Force Flow skill transmission

[Tez3]

It wasn't an attack on you. don't read it that that.

I read it as someone being bad tempered and not reading posts actually, not an attack on me.
anyway there's way more important things happening at the moment that have my attention, Brussels has been attacked and many dead, I have many Belgian friends I have to see if they are alright. So I'll leave you to what is a very petty argument in comparison.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I read it as someone being bad tempered and not reading posts actually, not an attack on me.
anyway there's way more important things happening at the moment that have my attention, Brussels has been attacked and many dead, I have many Belgian friends I have to see if they are alright. So I'll leave you to what is a very petty argument in comparison.

Hope everyone is safe Tez, horrible atrocity

 

[guy b.]

Instead of simply pointing to a timestamp, he uses many copouts like calling us "blind" and "fools" or just saying we can't understand it.

He has never not dodged this question.

Agreed. If there is time for Alan to dismiss the lack of understanding and to issue challenges then there is time to answer a few questions about force flow and what it is training that can be seen in fighting videos from his team

 

[geezer]

Agreed. If there is time for Alan to dismiss the lack of understanding and to issue challenges then there is time to answer a few questions about force flow and what it is training that can be seen in fighting videos from his team

But why would he bother. I haven't seen Philip Bayer on here defending his VT either. Or Emin Boztepe, or Augustine Fong, Hawkins Cheung, or Gary Lamb... Well known people who are busy with instructing and seminars generally don't hang out on forums a lot.

The very fact that we do is probably a pretty good indication that although some of us may be good, but we sure aren't great.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I guess my old school had zero force flow. From what iv seen of CST they have there own way of " force flow" where it does seem a bit more like bouncing people away and producing a ton of power ( I could be mistaken, Wing Chun Auckland could comment on that ). What iv seen of WSL they use there hip and elbow connection with a solid stance and footwork, got structure but I guess that does not count as force flow. Ip chun/Ching/ seem to have zero structure but are very focused on Yiu ma shifting to get power,but my old teacher for that style may have just not been of the best standard like he made us believe. There were bits of sink and rise in that lineage but it wasn't explained properly at all and I dont think the sifu actually had in-depth knowledge about it.

Well yeah. While we don't tend to focus much on fighting aspects, once someone gets to a good level in CST they become pretty powerful. So with the advanced people I have trained with, there is not much you can do to them structurally. You can't move their arms or stance etc. But they can. When they punch through your structure or pull you down, there is a sudden jolt in your spine that feels awful as you buckle a little. At this point, your mind goes blank as you try to recover your balance.

 

[guy b.]

I haven't seen Philip Bayer on here defending his VT either. Or Emin Boztepe, or Augustine Fong, Hawkins Cheung, or Gary Lamb

I haven't seen them advertising their books and videos, or issuing challenge fights either.

 

[Tez3]

But why would he bother. I haven't seen Philip Bayer on here defending his VT either. Or Emin Boztepe, or Augustine Fong, Hawkins Cheung, or Gary Lamb... Well known people who are busy with instructing and seminars generally don't hang out on forums a lot.

The very fact that we do is probably a pretty good indication that although some of us may be good, but we sure aren't great.

Nah some of us are great but retired with kids married and living away from home so we can do what we like when we like.

 

[geezer]

I haven't seen them advertising their books and videos, or issuing challenge fights either.

No, Emin Boztepe would never, ever have issued a challenge to fight.

Now here are some videos for sale by Gary Lam, oh and another by Emin:

Gary Lam Wing Chun DVDs from the Wong Shun Leung Method of Ving Tsun Kung-Fu.
Emin Boztepe - Combat Martial Arts DVD Vol 1 - Punching Techniques

BTW I think you totally played that "challenge" thing. I read Alan's post. An invitation to participate in sparring with some of his guys to check out what they know or can do ....in a school where sparring is a huge part of their daily training... that doesn't sound like a challenge to fight to me.

Guess maybe I'm just naïve.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I haven't seen them advertising their books and

No, Emin Boztepe would never, ever have issued a challenge to fight.

Now here are some videos for sale by Gary Lam, oh and another by Emin:

Gary Lam Wing Chun DVDs from the Wong Shun Leung Method of Ving Tsun Kung-Fu.
Emin Boztepe - Combat Martial Arts DVD Vol 1 - Punching Techniques

BTW I think you totally played that "challenge" thing. I read Alan's post. An invitation to participate in sparring with some of his guys to check out what they know or can do ....in a school where sparring is a huge part of their daily training... that doesn't sound like a challenge to fight to me.

Guess maybe I'm just naïve.

Bang on, it was the offer of a spar, nothing more nothing less. Had he had the mettle to accept and wanted to upgrade the spar to a fight with Peter, I know who my money would have been on...

 

[guy b.]

I read Alan's post. An invitation to participate in sparring with some of his guys to check out what they know or can do

Alan was angry and said that I had insulted Peter Irving by talking about his level as an MMA fighter. In this context an invitation to spar with the person in question is never friendly. It was Alan's choice to take offence in a situation where he could have simply provided information.

It is an example of exactly the logical fallacy highlighted by Mograph in the other thread. You should read that post with unbiased eyes. It is ok to critique a video clip posted on the forum. Doing so doesn't entail an obligation to fight the people involved.

 

[Grenadier]

Admin's Note:

Final warning: Those who fail to discuss things in a civil manner will be hit with warning points that can lead to the suspension or banning of the account.

Just as some advice, if you don't like what someone else has to say, you are certainly welcome to use the "Ignore" feature.

 

[LFJ]

But why would he bother. I haven't seen Philip Bayer on here defending his VT either. Or Emin Boztepe, or Augustine Fong, Hawkins Cheung, or Gary Lamb... Well known people who are busy with instructing and seminars generally don't hang out on forums a lot.

The very fact that we do is probably a pretty good indication that although some of us may be good, but we sure aren't great.

I disagree but I'm not gonna X your post and not say why...

Philipp actually used to be quite active on German language forums. Contrary to your post, people who eat, breathe, and live VT are very enthusiastic about it, and between training they might enjoy discussing it on forums.

So, it's a little silly to think (all) people who post on forums must talk more than they train, or that they can't be great at what they do just because they aren't too high up in the sky to mingle with the normal folk online.

It's also silly to think that if someone doesn't post much on forums it's because they are too busy being well-known and great.

 

[guy b.]

I believe Michael Kurth still posts quite a bit on German language forums.

 

[Tez3]

Alan was angry and said that I had insulted Peter Irving by talking about his level as an MMA fighter. In this context an invitation to spar with the person in question is never friendly. It was Alan's choice to take offence in a situation where he could have simply provided information.

It is an example of exactly the logical fallacy highlighted by Mograph in the other thread. You should read that post with unbiased eyes. It is ok to critique a video clip posted on the forum. Doing so doesn't entail an obligation to fight the people involved.

Where was this posted? I can tell you now categorically that Pete wouldn't turn a spar into a fight and he wouldn't have a fight with someone over something that was said on the internet. Pete is a well known and well respected MMA fighter and now trainer here in the UK if you get a chance to spar with him take it, it won't turn into a fight and you will come away having learnt a lot.

 

[guy b.]

I can tell you now categorically that Pete wouldn't turn a spar into a fight and he wouldn't have a fight with someone over something that was said on the internet. Pete is a well known and well respected MMA fighter and now trainer here in the UK if you get a chance to spar with him take it, it won't turn into a fight and you will come away having learnt a lot.

I would happily train with Peter Irving without Alan Orr's involvement. just as I have done with others in the UK. I am sure that he has a lot of knowledge and experience. Unfortunately this was not what happened.

Read Mograph's post on the other thread for the fallacy inherent in Alan's position. He is creating fuss and avoiding the question for some reason. I have little interest in continuing to ask about something that is never likely to be answered.

 

[Phobius]

Give Alan the benefit of the doubt. Trying to show in hindsight where something exists that is not a technique but rather a thing you train into your every fiber is very hard to do. Especially for older videos when you no longer recall the exact feeling in your body.

My concern is still that Force Flow benefits are undefined. Noone has a clear understanding of what is expected outcome of Force Flow (I mean a better answer than it being a bit better at same thing as what people train today because I am a believer in evolution and do not think people have not already evolved what is so well practised every day)

Best answer I have heard so far is that Force Flow is not about something new, but rather a way to break it into parts that are more easily understood and trained. If so everyone may have what the goal of Force flow is, but not all people have it. Just hoping someone with more insight can confirm this.

 

[Tez3]

I would happily train with Peter Irving without Alan Orr's involvement. just as I have done with others in the UK. I am sure that he has a lot of knowledge and experience. Unfortunately this was not what happened.

Read Mograph's post on the other thread for the fallacy inherent in Alan's position. He is creating fuss and avoiding the question for some reason. I have little interest in continuing to ask about something that is never likely to be answered.

I can arrange for you to train with Ian 'The Machine' Freeman.



I hope you guys know that 'Force Flow' sounds like a sink unblocker.................... ok I'm going now.

 

[guy b.]

I can arrange for you to train with Ian 'The Machine' Freeman.

You seem to want me to get hurt for some reason? Do you also feel that I offended the good name of Peter Irving?

 

[Tez3]

You seem to want me to get hurt for some reason? Do you also feel that I offended the good name of Peter Irving?

ROFL. The Machine can be a pussy cat as long as you don't upset him and Pete can look after his own good name. I do remember Ian's face when he first saw Pete though, it was wtf! Pete was a skinny kid with a spiky Mohican hair cut, tattered jeans with a sort of tartan loincloth over the top. We thought he was having a laugh. He fought Ian Butlin ( amateur fight), lost but Ian has a good background in boxing, he's into promoting bare knuckle fights now. Ian's brother Dave and Andy fought on there too. Gav Bradley who sadly died not long ago fought as did one of our students Chris in the junior kick boxing section who was killed in Afghanistan.
A lot of memories now.

 

[LFJ]

Give Alan the benefit of the doubt. Trying to show in hindsight where something exists that is not a technique but rather a thing you train into your every fiber is very hard to do. Especially for older videos when you no longer recall the exact feeling in your body.

Why do you guys keep ignoring the fact that Alan has demonstrated a visible effect on the opponent's balance by control through the arms?

Just look for the effect on the opponent. That's something easily seen and pointed to in a video if it ever actually happens.

Noone has a clear understanding of what is expected outcome of Force Flow

Alan shows a direct application of affecting the opponent's balance and opening them up for strikes.