Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.

[clfsean]

Good one. And now that I think about it, let's not forget the basic slap. Very useful for a variety of things, not least of which is ending a fight through humiliation.

Truth enough with that. A nice hard open handed slap across the face is a nice starter or stopper. As a starter you have as much of a psychological pause button as much as a first strike. It's a great way to start things & a great opener. Move it back from the face a smidge & into the jaw/ear area... nice love tap there. Not to mention the concussive impact that the open hand carries...

 

[seasoned]

A slap with focus is much more then a love tap. And as mentioned, it is a great opener with hands up palms out. Not to be underestimated. A slap is with finger tips, a focused open hand strike involves the whole hand.................

 

[mook jong man]

A palm strike can be more powerful than a punch , mainly because there is one less joint for the force to be transmitted through , much like an elbow strike it is closer to the power source.
With the punch there will generally be some leakage of force due to a slight buckling of the wrist on impact.

In Wing Chun palm striking we use a slightly cup shaped hand formation , not only because it fits nicely over chins , jawlines etc but it helps to concentrate the force into a smaller surface area.

We use a few different types of palm strike , the common vertical palm strike , but we also use a side palm , a 45 degree palm , double palm strike , palm up - edge of the hand palm strikes that attack the side of the neck and underneath the side of the jaw.

Also an exotic one called Po Pai , that is a double palm strike with one hand vertical pointing upwards and the other directly beneath it vertically pointing downwards with the force directed slightly away from each other , supposedly designed to spread the organs apart and cause internal damage.
But that is one that requires not only immense force , but also a lot of wrist flexibility due to the bottom palm facing downwards.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A slap with focus is much more then a love tap. And as mentioned, it is a great opener with hands up palms out. Not to be underestimated. A slap is with finger tips, a focused open hand strike involves the whole hand.................

I was also considering the ear ringer (box the ears or one ear) and the open-hand soft-block techniques which hurt like the dickens and absolutely humiliate as well. There's not much more embarrassing for a tough guy, I think, than to have their hardest punches slapped out of the air and in a way which makes their arm numb and useless as well. Also done from a hands-up position. When our sensei is demonstrating, he has his uke throw as hard as possible, like real-life hard and fast, right towards his face. The harder one throws, the more useless one's arm becomes the moment he dead-hands it across the bicep of the incoming punch. Awesome mechanics. I can't quite do it, yet, but it's on my list of objectives, because it is devastating. It's great because it is so clearly defensive and yet at the same time such a fight-ender. You can't fight when you can't life your arm.

 

[clfsean]

A palm strike can be more powerful than a punch , mainly because there is one less joint for the force to be transmitted through , much like an elbow strike it is closer to the power source.
With the punch there will generally be some leakage of force due to a slight buckling of the wrist on impact.

In Wing Chun palm striking we use a slightly cup shaped hand formation , not only because it fits nicely over chins , jawlines etc but it helps to concentrate the force into a smaller surface area.

We use a few different types of palm strike , the common vertical palm strike , but we also use a side palm , a 45 degree palm , double palm strike , palm up - edge of the hand palm strikes that attack the side of the neck and underneath the side of the jaw.

Also an exotic one called Po Pai , that is a double palm strike with one hand vertical pointing upwards and the other directly beneath it vertically pointing downwards with the force directed slightly away from each other , supposedly designed to spread the organs apart and cause internal damage.
But that is one that requires not only immense force , but also a lot of wrist flexibility due to the bottom palm facing downwards.

Yep... We use a couple of additional ones in CLF but all the ones you mentioned we absolutely use. The last one you mention (Po Pai) we dont use to hit with, but we could if we need to. We call it Dip Jeurng (Butterfly Palm).

 

[mook jong man]

Yep... We use a couple of additional ones in CLF but all the ones you mentioned we absolutely use. The last one you mention (Po Pai) we dont use to hit with, but we could if we need to. We call it Dip Jeurng (Butterfly Palm).

In the wooden dummy form here you see pretty much all of them , also the Po Pai that I mentioned.

[video=youtube_share;w0pudWjTNNk]http://youtu.be/w0pudWjTNNk[/video]

 

[MJS]

I was also considering the ear ringer (box the ears or one ear) and the open-hand soft-block techniques which hurt like the dickens and absolutely humiliate as well. There's not much more embarrassing for a tough guy, I think, than to have their hardest punches slapped out of the air and in a way which makes their arm numb and useless as well. Also done from a hands-up position. When our sensei is demonstrating, he has his uke throw as hard as possible, like real-life hard and fast, right towards his face. The harder one throws, the more useless one's arm becomes the moment he dead-hands it across the bicep of the incoming punch. Awesome mechanics. I can't quite do it, yet, but it's on my list of objectives, because it is devastating. It's great because it is so clearly defensive and yet at the same time such a fight-ender. You can't fight when you can't life your arm.

And I"m sure everyone is raising their hand when he asks for an uke..lol. Or if he just calls on someone, they're probably thinking, "Well, there goes the use of my arm for the rest of the night."

But yes, I like the idea of the ear slap.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And I"m sure everyone is raising their hand when he asks for an uke..lol. Or if he just calls on someone, they're probably thinking, "Well, there goes the use of my arm for the rest of the night."

What I especially love is saying "I didn't quite get that sensei, can you show us again?"

But then we get to practice it on each other (a bit less power and speed, but still hard enough to get the general idea), so we all get a taste anyway.

But yes, I like the idea of the ear slap.

That's one of those that you can't practice in the dojo, unfortunately. But it's disorienting as I understand it.

 

[zDom]

Early in my training, I remember preferring the palm strike: I could generate more power that my wrists could stand in punching position while training on heavy bag (unwrapped wrists.. I've never trained heavy bag with supported wrists).

Later, as I trained wrist strength and gained more power through hips and body weight shifting, I found my palm sinking far enough into the bag that it was uncomfortably bending my wrist backward. Since then I have preferred to train punches on the bag as a fist sinks in to the bag with no discomfort.

I am only referring to straight line punching, by the way. And I do regularly train all my striking on a bag — some palm strikes, some knifehands, some ridgehands ... but I like seeing how hard I can hit that bag without my wrists folding.

The best self defense option for you, I think, would be the techniques you feel most comfortable and confident with. But remember that could change with time and training.

 

[Dirty Dog]

God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety...you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist.

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[chinto]

Firstly I'd like to apologize for asking so many questions. I seem to have hit a bit of an inquisitive stage this week.

There are pros and cons to both techniques, for example in the hands of a martial artist who knows how to strike the punch can be quite deadly, but just the same if those fragile knuckles ( assuming one has not endured iron palm training ) collide with the skull, it will cause damage or even break your hand.

Palm strikes are safer but also slower and have less range. That are also unnatural to most people.

Obviously there are situations where one is more effective than the other. For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task.

But what of after? If the fight is prolonged more than those first few seconds of your initial reaction.

One thing I have noticed is that in most forms/katas I have see/performed, punches are usually aimed towards the imaginary enemies torso area. Some go towards the face yes, but the stance and motion of the punch usually is striking towards the body. Does that mean anything?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Both strikes work, if you work the makawara you are much less likely to brake your knuckles or metatarsals. That said, a good palm shot will often and a fight, the Okinawans targeted vitals and ribs more then the head with empty hand as you can fight with a lot of damage to the face and head, ribs brake easier and if you can not breath you can not fight... and well vitals destroyed and your dead. ( ribs were often fatal back in the day before definitive medical care too.) So in answer I would say both are great. a palm to the chin will often end a fight instantly.... so I would say go with what your system teaches till you are say a brown belt or so, but if in a self defense situation, use what ever feels right..

 

[chinto]

Questions are always welcome. And even the most experienced people here ask more than they sit back and pontificate. It`s by bringing these things up for discussion that we all learn more.

That being said, Proper punching technique protects the knuckles during a punch....but proper punching isn`t natural and it has to be trained over a long period so that full power can be delivered into an opponant. Lots of people THINK they`re hitting full power. What they`re doing is using their full EFFORT, but because their technique is poor the impact potential is bled off before it transferrs into the opponant. But this talk isn`t about proper punching, it`s about palms vs fists.
I like both, but I use open hands more often because it`s easier to transission into grabs (which make the next strike more effective) and throws. I`ve never found open hand strikes to be slower than fists, just the opposite. Since my arm is more relaxed with the hand open it travels faster. Yes, the range is slightly less, but not significantly so. And because I`m a bigger guy I usually only use strikes in the first instance of an altercation anyway. After that I close to shorter range and depend on knees, elbows, grappling, and such instead of longe range punching. So the choice of fist or open hand isn`t really an either-or scenario in my opinion.

I do think that some type of regular hand conditioning is a HUGE help with both types of strikes though. Whether it`s as simple as working your strikes on the heavybag, or more traditional hand conditioning meathods. You need to build muscle memory to strike well, you need to create hand-eye-coordination, and learn to read distance to your target so you can strike properly. Of the 3 , I think the last one is the most important part of bagwork, and one very few people ever talk about.

I would also suggest you get some training from a QUALIFIED instructor on how to use a Makawara. That will help harden the bones, increase your focus and really make your alinement on your wrist improve vastly quickly!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Both strikes work, if you work the makawara you are much less likely to brake your knuckles or metatarsals. That said, a good palm shot will often and a fight, the Okinawans targeted vitals and ribs more then the head with empty hand as you can fight with a lot of damage to the face and head, ribs brake easier and if you can not breath you can not fight... and well vitals destroyed and your dead. ( ribs were often fatal back in the day before definitive medical care too.) So in answer I would say both are great. a palm to the chin will often end a fight instantly.... so I would say go with what your system teaches till you are say a brown belt or so, but if in a self defense situation, use what ever feels right..

Metatarsals are in the feet. And if you brake them, there certainly won't be much impact....

 

[seasoned]

Anybody familiar with Tensho (turning palm). Number 7 out of 12 Okinawan GoJu kata. Great kata.

 

[Zenjael]

I've always felt anytime you could punch, a palm strike is just as sufficient. Honestly, I don't think I can break a cinder-block with my fist, but I have a palm. I'd feel safer with the former to keep serious harm from happening to a person... but if necessary I believe a palm can execute far more force in a strike than a fist, because the durability constraints are significantly less.

You have less fear of hurting your hand... but greater of harming the other. Knowing when it is appropriate, and how much force, is to know when to place the strike at its proper place.

 

[Buka]

I know folks who slap similar to a boxing left hook. Their slaps could knock the bejesus out of you. Palms, punches, ridge hands etc, thrown properly, all hurt a whole bunch. I'll bet if all of us here spent a week together in a Dojo, the true power strike of many of us would be completely different. And I don't think that's dependent on what styles we might have studied, I think it comes from what we've all personally developed over a jillion hours of training.

My face has never actually met a strike that it liked. Neither has my body.

 

[seasoned]

Anybody familiar with Tensho (turning palm). Number 7 out of 12 Okinawan GoJu kata. Great kata.

I mention this because it is an advanced kata pertaining to open hand techniques.

 

[seasoned]

I've always felt anytime you could punch, a palm strike is just as sufficient. Honestly, I don't think I can break a cinder-block with my fist, but I have a palm. I'd feel safer with the former to keep serious harm from happening to a person... but if necessary I believe a palm can execute far more force in a strike than a fist, because the durability constraints are significantly less.

You have less fear of hurting your hand... but greater of harming the other. Knowing when it is appropriate, and how much force, is to know when to place the strike at its proper place.

Great point. Knuckles cut, and blood is bad press. But, that heavy open hand strike to the side of the head will make you beg for a punch.

 

[Zenjael]

Great point. Knuckles cut, and blood is bad press. But, that heavy open hand strike to the side of the head will make you beg for a punch.

Execellent point. I believe this is one teacher I said, over and over like a mantra, 'If your punch doesn't put them down in the first strike... you aren't doing enough push-ups.'

I suspect there was a deeper message of, don't escalate unless prepared to.

 

[frank raud]

Execellent point. I believe this is one teacher I said, over and over like a mantra, 'If your punch doesn't put them down in the first strike... you aren't doing enough push-ups.'

I suspect there was a deeper message of, don't escalate unless prepared to.

You develop most of your power in a punch by doing pushups?