Logic of foot angles in sanchin dachi

[isshinryuronin]

most frequent explanation being: Body, mind, breath/spirit. That we struggle to align those three so they can work in harmony

This is harder than it sounds. Having all your muscles tensed at the same time while executing technique, and simultaneously coordinating forced breathing with the movements takes much mental and physical control. Like juggling multiple balls at the same time. It really is a battle to maintain all this throughout the kata. Simple to learn, difficult to properly do it.

The Kote-kitae and Kakie practice was done in a sanchin like leg stance but with a quite natural feel to it, quite upright, just a slight bend of the knees, feet pointing more forward than inward.

This is more likely seisan stance.

 

[Fungus]

This is harder than it sounds. Having all your muscles tensed at the same time while executing technique, and simultaneously coordinating forced breathing with the movements takes much mental and physical control. Like juggling multiple balls at the same time. It really is a battle to maintain all this throughout the kata. Simple to learn, difficult to properly do it.

My association or application of this still brings my thingking to close combat fighting under pressure, where you are constantly eating body and leg strikes at full contact, too many to block, although this is not kata or actual sanchin, you need and learn while doing this howto

- tense your body, legs, stomach, arms be prepare to take hard strikes [body/tension]
- simultaneously you have to keep breathing to keep the energy up also in your counters [spirit/breath]
- you also must not loose focus on the fight itself, focusing on breathing and tensing up at the same time, easily makes you "forget" about the actual fight/combat and that you need to also attach, not just shell up and breathe.[mind/awareness]

So I think this lesson is fundamental for any fighting, even if your not always necessarily in actual sanchin dachi stance. This is my "interpretation" of sanchin lesson. This i practice every fightin session in a way. I can breath and tense up pretty well, I think the HARDEST part is to not loose awareness during pressure.

 

[Same Trick]

This is harder than it sounds. Having all your muscles tensed at the same time while executing technique, and simultaneously coordinating forced breathing with the movements takes much mental and physical control. Like juggling multiple balls at the same time. It really is a battle to maintain all this throughout the kata. Simple to learn, difficult to properly do it.

This is more likely seisan stance.

In goju-ryu doesn’t the stance look same in both Seisan and sanchin kata ?

Ah, ok I realize you mean the muscle tension applied differ between the two….in kata practice

 

[Nachi]

This is harder than it sounds. Having all your muscles tensed at the same time while executing technique, and simultaneously coordinating forced breathing with the movements takes much mental and physical control. Like juggling multiple balls at the same time. It really is a battle to maintain all this throughout the kata. Simple to learn, difficult to properly do it.

This is more likely seisan stance.

Yes, I never meant to say it was easy, of course. That's why it is a battle/struggle.
Or fighting three battles at the same time.
Tame the mind to stay in the present and control breath. The breath would in turn give rise to movement and tension of the body.
At least that is an explanation I heard and I really like.
But of course, it is hard to focus and execute properly (especially during Sanchin shime). It definitely takes a lot of practice.

 

[Buka]

As a student of the Arts whose style doesn’t include Kata, Sanchin rocks.
If I were to do a kata ten times a day, that’s the kata I’d do until my last breath.

Just an a opinion, just a preference.

 

[Cri70]

But as a humble beginner, it is not on me to question the senpai, in particular not in class. But I can not stop thinking that there is something here that isn't entirely right.

Just a comment. While your attitude is widespread and encouraged - I think it's not a good one (to be clear: nothing wrong with what you do or said, I just find bad when "masters" encourage that "no questioning" approach especially to beginners).

Imho questions should be encouraged. Sure, they must be asked without arrogance, and with the grace of knowing that in 99% of cases it's one's understanding that is lacking, not the method. But asked and encouraged nonetheless.

Every question is an excuse to detail a little, offer a single improvement and give the student a chance to practice that and get better. Probably at start 99% of the answer will pass over his head, but skill is built on the sum of the 1%s.

The idea of a school where questions are discouraged seems very bizarre to me, even as it seems widespread in the martial arts. The whole point of a master is exactly to have someone who avoids you to have to rediscover hot water every other week. If you don't use him, you can just as well watch youtube videos.

Unless I get an explanation from senpai, why this feeling is misguided(if it is), it's going to stay. At end of the day, no matter how much I respect our instructors, if it feels wrong in my body in terms of poor stability etc, then something can't possibly be right.

And this is absolutely the right attitude. If it's not working and you're shown that it's working for others.. you haven't yet been told the whole shebang. In fairness, often because people don't really know and they're just doing the missing bit without being aware of it.

Blessed is the student who has a master that can teach.

Also I have from physio visits, documented poor internal hip rotation, but at the same time I have outstanding external hip rotation (much better than most). So my overall rotation range is normal, the offset is just biased towards external. I think this is the explanation. This is why the standard angles just seems impossible for me.

For the same reason, I like the valeri style heel kick much more than the normal mawashi geri(I have to turn more than others to get the optimal angle). I have flexibility to pull this kick off as high as armpit level. Had I just been for flexible it would morph int on axe kick, but I lack flexibility in the other way to do that.

But OTOH, don't we ALL have our biases? So why not teaching constructing principles instead of angles from pictures?

Unless you have a specific health condition in your joints, there's no other reason for your hips to be more flexible in one direction than others, other that you don't train the other directions much, or you have habit that cause that stiffness (and that you can change). It's all muscles, tendons and ligaments and they all respond to proper training. There are anatomical difference but karate techniques cannot be based on having only a certain anatomy.

That said, it can take very long time for an adult to recover from their physical biases, and absolutely there's nothing wrong to stick to what works better for you now. At the end, what we call "karate" was born with one goal: staying alive and come on top on in case of a unexpected, unwanted confrontation with one or more aggressors.

In my view, how many katas you know, how many stances you can take and if your feet are 45 or 35 degrees wins you no prizes.

I can experiment a bit with what you suggest, but when I feel unstable it is only when I focus on the look, more than the feel! Ie if push my interior hip rotation to it's limits, and my feets to the limit, to get "as close to the ideal angles as I can" in absurdum, then what happens is that I loose that feeling of sinking in deep, and I feel like I am pivoting on a pin in terms of balance. So this is the best I can do to get "as close as possible", but I FEEL that this is wrong, and in contradiction with what I THINK are the constructing principles of this stance.

If I OTOH, don't care about the exact angles, jsut lower my gravity and angle the feet by internal rotation of both hips and try to feel how my body pushes the "pyramid" into the ground, and I can "bounce a little bit up and down" and feel the tension, than I feel very stable, I use this stance often when holding mitts, to be able to better resist not foward strikes byut also angles attackes without moving stance alot. When I then look down on my feet, I am closer to sanchin of shotokan.

My hypothesis is that this is likely the "sanchin dachi" for ME that is most faithful to the presume constructing principles, even though it is not quite "as close to the looks" of the ideal angles.

Much of this is due to the fact that these positions were constructed for some practical and specific reason, but the knowledge of exactly what was, at some point, lost in history; and the stances also mostly exist (as already mentioned by someone) only as fleeting moments in the constant movement and mayhem of a fight; they have little value or use in their static display, other than to train you to get in and out of them as quickly and efficiently as you can. But my impression is that such understanding is also often lost.

Both things allow for all kinds of odd, arbitrary details to be taken as a paragon of perfection. I'm a bit of an heretic perhas, but a lot of modern karate is, it seems to me, a bit of a Cargo Cult.

In other words, it's not the point that your (or the ideal) sanchin dachi works for you statically: it must work for you in combat. That's really all that matters.

 

[Fungus]

I had another insight this morning in fron of the mirror. I just realized that instead of a slightl bladed stance bias, you can keep your torost a bit more squared, but insted imagine that you secretly prepare for a turning back kick, but with out tlegraphing with your torso, you can turn your back leg more straight, and it ends up a bit tensed (just like sanchin dachi!) and this magically makes me alot more prepare and faster to perform the back kick, without the same torso telegraph. And when I look down at my feet, it is like a angled version of sanchin, but with a good teel of pretension in tthe legs! This was an aha moment, and I will ltry this on the next kumite session. The reason for angleing it is to avoid beeing more vulnerable to low kicks to leg leg....

This little details feels like a major thing and not sure why it took me years to get it.

 

[Fungus]

I even realized that this small insight, gives new input to my old quest here non-telegraph without loosing power, to what extent can training keep power?

The problem is that explanations are not in terms of where in the body to build and prepare tension etc, its more like "move like this" and you are supposed to LOOK at how the instructor did it. I know started to think that the KEY to getting the "advanced" version of ushiro geri, is specifically first to "prepare the pretension" so that there is almos an intermediate step (although you dont stop there) just before the turn where you are in this sanchin like state with a pretension in legs.

But these things that you FEEL in the body, are never expressed in clear as we get instructions.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I had another insight this morning

This little details feels like a major thing and not sure why it took me years to get it.

But these things that you FEEL in the body, are never expressed in clear as we get instructions.

These are the kind of things I've posted about in several threads over the years. While they are, taken individually small things, added together they put the experienced martial artist on a higher level. There have been threads and posts about no new things in a style's curriculum after a certain dan grade, whether it be 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th and this is true. That does not mean there's nothing more to learn, or more accurately, discover. And you never know when these bits and pieces of realization will come. Some you stumble upon as a beginner, some after 40 years.

IMO, this is one of the strongest arguments against being a "jack of all trades" and cross training many styles at the expense of concentrating in one. You miss the depth, nuances and subtleties only prolonged time in one offer. Such discoveries and insights provide the joy and motivation in making MA a lifelong journey.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but insted imagine that you secretly prepare for a turning back kick, but with out tlegraphing with your torso, you can turn your back leg more straight, and it ends up a bit tensed (just like sanchin dachi!) and this magically makes me alot more prepare and faster to perform the back kick, without the same torso telegraph.

To hide your preparation in your footwork is a good strategy. If you use roundhouse kick, inside crescent kick, or foot sweep to set up your back kick, you can also achieve the same result.

Both the inward stance and outward stance are abnormal. But at least the inward stance can protect the groin while the outward stance exposes the groin.

The wide inward stance can be used to train for "shin bite".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some you stumble upon as a beginner, some after 40 years.

May be this is so called "MA secret". You may be able to figure it out by yourself, but it may take 40 years.

 

[Fungus]

The wide inward stance can be used to train for "shin bite".

I'm not familiar with this term, what exactly do you mean by "shin bite"?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not familiar with this term, what exactly do you mean by "shin bite"?

To use your shin bone to press down the inside of your opponent's leg.

 

[Badhabits]

To use your shin bone to press down the inside of your opponent's leg.

This is the kind of thing found in karate kata I feel is often neglected. My current instructor does a good deal of explaining how your legs affect the opponents structure as you change stances and such. Not very obvious stuff looking at kata, but once you start looking for it it's everywhere. Cool stuff.

 

[Fungus]

These are the kind of things I've posted about in several threads over the years. While they are, taken individually small things, added together they put the experienced martial artist on a higher level. There have been threads and posts about no new things in a style's curriculum after a certain dan grade, whether it be 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th and this is true. That does not mean there's nothing more to learn, or more accurately, discover. And you never know when these bits and pieces of realization will come. Some you stumble upon as a beginner, some after 40 years.

I'm a young forum memeber but I like many of your insightful posts and I totally get what you say about experience...

IMO, this is one of the strongest arguments against being a "jack of all trades" and cross training many styles at the expense of concentrating in one. You miss the depth, nuances and subtleties only prolonged time in one offer. Such discoveries and insights provide the joy and motivation in making MA a lifelong journey.

.. but I am not sure I follow this argument though:

I also think and agree that it is a benefit of learning and understand a few things in depth, than learning many things superficially without understanding. Not just MA, but with anything, I dislike "learning things" without understnading, that puts me off.

But for me, the set things I should learn in depth, that should form my strength in combat situations isn't necessarily what defines a style, it might well be a mix of bits from many styles. That doesnt mean one needs to invent a new style, or advocate that everyone should focus on the same things.

So Jack of all trades, master of none, might also be a matter of classification, the jack of all trades is maybe a master of the best mix (that has no name) for himself? One problem is if you deviate from a style path, is that you are on your own, there is no single "master" to learn the depth from.

So I love to learn deep, and understand, but I just seek the best understanding, then wether it is called kyokushin, os kung fu or a bit of all, is all fine with me. But I tend to be "colorued" by the local school I train at, but I am not faithful to anyone but my own journey, but I respect all teachers along the road.

My small insights so far, has not been from studying kyokushin kihon, it's been from playing around myself on heavy bag or in the mirror, trying things out, until I suddently get the feeling into my body, and understand that its not REALLY about angles or positions, it's maybe about finiding that tension, and the angles is more related to your body and they are not the same for all. Then I would have preferred to teach that from the beginning, and save me some hair pulling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So Jack of all trades, master of none,

In AI, both the "breadth first search" and the "depth first search" will give you the same result. The breadth first search works well with a beginner. The depth first search work better with a more advanced opponent.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is the kind of thing found in karate kata I feel is often neglected. My current instructor does a good deal of explaining how your legs affect the opponents structure as you change stances and such. Not very obvious stuff looking at kata, but once you start looking for it it's everywhere. Cool stuff.

The shin bite is often neglected in the Taiji push hand too.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm a young forum memeber but I like many of your insightful posts and I totally get what you say about experience

Thanks. And there is no substitute for experience.

for me, the set things I should learn in depth, that should form my strength in combat situations isn't necessarily what defines a style, it might well be a mix of bits from many styles.

This is true to some extent. It depends on the instructor's understanding of his art and if you're around long enough to go deep. I have found over time that my primary style actually does contain some elements I've seen in other styles. Studying another style can help you better understand your main style. On the other hand, if you study your main style in depth you may find these elements already exist in it without having to go elsewhere. IMO the optimum course is to study a lot of one and some of couple more.

 

[_Simon_]

These are the kind of things I've posted about in several threads over the years. While they are, taken individually small things, added together they put the experienced martial artist on a higher level. There have been threads and posts about no new things in a style's curriculum after a certain dan grade, whether it be 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th and this is true. That does not mean there's nothing more to learn, or more accurately, discover. And you never know when these bits and pieces of realization will come. Some you stumble upon as a beginner, some after 40 years.

IMO, this is one of the strongest arguments against being a "jack of all trades" and cross training many styles at the expense of concentrating in one. You miss the depth, nuances and subtleties only prolonged time in one offer. Such discoveries and insights provide the joy and motivation in making MA a lifelong journey.

Very well said, not having the extensive experience you have, but I get it and feel that

 

[_Simon_]

My small insights so far, has not been from studying kyokushin kihon, it's been from playing around myself on heavy bag or in the mirror, trying things out, until I suddently get the feeling into my body, and understand that its not REALLY about angles or positions, it's maybe about finiding that tension, and the angles is more related to your body and they are not the same for all. Then I would have preferred to teach that from the beginning, and save me some hair pulling.

Yes, THIS. I feel it's such a crucial part of development, getting quiet with yourself and really making it an experiential discovery. I feel that some teachers may even purposely  not express certain things, so that you develop your own intuitive and inquisitive ability to either problem-solve or discover things on your own. And then others may not really know it themselves and can't therefore teach it. But either way it doesn't overly matter. I feel it's important to take responsibility for our own journey, so with either way we still have the ability to own it and learn  how to explore and discover.

Martial arts can actually be a study in how to study. When it's all just given to us we miss something significant in our development. We can't put everything onto the teacher. Just like how people do the same with the guru and putting everything on them hehe. Taking what we learn from them and playing with it and finding ways to integrate it is our joy