Force Flow skill transmission

[Phobius]

Why do you guys keep ignoring the fact that Alan has demonstrated a visible effect on the opponent's balance by control through the arms?

Just look for the effect on the opponent. That's something easily seen and pointed to in a video if it ever actually happens.

Actually no. He has demonstrated and effect in chi-sau context. Have you gotten any confirmation that this is the same effect expected in actual sparring or fighting? I have not heard anything of that sort, assumptions are not my way in this matter.

 

[guy b.]

Pete can look after his own good name

That's what I would have thought.

He fought Ian Butlin ( amateur fight), lost but Ian has a good background in boxing, he's into promoting bare knuckle fights now. Ian's brother Dave and Andy fought on there too. Gav Bradley who sadly died not long ago fought as did one of our students Chris in the junior kick boxing section who was killed in Afghanistan.
A lot of memories now.

Quannum a good place to train

 

[guy b.]

Alan shows a direct application of affecting the opponent's balance and opening them up for strikes.

I am unsure if it is supposed to be applied directly like this in fighting. I think it was KPM who said so.

Alan didn't deny it, and I remember the video clip he showed had him bouncing the girl into the cage. So I would say on balance of probability that it is intended to be used in this way.

 

[LFJ]

He talks about it being directly applicable in unbalancing the opponent and opening them up for strikes. This is exactly what he shows when demoing it gloved up and speaking in context of free fighting.

 

[Tez3]

I remember the video clip he showed had him bouncing the girl into the cage.

that sounds SO wrong!

 

[Phobius]

He talks about it being directly applicable in unbalancing the opponent and opening them up for strikes. This is exactly what he shows when demoing it gloved up and speaking in context of free fighting.

So then what are you asking for? If he demonstrated it already in a video?

IF you want to see it in another video, you first need to know whether or not that other video the same end result can be expected. It might not be that Force Flow only does this, or that this is what Force Flow means but rather be a visible effect in some scenarios of Force Flow.

We need more information before we can even say or request anything.

Good body structure can allow you to bounce people around in training/sparring context. Does not mean this is the expected outcome of body structure but more of an effect of it in a certain training environment.

 

[LFJ]

He says it's directly applicable that way in free fighting.

I just asked where it has happened in any of his team's many fight videos.

A simple timestamp will do if it has ever worked.

 

[geezer]

I disagree but I'm not gonna X your post and not say why...

LFJ, I appreciate your response. I agree that just hitting the "disagree" button does nothing to inform or correct. And I did not know that PB was active on forums... German Language or otherwise.

 

[guy b.]

So then what are you asking for? If he demonstrated it already in a video?

Assuming LFJ is correct about what Alan said regarding applicability to fighting (I can't remember), then it is quite reasonable to ask to see where it has been used in fighting. Alan is demoing it in his clips, not using it in a fight.

 

[geezer]

Assuming LFJ is correct about what Alan said regarding applicability to fighting (I can't remember), then it is quite reasonable to ask to see where it has been used in fighting. Alan is demoing it in his clips, not using it in a fight.

Frankly, it sounds like he doesn't want to be bothered. He's busy and what is said on this forum probably isn't very important to him.

For myself, I see that force flow stuff looking like it would be very applicable as you get in close toward the clinch, and less applicable at a longer range of boxing. Or at least less visible. Just guessing, really.

Anyway, a lot of Alan's sparring clips show his fighter's at that longer range. So you wouldn't expect to see that balance control stuff so much. Doesn't mean it isn't useful. And that's about all you can do with words. To really know what it's about, you have to cross bridges and feel what it's all about. In other words, taking a seminar or meeting up with Alan or some of his better guys.

 

[JPinAZ]

Actually no. He has demonstrated and effect in chi-sau context. Have you gotten any confirmation that this is the same effect expected in actual sparring or fighting? I have not heard anything of that sort, assumptions are not my way in this matter.

Only point I'll make in this mess - if something (anything) doesn't have the same effect in actual sparring or fighting and only works in demo or a fixed/controlled drilling format, then there isn't really much benefit in training it, or promoting it. At that point, you're only selling parlor tricks.

So, if this isn't the case with Alan, the same or similar effects he shows in his controlled demos
should be easily identified in his students' actual fight clips. It should be rather easy for him to point out. Unless he is the only guy this stuff really works for...

* and yes, Alan is pretty active on forums to date, both promoting his art/books/videos, as well as calling people names lol. So it's not that he's 'too busy'. Hopefully he'll chime back in, post up some of the clips where his fighters are doing what he does in the videos and put this to bed..

 

[dudewingchun]

Only point I'll make in this mess - if something (anything) doesn't have the same effect in actual sparring or fighting and only works in demo or a fixed/controlled drilling format, then there isn't really much benefit in training it, or promoting it. At that point, you're only selling parlor tricks.

So, if this isn't the case with Alan, the same or similar effects he shows in his controlled demos
should be easily identified in his students' actual fight clips. It should be rather easy for him to point out. Unless he is the only guy this stuff really works for...

* and yes, Alan is pretty active on forums to date, both promoting his art/books/videos, as well as calling people names lol. So it's not that he's 'too busy'. Hopefully he'll chime back in, post up some of the clips where his fighters are doing what he does in the videos and put this to bed..

The only time he is on is late at night NZ time. He runs a school, is there morning till 8-9 pm, is in the process of changing locations and has a student fighting this weekend. He is busy.

I can see the stuff hes teaching when I watch the fights. I dont expect to be able to bounce around people who train to fight, but it gives me a good advantage in the clinch especially, even offsetting someone a little bit with force flow stuff opens up opportunities to strike or get better positioning,when you are able to adjust to minute changes in pressure and redirect force in the position, it helps, you can control the clinch, for people who are training for mma this is perfect when against the cage also. Ale in her fight pretty much controlled the girl in the clinch the whole fight and she won.

What are you guys looking for ? as soon as one of his fighters touch there opponents they are going to be flying away ?

Please link me to videos of all your guys live demos and fights that show all your stuff ?? I guess I wont get any links because there are none. The VT guys have zero apart from PB doing chi sao against his own students and shawn obasi. The Michael Kurth videos are good, but he is obviously training with someone who does VT aswell.

The only person im aware of who trains fighters apart from Alan is that Mark Hobbs guy from Lun Gai wing chun at KFA.

Im also going to take leave from this forum. Joined to learn more about different lineages, I have achieved that goal and dont need to learn much more. Just politics now.. everything wing chun whether it be this forum or the facebook forum ends up been petty arguments. Especially the facebook one. A bunch of grown men who practice a fighting art, arguing like high school kids and then when fighting( which we practice our art for hours & hours for) actually gets brought up they make a big deal about it like its the last thing they want to do ?

 

[SaulGoodman]

The only time he is on is late at night NZ time. He runs a school, is there morning till 8-9 pm, is in the process of changing locations and has a student fighting this weekend. He is busy.

I can see the stuff hes teaching when I watch the fights. I dont expect to be able to bounce around people who train to fight, but it gives me a good advantage in the clinch especially, even offsetting someone a little bit with force flow stuff opens up opportunities to strike or get better positioning,when you are able to adjust to minute changes in pressure and redirect force in the position, it helps, you can control the clinch, for people who are training for mma this is perfect when against the cage also. Ale in her fight pretty much controlled the girl in the clinch the whole fight and she won.

What are you guys looking for ? as soon as one of his fighters touch there opponents they are going to be flying away ?

Please link me to videos of all your guys live demos and fights that show all your stuff ?? I guess I wont get any links because there are none. The VT guys have zero apart from PB doing chi sao against his own students and shawn obasi. The Michael Kurth videos are good, but he is obviously training with someone who does VT aswell.

The only person im aware of who trains fighters apart from Alan is that Mark Hobbs guy from Lun Gai wing chun at KFA.

For whatever reason, people are expecting demo results in real time application. Demos are not fighting, they are there to give the uninitiated a general overview of how something might work. Regardless of system, real fights/full contact matches never look like martial arts demos, no super clean tecniques, it tends to get scruffy. I don't recall Alan ever saying that force flow skills equate to effortlessly bouncing people around a cage whilst being able to easily punch them into oblivion. Force flow as I understand it isnt just about "bouncing people". It's an engine that allows striking power to be generated, it allows the practitioner to be able to absorb force efficiently through the bows of the body, it's many things. I believe DudeWingChun has hands on force flow experience so can correct me where necessary. I'm not posting anymore on this subject/forum as it just seems to get incredibly argumentative here in every thread. This place is way too stressful. Hope it doesn't end up like the kung fu magazine forum, it seems the same individuals who contributed to derailing threads there are alive and kicking here.

 

[LFJ]

The only person im aware of who trains fighters apart from Alan is that Mark Hobbs guy from Lun Gai wing chun at KFA.

Sport fighters, you mean.

For whatever reason, people are expecting demo results in real time application.

Simple reason, Alan demos something in chi-sau, says it's directly applicable in free fighting, gloves up and demos how it's supposed to work.

But so far, it's still just theory as far as I can tell, because he won't (can't?) point to a timestamp where it has worked in any of his team's fights.

Force flow may have more layers and applications, but this unbalancing "bridge" skill is one he demos and says is directly applicable. That's what I'm waiting to see show up in their fights.

 

[drop bear]

Bang on, it was the offer of a spar, nothing more nothing less. Had he had the mettle to accept and wanted to upgrade the spar to a fight with Peter, I know who my money would have been on...

It would have been a fight. You would be nuts to think that would ever have been sparring.

 

[drop bear]

??? My guys have had over 200 fights and I teach professional fighters and my skill holds up very well under pressure. What more do you need?

Could that also be due to conventional training. Like cardio strength or good basic technique?

 

[guy b.]

It would have been a fight. You would be nuts to think that would ever have been sparring.

Could that also be due to conventional training. Like cardio strength or good basic technique?

Great to see some common sense on the forum

 

[Tez3]

It would have been a fight. You would be nuts to think that would ever have been sparring.

As you don't know Pete and I do, I can safely say you are wrong.

 

[drop bear]

As you don't know Pete and I do, I can safely say you are wrong.

And as i dont know you............

 

[Tez3]

And as i dont know you............

thank goodness for small mercies .....