Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.

[RTKDCMB]

It is of major concern and often times the MA community overlooks this in training. Bad guys are just that...bad guys. And they often spend or have spent time in a correctional facility and/or a mental health care facility. The incident of exposures in these types of facilities are many times higher than 'normal life'. So the bad guy attacking you...does he have HIV? Hep C? TB? It is a little like playing Russian roulette. He could be carrying nothing but a bad attitude. You could pull off a head punch that puts him down and saves the day. But what if he is carrying something that will alter the course of the rest of your life? I've known people in that position and to say it sucks is a little bit of an understatement that people can't fully appreciate unless they've personally experienced it or know those that have. And safer options fortunately exist in training that are just as effective. Nothing is 100% of course, but I try to load the dice in my favor as much and as often as possible.

That is one of the primary reasons we 'punchers' do thousands of knuckle pushups and other knuckle conditioning exercises over the years and build up callouses to reduce the chances of the skin breaking.

 

[Zero]

Thanks Kang Soo - had wondered what "EOH" was - edge of hand, got it.
Agreed. V limited punches in SD - the one time. However, a reasonable amount of out of ring, gloveless fights, for your average Joe that is not a street thug or gypsey bare-knuckle brawler, just an ordinary citizen, as per my immediately previous post to you, when much younger and (let's not say it, dumber). I have thrown the punch weithout gloves enough times to know it is a very effective weapon and that I can throw it without hurting myself at a good percentage - hopefully, hell, bad stuff can happen(!!). I am a pretty experienced fighterbut I have jammed toes and mis-executed and damaged myself from time to time, such is life.
I hear all you are saying and the concern re blood contamination but just don't think I got the ability/inclination to stop focusing on punches and replace with a palm strike - so that it would be automatic (that takes a lot of re-hardwiring!!!). Hopefully (and I mean nothing bad your way) given the line of work you are in and what I do (and the way I now behave) I got a lot less chance of needing to act on the street against another so maybe the percentages game is a lot more important to you when it comes to how you fight and strike...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That is one of the primary reasons we 'punchers' do thousands of knuckle pushups and other knuckle conditioning exercises over the years and build up callouses to reduce the chances of the skin breaking.

All I can tell you is that I've done the same thing. I'll stick with chin jabs, elbow strikes and EOH.

 

[Zero]

RTKDCMB - I know, am embarrassed, am actually very meek, mild, quiet guy. Actually, in all honestly I just co2ked up with the posting skillzz! : )

 

[Zero]

No, a punch is a gross motor skill. The refined motor skill(s) I'm referring to is the 'what comes next'? In a sport venue you don't really need to worry about it. In a SD, you may. An injured hand can and will effect your manual dexterity to the extent of the injury. And manual dexterity may already be compromised due to adrenaline. For example, manipulate/operate a firearm (LEO or private citizen), load, reload or clear a jam. Use a radio or cell phone to call for help. Something as simple as manipulating small objects like keys to effect an escape. These things may seem simple while we're all healthy, well and calm sitting in front of a computer. But we test people routinely in crisis situations when the adrenaline is flowing and you'd be surprised at how difficult some things become. No add in an injury to compound things. Unfortunately, MA's training rarely addresses what a person may go through in a crisis situation. Hitting and kicking a focus pad is nice. Kata training is great. But unless we address other things the student isn't likely to have an awareness of many SD things. That goes bad to the training methodology.

OK, understand what you are saying now. Again, I acknowledge there is a risk of damaging your wrist or knuckles but not so much when trained in gloveless punches and conditioned. I prefer, if possible to keep everything gross motor skilled, pulling triggers aside.

 

[RTKDCMB]

All I can tell you is that I've done the same thing. I'll stick with chin jabs, elbow strikes and EOH.

I like those too.

 

[Koshiki]

Yes, just was not sure what style Zack is coming from and what he is using to take people down.

I'm not really sure what style I'm coming from either, to be honest. It's a "karate club" which calls itself "Taekwondo", but contained mainly Karate formal material, with no Taekwondo material, and has a really strong Chinese background in the movements and training stuff we do. I think I would call it mixed martial arts, were that not already taken by something completely different.

I think Kong Soo Do pretty much covered my responses to the rest of it, probably better than I would have. There really no one way we get people down, but the rare instances where I face-punch tend to be the sort of upright grappling throws, arm bars, etc. that make it an easy thing to follow them down into a deep stance with control of their head, or where you just clumsily end up on the ground on top of someone and go, "oops, I mean, yeah, I *meant* for us to end up here!"

 

[lklawson]

Thanks Kang Soo - had wondered what "EOH" was - edge of hand, got it.

Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles. Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage. The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there? "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm. Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH. Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.

I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles. Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage. The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there? "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm. Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH. Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.

I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Kirk is correct. Fairbairn and Applegate discuss this in their books as well (Get Tough and Kill or Be Killed). I've seen Nelson discuss it in his SD courses as well as Cestari and Damien Ross. Pros and Cons I suppose. It may well tighten the striking edge better as Kirk mentions, but a negative that 'could' be placed on it is snagging the thumb on something and hyper-extending it. I've used it both ways and never had an issue with it personally either way. Both Fairbairn and O'Neill had extensive CMA experience as well as Judo in common but couldn't tell you if this was a result of that training or something of their own design. I can see it either way.

 

[K-man]

Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles. Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage. The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there? "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm. Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH. Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.

I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The Shuto strike, in my experience, is normally delivered with a relaxed arm to utilise the weight of the arm. This gives you the 'heavy hand' effect as you accelerate the whole mass. Sticking out the thumb would add tension to the arm and reduce the 'heavy hand' effect of striking through the target. Same principle in both Goju and Aikido.
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles. Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage. The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there? "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm. Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH. Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.

I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Bending the thumb in a knife hand strike helps to increase the tension on the hand and makes the striking tool stronger at the moment of impact. Bending the thumb helps to lock the wrist and also makes the striking tool stronger, as long as the thumb does not touch the side of the hand, if the thumb touches the side of the hand then the wrist will be slightly weaker.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I just saw a fight firsthand today, one guy started a fight, got hit in the forehead by a single punch and was knocked out while the hitter dd not hurt his hand.

 

[Zero]

I just saw a fight firsthand today, one guy started a fight, got hit in the forehead by a single punch and was knocked out while the hitter dd not hurt his hand.

Yes!! (I mean, how sad to have witnessed humans resorting to physical confrontation) But it does categorically prove I was right all along!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Unfortunately, MA's training rarely addresses what a person may go through in a crisis situation. Hitting and kicking a focus pad is nice. Kata training is great. But unless we address other things the student isn't likely to have an awareness of many SD things. That goes bad to the training methodology.

This has been said before by myself, many others, and possibly you as well. Martial arts are not self defense curriculums, though self defense can be extracted from them. If one wants soley to learn to defend themselves, and in a comparatively brief amount of time, the martial arts are usually not the best tool for the job.