useful to other areas of the body, but the head isn't one of them.
Not really. Whereas the target area of a typical punch is the nose, mouth or side of the head (which may or may not be the point of actual impact due to the head being a small moving target) the palm heel, or chin jab is more likely to connect with the actual target as it comes in from a lower angle which is harder to detect and defend against. And usually one is closer when delivering such a strike which again lessens the reaction time of the attacker.
Yes, it does. Tony Blauer does an excellent job of demonstrating this in his S.P.E.A.R. seminars as well as Ken Good and the late Peter Boatman. All are (were) noted LEO and military instructors. The range of motion increases when the fingers are extended, one example being a vertical or horizontal elbow strike. Closing the fist limits this range of motion. ROM can and does effect speed and strength of a strike. Closing the fist contracts certain muscles which also effects speed. Doesn't mean you go into slow motion when you clench your fist, but it does contract muscles in the arm. The JAMA had an excellent article many years ago on this topic. I can't quote off the top of my head the statistics, but the striking power of a punch vs. an open hand strike (palm heel/chin jab) was measured and the open hand was quite a bit more powerful. If I have the opportunity I'll try to dig up the article and quote the information.
In short, LE does teach closed fist strikes to certain areas, the head is not one of them except for reactionary strikes. I can't speak for all LE training, but I have trained at a regional training center that covers quite a bit of territory and multiple agencies.
Punch to the head if you like, it isn't a prudent idea on many levels.
Im hoping someone with experience like KSD will chime in but I have stumbled across another problem with closed fist punching to the face. Here is a post I made on this very subject on another forum. Ill copy and paste it here..
This is honestly a conundrum I never thought I would be thinking about. After all, boxing is my base and punching things in the face is second nature for me. At least I thought it was. Then one day I was doing some random practice and punched a target that would represent someone in the 6foot+ range of height. Me being all of 5'8".
That is when I noticed that, I don't know nearly enough about wrist alignment and knuckle alignment and angle of impact with regards to bare knuckle punching.
Boxing gloves, take away the knuckles and turns the whole hand into the punching surface. Removing the knuckles from the process.
Punching things at my jaw height and lower no problem finding the correct knuckles. Anything above that was and is problematic. For starters, say my target is high up, around 6foot or taller, I have to punch up. During the proper fist, I find that the joints that my thumb wraps around impact first. Which is HORRIDLY bad and a cause for broken hand and fingers.
First thing I tried was leveling my fist with my forearm. That helped to a point, but as height increased, I found the bend in my wrist to get quite extreme, to the end of its mobility. This makes that a weak position and would likely break the wrist.
I have tried the odd vertical punch my coach suggested, were instead of the last 3 knuckles like in WC, you use the first 2 like normal. It 2 requires a bend in the wrist. Coach feels it is a safer bet then a normal horizontal punch.
Now all this was predicated on the fact that my targets are not tilting downward but at flat plain. Picture a face not looking down, or chin tucked like boxers recommend, but straight out. In that situation I cant find a suitable method of punching that will suffice. Hard to train face punching out of a boxer...
Things change if the target is at a angle downwards, makes it so that its easier for the correct knuckles to encounter their target.
I welcome advice. I hope my journey so far helps someone. This was just food for thought for all here. You need to practice walk through slow touch contact punching on a taller, significantly taller target then you. So you can figure out the correct way for you to hit him in the face with out screwing up your lower finger joints. Which is were im finding my punches impacting on a flat surface.
I just hope this helps someone, and gives the decidedly very experienced people here something to think and teach on.
My teacher suggest to use palm strikes, feel unnatural to me, and the odd vertical fist for high up punching. He also suggests not punching up that way at all.
Im sure with time ill figure it out, but as I said earlier, suggestions and advice are welcome.
This is honestly a conundrum I never thought I would be thinking about. After all, boxing is my base and punching things in the face is second nature for me. At least I thought it was. Then one day I was doing some random practice and punched a target that would represent someone in the 6foot+ range of height. Me being all of 5'8".
That is when I noticed that, I don't know nearly enough about wrist alignment and knuckle alignment and angle of impact with regards to bare knuckle punching.
Boxing gloves, take away the knuckles and turns the whole hand into the punching surface. Removing the knuckles from the process.
Punching things at my jaw height and lower no problem finding the correct knuckles. Anything above that was and is problematic. For starters, say my target is high up, around 6foot or taller, I have to punch up. During the proper fist, I find that the joints that my thumb wraps around impact first. Which is HORRIDLY bad and a cause for broken hand and fingers.
First thing I tried was leveling my fist with my forearm. That helped to a point, but as height increased, I found the bend in my wrist to get quite extreme, to the end of its mobility. This makes that a weak position and would likely break the wrist.
I have tried the odd vertical punch my coach suggested, were instead of the last 3 knuckles like in WC, you use the first 2 like normal. It 2 requires a bend in the wrist. Coach feels it is a safer bet then a normal horizontal punch.
Now all this was predicated on the fact that my targets are not tilting downward but at flat plain. Picture a face not looking down, or chin tucked like boxers recommend, but straight out. In that situation I cant find a suitable method of punching that will suffice. Hard to train face punching out of a boxer...
Things change if the target is at a angle downwards, makes it so that its easier for the correct knuckles to encounter their target.
I welcome advice. I hope my journey so far helps someone. This was just food for thought for all here. You need to practice walk through slow touch contact punching on a taller, significantly taller target then you. So you can figure out the correct way for you to hit him in the face with out screwing up your lower finger joints. Which is were im finding my punches impacting on a flat surface.
I just hope this helps someone, and gives the decidedly very experienced people here something to think and teach on.
My teacher suggest to use palm strikes, feel unnatural to me, and the odd vertical fist for high up punching. He also suggests not punching up that way at all.
Im sure with time ill figure it out, but as I said earlier, suggestions and advice are welcome.
True but they do have control over their conditioning, accuracy and precision.
A punch can be used as a chin jab and an uppercut comes in from a lower angle which is harder to detect and defend against too.
I have never seen, experienced or even heard of the range of motion for an elbow strike being affected in any way by the fist being open or closed. Keeping the fingers open lessens the amount of tension that can be applied to the forearm as a whole.
You can clench your fist without applying much tension until you hit your target, that is correct punching technique for many arts.
grumpywolfman
Black Belt
I totally agree with your instructor. It's easy to recognize this by standing facing a wall. Hold out a horizontal fist at your face level or higher against the wall without bending your wrist. As you noted earlier, it will be the finger joints that contact first NOT your knuckles. Slide your horizontal fist down the wall while maintaining proper wrist alignment to where your knuckles now hit comfortably, and you will see that at about your solar plexus level the knuckles finally make contact. Now try this same process with a vertical punch. You will notice that you can now get full contact with the fist at head height. Now try doing some palm strikes against the wall. Not so bad huh? Now try a horizontal fist - ouch right? Now try a vertical fist - much better than then the horizontal fist, but still not as much force or body weight can be transferred into as a palm strike. However, using the Wing Chun vertical punching and applying an understanding of the importance of the connection between relaxing and continuity (Chi) - with practice, you could be able to even chain punch against a solid object without breaking your hands (of course I don't recommend this); because its about transfer of energy not "hitting" with your hands with brute force.
Continuity is important in this concept - where the "kink" in the hose is so to speak, or tension in the body - then that is where the energy will exit. For example, even if a person has good contact with the fist to a solid object (a skull) and the wrist is out of alignment, its possible that he could fracture more than one of the metacarpals on impact. Hold a ruler on top of your fist. Direct your fist downward, and you will notice the ruler lift off the wrist and forearm - this is the path that the energy will exit your body. I know, because I've learned these things the hard way. Palm strikes to the head have much less chance of damaging your hands because you are bypassing all of these other small bones and joints. Another bonus of palm strikes to the face is that your fingers have the potential of coming in contact with your opponent's eyes.
It takes great skill and self discipline to maintain calm for proper structure and continuity under real-life stressed situations. It is much easier in my opinion, to stick to gross body movements and simple strikes that require less dedication to master. I recommend using palm strikes, knife hand, or hammer fist for strikes to the head, neck, and clavicles. And using closed fists for the lower body for strikes to targets such as the liver, kidneys, or solar plexus.
Koshiki
Brown Belt
FullPotentialMA
White Belt
Although prominent in many martial arts today, punches are relatively "new" in them being the "prominent" strike. There are many reasons why punches, especially straight punches, are not a good fit for striking the opponent's face. If you think about it, the human face is shaped a little like a plow -- the sides of the face are angled backwards. A punch is very likely to "skim" the face, and although it will generate some damage, it is not "optimal". An open palm is more versatile, and "conforms" better to the shape of the human face.
Also, for beginners, making a good fist (with proper alignment of the wrist) is not easy. At our martial arts studio in San Diego, we recommend that beginners use open hand strikes until they master the punch.
Also, for beginners, making a good fist (with proper alignment of the wrist) is not easy. At our martial arts studio in San Diego, we recommend that beginners use open hand strikes until they master the punch.
Yes, the same can be said for any body part used as a striking surface i.e. the shin. A lot of MA's kick with the impact point of their bodies being the top of the foot or instep. No a good idea and can cause self-injury. Conditioning your shins however brings the kick to a new level of damage-infliction potential.
Agreed, and I would say it is a higher % punch as well. Though one still needs to be concerned with an element of self-injury.
Many martial arts don't teach an open hand while delivering an elbow strike, unfortunately. Keeping the hand open, whether vertical or horizontal will allow a greater ROM and allow an elbow strike even if your just a couple of inches away from your attacker i.e. you're in the clinch and/or nose-to-nose. Basically, where the flattened hand goes the elbow will follow. It is the preferred method of elbow striking used by our (and other) agencies and has proven out extremely effective in uses-of-force. The most graphic for this discussion was two elbow strikes delivered by a Deputy to a EDP bad guy while inside his own cruiser while on top of the EDP cross-ways across the seats. This is like fighting in a phone booth on its side.
Saved his life.
In the art I study the most common striking area for a turning (roundhouse) kick is the ball of the foot, we only use the instep to the legs or if the target is at a 90 degree angle and the shins if we are a bit closer to the target.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Sadly, you don't know the history of boxing particularly well. don't feel bad, most people who make such observations don't either.
How familiar are you with WWII Combatives manuals? There's plenty of closed fist stuff in them.
You also lose 4" of reach as opposed to the closed fist.
Or, you know, learn to work with your body's natural reaction, and learn how to punch without injuring yourself.
Here's an article which might help:
http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
And another article from here on site: Palmheel or Fist? A New Insight (HARD WIRING AND PALM STRIKES by Mark Hatmaker 2004).
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk, I'm afraid you're lacking in the history of boxing as well, including bare knuckle boxing which incidentally has little to do with practical self defense. The reality is that even professional boxers injure their hands in and out of the ring. That's just a fact. Taped and gloved in the ring or bare in a bar fight, they've injured themselves. From a self defense perspective, the gist of the thread, a punch isn't prudent for the reasons I've listed. Professionals in the SD community don't generally advocate closed fist punches to the head, again for all the reasons I've listed. So you have examples from the sport community why it isn't a good idea for SD, you have examples from the professional community why it isn't a good idea for SD.
I'm very familiar with them. I don't think you are though. And punches aren't to the head generally. Soldiers wear helmets, yet another reason to not punch to the head. That is why the chin jab is THE premier head strike as proliferated by Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neill, Nelson, Cestari etc.
This is the opposite of reality. ROM is gained, thus reach with an open hand.
Again, the opposite of reality. The bodies natural reaction is not with a closed fist. Flinch response consistently demonstrates upraised arms with an open hand.
And your statement of 'learn to punch without injuring yourself' is a fallacy. Tell that to all the boxers and martial artists that injured themselves by punching someone in the head. One cannot control the circumstances involved in a chaotic, realworld fight. We're not talking about dojo/dojang training that lacks realistic application. We're talking about real world, practical self defense.
Open hand strikes lack many of the dangers of a closed fist to the head while demonstrating benefits that the closed fist to the head cannot equal.
With no offense intended, I would challenge your credibility with real world altercations, both successful and unsuccessful over the spectrum of users to include military, LE, corrections, EP agents, corporate security, bouncers (professional) and private citizens who have actually used their training against real, determined, resisting attackers.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Damn. Then you should probably warn my students that I'm a fraud, 'cuz they think I've been personally studying and teaching pre-Marquis of Queensberry style boxing (particularly Broughton era) for years. You should also tell all of the antique boxing manuals that I've republished that I didn't actually read (or republish) them. You should also warn all of the folks such as noted HEMA instructor Terry Brown, noted British Karateka Iain Abernethy, or noted HEMA instructor and stage combat specialist Tony Wolf (martial arts designer from Jackson's "Lord of the Rings"), that I'm a fraud because they've all endorsed the book I wrote on grappling in historic pugilism.
Which is why every last damn book written on the topic, pre-MoQ, has a section on how boxing is crap for self defense. Oh, wait, the other thing. They all talk about how boxing is great for self defense. In fact, many of them call boxing "The Science of Self Defense" and similar names.
Translation: I didn't actually read the article that Kirk posted entitled, "Won't You Break Your Hand?" written by western martial artist and M.D., Keith Myers.
I've only read maybe 30 or 50 of them, personally republished one, and only managed to study with 2 or 3 of the guys in their direct lineage.
Cestari was an advocate of the edge-of-hand blow not palm-heal and he liked closed fist strikes too, particularly the backfist (ask me how I know. hint, it involves some of his direct students and I). Fairbairn & Co. wrote extensively about the "convulsive" grip and how, under stress, the soldier frequently reverts to that instinctively; very important to their handgun and knife methods.
Did you really just claim that a palm-heal has greater reach than a fist?!?!
Both the CQC instructors you've referenced disagree with you (when they discuss the convulsive grip) and science (re: the Moro Reflex) as well as even primate studies. Did you not look at the Hatmaker article?
Because 300 years of European Bare Knuckle Boxing, 600 years of Okinawan Karate, and 1,000+ years of Chinese fighting ares are all just wrong.
I frequently do. "Learn how to punch without having your fist and wrist supported by wraps."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20790294
My day job is on Wright-Patterson AFB. Guess what profession most of my students hail from? I also get to train with cops and correctional officers regularly too.
No offense intended, but maybe you should challenge your preconceptions about palm heal and fist and, in particular, whether or not someone who disagrees with you automatically lacks "credibility."
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Kirk, in your last few posts you have given me like a weeks worth of items to study. I personally don't know which to believe but I do have a anecdotal story. My personal friend is 62years old. He has 2 golden gloves and has a record of 75 wins 25 losses. He has been in 4 street altercations and came out on top handily. One of those was against a guy 75lbs bigger then him and taller. I asked him how many times he broke his hand in all his non gloved fights and he told me none, and never hand a problem with his hand either.
My guess is, you may have a point about wrist alignment and proper punching technique, evidenced by my still worthy opponent and friend. He told me he kept his shots to the nose and center face area and only jabbed. He spent most of his power shots on body shots, liver and solar plexus shots.
I don't know what the truth is, but I bet it lies in the middle. I think that any martial artist needs to do bone conditioning. It isn't fool proof, but it does give a little margin of error.
My guess is, you may have a point about wrist alignment and proper punching technique, evidenced by my still worthy opponent and friend. He told me he kept his shots to the nose and center face area and only jabbed. He spent most of his power shots on body shots, liver and solar plexus shots.
I don't know what the truth is, but I bet it lies in the middle. I think that any martial artist needs to do bone conditioning. It isn't fool proof, but it does give a little margin of error.
I think you're getting yourself worked up here Kirk. No one has called you a fraud. But yes, I do question your credibility on this particular topic. Reading and republishing books is commendable, I'm very happy for you. That doesn't make you credible in this area. Working on an Air Force base is commendable, thank you for your service. I was stationed at both Incirlik AB and McGuire AFB in the 80's and taught martial arts on both. That doesn't make you credible in this area. The fact that you may teach L.E. and corrections is commendable, but doesn't make you credible in this area. Absolutely no offense intended despite you taking obvious offense. Teaching L.E. and corrections doesn't make you familiar with all of their needs. And unfortunately L.E. and corrections is often times easily 'wowed' with martial arts and blindly accepts everything at face value. Case in point, Royce Gracie has taught at our regional training center which services a plethora of agencies in our state (as well as out-of-state). In the beginning everyone was 'wowed' cause BJJ was the flavor of the month. And of course what happens in the octagon is a good indicator of self-defense right? Wrong. He very soon after had to greatly modify what he taught because most of what he taught was useless...or dangerous for officers. Great in a controlled environment, lousy in real life.
So I'm not saying you suck or you're a fraud and you shouldn't take what I'm saying as such. But teaching a closed fist punch to the head for self defense is frankly not a good thing. Not even a little bit.
I'm glad you've trained with some in WWII circles, you aren't the only one. But I think you've viewed the teaching through the wrong glass. Punching the head in a controlled environment is just dandy. Doing so in real life is bad teaching/training. If that pisses you off then so be it. Not meant to be in your face, but it is what it is. I DO the job as well as TEACH the job not just read books (which I do as well). Learning to punch without injuring yourself is fine and dandy...till something happens and you bust your hand up cause things didn't go like it did in the school. Real life is funny like that.
Funny, I've cited more than two and no, they didn't disagree with me. Their teachings influenced my opinion on the topic. And of the two of us...I know them personally and you don't.
In case you aren't aware, the EOH is an open hand strike which falls under the topic of the thread. He was also very BIG on the chin jab just like Nelson. (hint...ask me how I know that. Oh, I'll tell you anyway, I've talked with a LOT of people that knew both including Nelson's daughter who was a member of my board).
Bottom line is this, you continue to punch to the head. Continue to do it (assuming that you've actually fought real world determined attackers on multiple occasions and not just in a school) until the unexpected happens and you bust up your hand and aren't able to access your firearm (assuming you carry one for a living) or your intermediate weapons (assuming you carry them for a living) or access your radio for back up (assuming you carry one for a living) or any other tool that an officer or for that matter a civilian may need to utilize under duress in a crisis situation. Let me know how it works out for you then. Oh, I forgot that it isn't possible for you to injure your hand.
As for me and the circles I train in, we'll go with what works in real life and doesn't open us up to potential self-injury while involved in a chaotic, real world altercation.
Additionally, if you make a close examination of Kill or Get Killed by Applegate or Get Tough by Fairbairn you'll see a distinct lack of closed fist punches. You'll see the chin jab and edge-of-hand strikes. Fairbairn btw was a police officer the same as O'Neill in addition to holding Dan rank. They both also had extensive CMA training.
Nelson and Cestari advocated the chin jab and EOH as well as those that they've directly trained. Again, I have extensive experience with many of these folks, some of which are also 'on the job'.
And finally, the elbow strike is also used extensively by those in SD circles including those I've already cited.
Peace.
Nelson and Cestari advocated the chin jab and EOH as well as those that they've directly trained. Again, I have extensive experience with many of these folks, some of which are also 'on the job'.
And finally, the elbow strike is also used extensively by those in SD circles including those I've already cited.
Peace.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Then you need to re-read what you wrote. Have some third party read it.
Then we have no point of commonality to build upon.
You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with several millennia of fighters who went before.
You misunderstand. 'Both CQC instructors and Science.' The ones 'you mentioned before' are parenthetical to "CQC instructors."
It's open hand? Really? Those pictures of the palm out strait must have lead me astray. ..And yet is not a palm heel.
And did several tapes on dirty boxing.
Nice.
Yup. Only what agrees with your preconceived notions is "real life." Everyone else has never fought and isn't an "operator" like you. Sweet. Thanks for enlightening me.
Good job, man.
This went into the crapper.
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