Posture & Power II

[KPM]

Hey Geezer,
Yeah that's right. Another thing you can do when the pressure is built up too much is draw them down. Yeah, Robert Chu is someone who I have an interest in. I really liked what he had to say on wingchungeeks. Also like what Alan Orr says. I hear he is in New Zealand now so it would be good to meet him one day. However, from his site it doesn't look like has a wing Chun school as such.

Yes as someone said, a lot of it is simple body mechanics. That said many schools don't put any focus on it.

Alan Orr is in New Zealand and has a Wing Chun school. It is within an MMA gym. But not all of his students are training to be MMA competitors. Some are there just for the Wing Chun. You absolutely should try and pay him a visit. He is a nice guy and very good at Chu Sau Lei WCK.

 

[KPM]

Another good post! We are on a roll!
I agree most lineages do have it. I like Alan Orr's stuff.

What I think is important about dealing with force or energy is, holding pressure is only a temporary thing in combat. It's not a demo. So once contact is made, that's your move. Now it's there move. So the contact is a starting point. That split second of force to force decides what happens next. The energy decides whether I spring compress or redirect. But it's fast. I don't sit there and try and hold the pressure in a fight. The force to force, or point of contact is giving me a reading. At least this is how I look at it. Now there are also other ways or tricks of combining energies at the same time. Like sending in energy at the point of contact that disrupts. But bottom line is, all this compressing, springing, bracing ,bouncing etc is really just timing. It's learning how to feel recognize and execute all at once. The real skill is learning how to condense it down to the smallest and quickest movements possible. And not getting caught up on how much force your stance can hold. It's just Chi Sao!

Good summary Jake! I agree with you. I haven't seen you Chi Sau, so my next comment doesn't necessarily apply to you. Considering everything you said above, when you see someone Chi Sau'ing and it is "all arms" you know they are not doing what you just described. And how many times do we see that? I'm talking about guys doing Chi Sau standing stock still and the only thing really moving is their arms. They throw blazing combinations of movements back and forth and may pivot a bit or even take a small step. But you never see them using that compressing and springing action. They never try to actually affect their partners structure. They only try to hit or parry or trap....all arms.

 

[KPM]

/////////// Can someone from Admin tell us who got banned due to that silly exchange on the other "Posture & Power" thread? That way we can know whether they are ignoring the points in this thread or simply can't respond because they were banned! Thanks! ////////////

 

[Treznor]

Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!".

So... when Mr X gets jumped in the street one dark night, he can only defend himself if the attacker is using Wing Chun!!!

Surely we train to handle any attack, or what's the point of training at all???

 

[geezer]

/////////// Can someone from Admin tell us who got banned due to that silly exchange on the other "Posture & Power" thread? That way we can know whether they are ignoring the points in this thread or simply can't respond because they were banned! Thanks! ////////////

I don't know if this will help. It's an excerpt from a post by Chris Parker on another thread discussing a banned member:

… the only way to check is to try to open the members profile page (not the pop-up). If the member is banned, you get an "Error" message and cannot access the page information.

So if you wonder about anybody in particular, you should be able to go to their profile page and find out.

 

[geezer]

So... when Mr X gets jumped in the street one dark night, he can only defend himself if the attacker is using Wing Chun!!!

Nope. There's a lot of incorrect WC out there. The attacker must be using correct and authentic WC!

 

[Kwan Sau]

Nope. There's a lot of incorrect WC out there. The attacker must be using correct and authentic WC!

and only from the 1840's (if your a certain someone)...and only from the 1700's (if your that other certain someone with a book to sell)...

 

[Jens]

/////////// Can someone from Admin tell us who got banned due to that silly exchange on the other "Posture & Power" thread? That way we can know whether they are ignoring the points in this thread or simply can't respond because they were banned! Thanks! ////////////

How long is the ban for, is it perminent indefinately? or is there a waiting period before they are allowed to post again?

 

[Vajramusti]

How long is the ban for, is it perminent indefinately? or is there a waiting period before they are allowed to post again?

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I don't know and don't particularly care. Its upto the administrators-they have done a good job on this list There are and have been some bad lists on the internet,

 

[geezer]

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I don't know and don't particularly care. Its upto the administrators-they have done a good job on this list There are and have been some bad lists on the internet,

Agreed. IMO Firm and even handed moderation have kept this forum one of the bright spots on the internet. Anybody who used to frequent some of those other WC forums with inadequate moderation knows exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Jake104]

Good summary Jake! I agree with you. I haven't seen you Chi Sau, so my next comment doesn't necessarily apply to you. Considering everything you said above, when you see someone Chi Sau'ing and it is "all arms" you know they are not doing what you just described. And how many times do we see that? I'm talking about guys doing Chi Sau standing stock still and the only thing really moving is their arms. They throw blazing combinations of movements back and forth and may pivot a bit or even take a small step. But you never see them using that compressing and springing action. They never try to actually affect their partners structure. They only try to hit or parry or trap....all arms.

I see that in Chi Sao all the time. I think they are missing the point. In real life that kind of " sticking hands" isn't going to do much. I might eat a punch or two but, what's stopping me from mowing you over with punches of my own? Your not making me stick, your just chasing my limbs. So guess what? I'm going to dis engage and start throwing bombs..I'll sit there and trade with you all day! I hit hard and I can take a hit! My Wing Chun is not the ever so typical chain punch battering ram. I throw full body bricks.

By the way Alan demonstrates this in one of his Youtube vids. He shows how with intent, all those fancy moves don't work. You get steam rolled over. He's absolutely right cause that's real life.

Now wait a minute, I said, "sticking hands" earlier, not, "sticky hands"? Maybe that's just semantics or maybe there is a difference? IMO there is a difference. The latter is using your body mechanics to attach or smother your opponent. It's actually more like "sticky body". Kind of like those sticky spider or scorpion traps my pest guy puts down. Once the little critters walk over it they get stuck and die. That's how I try and do chi sao now.

Funny, cause I have a habit of bumping when I engage. I liked to break there structure with a bump and run them down with punches. My current coach said it best. He said, "I'm to old to be chasing my opponent around"." I want to keep him right here". That's what I meant in the other thread about clamping. He clamps me to the ground so I can't move. It's a weird energy. He breaks my structure and I buckle or he weights a leg. Then usually there's a throw or a face plant on the way. But for me my grappling sucks so, I'm learning to drop my opponent in that spot with chained strikes.

Here's another example of clamping energy. So I like to press with my hips. You see this all the time in Wing Chun. We tuck our hips with a slight thrust? Well FYI, keep your alignment straight cause he folded me over like a lawn chair. He was being nice since I have back issues but point was made! How??? I have no flipping clue? I think push and pull? Either way, this is what it is all about these days for me. Structure and Energies! Sorry for the long boring post!

 

[Jake104]

I try and use chi sao in fighting. It's not just a drill. Just incase I didn't make myself clear in my last long post!

 

[KPM]

By the way Alan demonstrates this in one of his Youtube vids. He shows how with intent, all those fancy moves don't work. You get steam rolled over. He's absolutely right cause that's real life.

---Yep! When you see Alan or his guys Chi Sau'ing, the whole body is engaged. People sometimes accuse Alan of "leaning" on his opponent in Chi Sau. But that's not at all what he is doing. He "loads" or "compresses" his structure by pressing into the opponent. If they offer resistance, them he "releases" that loaded "spring" and uses it is to turn them or otherwise break their structure. He bounces their resistance back to them! If they don't resist, he just steps in and keeps going into their center to break their structure.


The latter is using your body mechanics to attach or smother your opponent. It's actually more like "sticky body". Kind of like those sticky spider or scorpion traps my pest guy puts down. Once the little critters walk over it they get stuck and die. That's how I try and do chi sao now.

---Agreed. If you aren't off-balancing or in some way breaking the opponent's structure, then you've left them in a position to be able to counter you. If someone is rolling well in Chi Sau, then they aren't leaving any openings for attacks. So you can either just throw out some random shots to try and get them to react, or you can challenge their structure to see if it breaks and they leave an opening.


Funny, cause I have a habit of bumping when I engage. I liked to break there structure with a bump and run them down with punches. My current coach said it best. He said, "I'm to old to be chasing my opponent around"." I want to keep him right here".

---Exactly! But that seems to NOT be the typical approach we see in people posting videos.

That's what I meant in the other thread about clamping. He clamps me to the ground so I can't move. It's a weird energy. He breaks my structure and I buckle or he weights a leg. Then usually there's a throw or a face plant on the way. But for me my grappling sucks so, I'm learning to drop my opponent in that spot with chained strikes.


keep your alignment straight cause he folded me over like a lawn chair. He was being nice since I have back issues but point was made! How??? I have no flipping clue?

---Imagine what he would have done if you had your pelvis tucked under and "locked" and was leaning back in your stance! ;-)

 

[JPinAZ]

Where did you think one of the Fa kuen (flower fists) came from in Chi shim weng chun? it was from Mr X's wing chun system.

Heh, there was a reason I didn't actually reply to you previous post. The point wasn't about who is who - which is why I didn't name names and I didn't want to pull focus from the actual point.. If someone only focuses on the small issue of who is who, I think they are missing the point of the story entirely.
FWIW no, Mr X does not teach Fa Kuen and it is not part of their system.

Moving on..

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Alan Orr is in New Zealand and has a Wing Chun school. It is within an MMA gym. But not all of his students are training to be MMA competitors. Some are there just for the Wing Chun. You absolutely should try and pay him a visit. He is a nice guy and very good at Chu Sau Lei WCK.

Thanks for that KPM,

Yep definitely plan on visiting his school at some point.

 

[aatxe]

Where did you think one of the Fa kuen (flower fists) came from in Chi shim weng chun? it was from Mr X's wing chun system.

Hello sorry to dispute this but as somone who practices both Chi Shim Weng Chun and Jiu Wan branch via Francis Fong as well as other arts but Fa kuen( floral fists) and specifically Ping Kuen of the Fa Kuen is from Choy Li Fut, some branches also include Pai Mei Straight step punch but again that is not Weng Chun or Wing Chun

 

[Bkouba]

"Point is, it doesn't matter how much one theorizes, posts online, makes videos, or says people don't understand, aren't doing it right, it's not this or that, this way is the best etc - if they can't even make it work for themselves, the really don't have anything to say. At that point they should probably just shut up and start actually training & pressure testing what they're going on about before they think they can tell others what's right wrong".

JPinAZ, You sir are making too much sense, better cut it out or they will come after you with pitch forks.