Place of Sanchin

[tshadowchaser]

Yes from tha list Seisan would come the closest, and it is a good kata to practice

 

[Tae Kwon Dave]

Our style doesn't have Sanchin in it and while it might be interesting to learn it, I think that there's already so much stuff to learn in the kata that Seibukan has (5 Pinan, 3 Naifanchi, 2 Fukyu, Seisan, Ananku, Wansu, Passai, Gojushiho, Wanchin, Chinto, Kushanku and Passai-gwa plus Tokumine-no-kon) and especially learning how to really use what in those that I really don't even miss it.
For us I guess the nearest equivalent might be Seisan. It teaches the basics and it is also a good exercise.

Yeah, i think so too...
I study korean karate hyungs (my school is Mudokwan - Tae Kwon Do Korean Karate), the same of japanese shotokan, as you know...but i like to practice them with the canons of J.K.A.
I studied Sanchin no kata as Kyokushin Karate praticioner (i'm 3th kyu)...but Seishan/Hangetsu (Banwol in my school) is a very good alternative.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings – I am a practitioner of Okinawan Karate and kobudo,
In Isshin-ryu I was taught that Sanchin is the father, and naihanchi the mother ,
In Goju-ryu I was taught that Sanchin is complemented by Tensho .

Sanchin is the First kata I teach, it is taught after warm-up, and
Is used to establish the breath cycle , focus the mind ,
Invigorate the body, and draw the spirit out .

The second kata I teach is Naihanchi, This is our Shorin-ryu Root,
It embodies the opposite energies , uses snapping and relaxation,
(yin quality) .

Together these kata, form heaven and earth , Man is in the middle.

According to Chojun Miyagi , founder of Goju-ryu
Sanchin , Naihanchi and tensho are a separate class of kata,
They are Kihon, and distinct from all other forms.

These kata in my dojo are preparatory kihon,
They are often repeated later, or if we take a break for water ,
(class has been averaging about 3 hr lately) when we come
Back we perform them once again to focus our minds and
Extablish our breathing.

Toward the end of class we perform Tensho, which I was taught is our
Reward for training hard.

I do not Shime test my students via Sanchin until brown belt, and
Of course I believe it is a mandatory requirement durning a sho-dan test,

IMO it takes a long time to perform Sanchin correctly , and this is why I
Teach it first , I was not taught Sanchin until much later, and
I underwent Shime testing for which I had not had adequate training
For, I think it is a mistake to wait to begin sanchin, students need
The time to grow into it , and become comfortable with it ,
To come to understand it. It is like visiting a Art museum,
You can not fully appreciate each painting (movement) until
You have spent some time observing it , You
Can not fully appreciate a symphony without many listening,
You can not understand or appreciate Sanchin without much practice .

The sooner you start the better, the Quiz or test however will not
Be at the end of class, it will be years in the future, and with
Diligent practice , you will be well prepared and capable of acing it : )

Romney^..^

 

[wolfeyes2323]

This summer Liu Ching I will be visiting my dojo to teach,
The feeding crane system he teaches also has a Sanchin
Kata, see:

(this video is mislabeled , should be Feeding Crane )

This is quite different than the Goju-ryu or Isshin-ryu version,
But listen to the breathing.

Should be interesting, training with Mr Liu and Kimo Wall
Sensei of Kodokan Goju-ryu Matayoshi Kobudo .

More info and video can be seen at
http://www.kimowall.netfirms.com/liutourposter.htm

This version of sanchin, is actually much more fluid than
Those mentioned above and closer to the Uechi-ryu version
In this regard.
See:

for Kanei Uechi Uechi ryu version

see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKvHB6hB5pY&feature=related
for Tatsuo Shimabuku Isshin-ryu version

see:

for Goju-ryu version with testing.

Also see

for related 5 ancestor fist

this is only a sample , Sanchin is a very widely
practiced form in southern Chinese systems,
as well as Okinawan karate, I think where
you teach it depends on your understanding
of what is essential. IMO in karate we
learn what is essential first, and then
take years to perfect it. There is nothing
In karate that is simple or easy, so you
start with what is the most important,
Hence in My Dojo Sanchin.
Romney^..^

 

[dwaynekrieger]

I actually teach 2 different versions of sanchin. The first Sanchin that I teach I teach at 5th Kyu. I do teach Ibuki Breathing but I teach it properly. So as to massage the liver and not to do any damage. I also teach Ibuki Breathing to children but with a limited force. Even the adult only use about 40% of full power in the breathing and dynamic tension. Really I teach it better than I type it.

The second Sanchin That I teach is a fukien White crane version that I learned that is similar to babulien. It is not done with dynamic tension and uses nogare breathing. I am not sure of the origin of this form but I have studied it extensively for about the last 5 years and I have extrapolated some very good application from it. I think it is from shaking crane as is evident from the hip vibration and shoulder rotation in the form. It is really pretty cool.

 

[Live True]

It's been a year since I last posted on this topic, and I am fascinated at the change in my sanchin. One, I have a new sensei, and her approach is slightly different from my last teacher. But, at her instruction, I have also approached Sanchin differently.

To the OP, my last sensei had Sanchin as the first Kata taught, and it was tested at each belt test. It was also practiced at almost every class; although, you would not always do the kata all the way trough every time. Sometimes we would take a section of the kata and simply work on those movement.

Currently, my sensei has me practicing Sanchin daily, both as a partial application of the kata, as the full kata, and in three different ways. I am finding new and exciting things about my posture, my movement, my form, etc. in practicing this way. It's really quite exciting!

I practice the opening sequence, opening on each side, wtih dynamic tension several times. Then I go through the kata with slow, full dynamic tension once, in this I am focusing on my targeting and movement of energy and connectedness of body. A second time with medium speed and looseness in movements, where the focus is more on power and visualizing your opponents. Then a final time at full speed and power.

I have begin to see a much stronger sanchin, and I can see how this one kata can continually teach you. It is amazing how just the simple repetition of the opening and hte kata itself has impacted my whole practice and actions.

So much in one place. Until now, I was taking it on faith that Sanchin had a lot to teach. Now, it's like a lightbulb has gone on....
I love it when that happens!

 

[K-man]

I practice Goju Ryu Karate-Do, we practise Sanchin and Tensho after learning the Taikyoku and Gekisai Kata (i.e. the preparatory forms). In some of our Dojos the Saifa Kata is introduced before the Sanchin Kata. Tensho and Seinchin are taught after this. As we adavnce in our practice Sanchin becomes more important, as we sometimes use this as a testing and body conditioning training.Later we learn the Bunkai or application of these Kata (Sanchin and Tensho) in our training. For me the Kata is a personal training and challenge to work hard at perefecting my Karate.

We also introduce it at this time. However the ibuki breathing aspect is not taught until blackbelt level as there may be potential problems with the breathing if not performed correctly. The following link is a very interesting article including comment by Dr Bill Glasheen. http://www.uechi-ryu.com/breathng.htm
The most importent aspect of Sanchin Kata is its value in developing your centre. The more you perform Sanchin, the greater your centre. :asian:

 

[wolfeyes2323]

I pose this question to people who practice sanchin on a regular basis (several times a class or a week). How much power do you use when doing the form? The reason I ask is that there are rumors that if you do this form at full power over a long period of time that it could have some adverse health conditions in the loing run (hemeroids and some stomach issues, even high blood pressure). I know it seems crazy but just wondering if you had heard this as well.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

You pose some very good questions,
The answer to your question may also answer why
different lineages learn Sanchin at different times.

Sanchin if done incorrectly can have detrimental effects,
there is no doubt about this, if practiced correctly it
is a healthy practice the forges spirit mind and body .

In the civil society in which we live, with our propensity
for obesity and generally unhealthy leaving practices,
Sanchin done incorrectly can be dangerous to the health.

It does stress the body, but this is not unique to karate or sanchin,
if you are fat and out of shape , and you suddenly jump into
a strenuous sport or activity, you are asking for problems,
it is not the fault of the sport or activity, nor the kata sanchin,
it is the fault of the practitioner or his teacher, we should
be reasonably healthy to start the practice of Sanchin,
sanchin done by the unhealthy will not make them healthy,
it will only worsen their conditions.

If we prepare correctly, learning traditional exercises
(hojo undo etc), and are reasonably healthy to begin with
sanchin can be started early in your training,

If you are out of shape , have medical conditions ,
hypertension etc to start with, incorrectly training
sanchin may kill you. (you could have a stroke)

What do I mean incorrectly ?
Sanchin should be started with little or no dynamic tension.
the student should not try and tense anything.
if we try to tense our body, the tension will not be systemic,
we will be tense where we focus or think about, or in those
places that our body normally easily tenses, for instance
the neck, and the anus, over tensing these areas is not
healthy and leads to some of the problems you mention.
Other areas are difficult to tense, (the back over the kidney ,
the inside of the thighs etc) and unless the kata is
done correctly , these areas will remain relaxed and the
tension in your body will be out of wack, (technical terms ah)
this uneven tension is not healthy.

How do you achieve even tension, without thinking about it ?

The tension in sanchin is directly related to correct posture and
correct mechanics ,(as well as breath) to add more dynamic
tension to sanchin we only need to tighten and perfect our posture ,
more mechanically correctly execute the technique, and
correctly coordinate this movement with our breath.
Sounds easy but it is not, that is why you should have a teacher.

There are different areas that control or govern muscles groups in
sanchin, the correct use of these areas are related to correct
posture, the more correct the posture, the more we are using
these muscles, the more we use these muscles the more the
muscles in the areas they govern are used.

The entire sanchin posture is related to aligning the spine ,
the internal organs and breathing correctly
If you wish I could go into this,

But if no one is reading this, I do not wish to waste the time.

If you find value in what I have said and you wish me to continue
please respond.
Romney^..^

 

[punisher73]

The entire sanchin posture is related to aligning the spine ,
the internal organs and breathing correctly
If you wish I could go into this,

But if no one is reading this, I do not wish to waste the time.

If you find value in what I have said and you wish me to continue
please respond.
Romney^..^

I would very much like to hear/read more about this, please continue and thank you for your input so far.

 

[Live True]

I too would ask to hear more!