Logic of foot angles in sanchin dachi

[Nachi]

What an interesting topic. I had no idea Kyokushin's Sanchin dachi had such angles.
In Goju ryu, we turn the toes inward, but I don't think I ever heard about a specific angle. So I usually turn it about half of 45 degrees. The front foot more than the back one.
I know this differs in different schools, but for us, we only use this stance in Sanchin and Tensho - the breathing katas. We try to root ourselves and create isometrical tenshion throughout the body and lock the joints, which is all connected with the torque force - to stretch the tendons and engage muscles in rotation. Which is easier with toes pointed inward.
Also the knees pointing slightly inward helps protect the groin.

When I try to turn the toes in by 45 degrees, it does feel more unstable and I cannot tighten the legs that well, but that may be because I am not used to it.
It sounds liek this angle may be specific to Kyokushin, then? I do wonder how it came to be.

 

[Fungus]

The bending knee can resist the force that come to the front and also come from both sides. Can bending knee be able to resist a force that come from the back?

In this clip, A lands his foot with 45-degree inward angle. B can easily reach to A's heel and sweep A down.

But this clip is not sanchin dachi, as his leg is swept. The other foot leg is pointing the wrong way.

It's not only bending the knee. I would say it's how both legs cooperate, to support the other, it's like they lean to support each other like the side of a pyramid, and ontop are your body weight.

 

[Fungus]

I agree with that it’s quite hard to sweep the leg of a sanchin standing guy, but who stands around like that during combat ?

Not in point karate, but in very CLOSE range combat, it is not too bad a stance. Especially if you imagine adding some pushing or grappling. If you need to lower your center of gravity a little bit, this stance is not too unnnatural. I don't think the stance itself is bad or useless, my main question was the extreme angle in kyokushin. Sure if you CAN do it, logically you will be an even stronger stance, because physically there is a point to the pyramid I think. But if you can't, and push it to the limit to to comply to standard, it seems questionable.

 

[Fungus]

I agree with that it’s quite hard to sweep the leg of a sanchin standing guy, but who stands around like that during combat ?

 

[_Simon_]

I have a feeling this is the right place to ask, and I think some of you experienced here maybe can answer.

I'll try to make this short, I won't try to descrive the "constructing principles" of sanchin dachi, perhaps someone else will as part of the answer, but we know this is supposed to be a robust form, but my questions concerns the specific angles, and here different styles have different stanrds.

For example my kyokushin style says both back and front feet are approximately 45 degrees inwards. I always found this to be a close to impossible, if not highly unstable position for ME. If I force myself into it, I can barely manage to stay standing, and i would be an easy pray if someone hit me. I asked my instructors about this - in class - and got no good answer, not sure if it was due to lack ot time or not having an answer.

My idea is that the constructing princoples likely prescribes a "tension" in your legs, but what angles are required for the balance in tension and still mobility, must be linked to your individual anatomy.

I find the sanchin dachi as prescribed in shotokan, where the back foot is straight,and only fron is angled to be much more logical for me.

So can someone tell me the backstory why kyokushing sanchin dachi is so extreme? The only rational answer I can imagine myself is that the person (founder) that made this up, had a very odd anantomy with inward pointing toes? Or is there a more interesting explanation?

Okay I'm back haha. My main background is Kyokushinkai, and our sanchin dachi was as you described, and all kihon were performed from this stance too (except kicks).

I also never really got an explanation why it is so much more extreme than other styles' sanchin dachi. I feel like it still is built upon the ideas of its origins, sinking your weight, protecting the groin, and creating almost an inward spiral effect into the ground and optimising stability. My theory is, because it seems pretty all basics/kihon in Kyokushin is really exaggerated that this was simply an outgrowth of that. Sosai seemed to like the bigger movements to develop full range strength. Everything seemed bigger, grander and big power-focused.

I wasn't a big fan of the sanchin dachi and it hurt my knees a bit haha.

Our sanchin dachi in Goju is different, back foot facing straight ahead, the front foot's heel in line with the back foot's toes (this part is the same), but we lean more towards the front foot being more natural and only slightly turned in. Also another thing is we actually almost fully straighten the back leg. Not locked but straight rather than with a bend. We also tuck the pelvis to a natural position to align everything. We really focus on sinking our weight, which initially was tricky for me with the straightened back leg (as you can easily raise your centre through pushing up through that back leg straightening action). But I found straightening the back leg in conjunction with the posterior pelvic tucking motion assisted in sinking the weight.

And I've always said it's not so much about the front foot angle but it being about the slight internal hip rotation. You can then drop/bend the knees and the knees should come together (NOT cave in but move in towards each other as they move forwards) to protect the groin further.

But I'm always interested in everyone's thoughts on sanchin dachi. I think as long as it adheres to those principles of sinking the weight, feet flattening through the ground (as opposed to gripping which can actually being the feet up into a higher contracted position thus losing connection with the ground), postural alignment, and developing rootedness, being grounded and stable, all is good

In terms of you mentioning you feel highly unstable in it, is your weight centred 50/50 between feet? Do you feel like you are sinking your weight down rather than being raised up? Maybe experiment also with alternating between inward tension (squeezing inwards with adductors without caving knees in) and outward tension (pressing down and out using glutes) through the legs/feet. See what feels better and more stable for you. And then try neither. But sinking weight and feeling like you're simultaneously being rooted deeply into the ground whilst simultaneously being pulled upwards from a string attached to the top of your head is key

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But I'm always interested in everyone's thoughts on sanchin dachi.

I think the inward stance is used for "shin bite".

 

[Same Trick]

Not in point karate, but in very CLOSE range combat, it is not too bad a stance. Especially if you imagine adding some pushing or grappling. If you need to lower your center of gravity a little bit, this stance is not too unnnatural. I don't think the stance itself is bad or useless, my main question was the extreme angle in kyokushin. Sure if you CAN do it, logically you will be an even stronger stance, because physically there is a point to the pyramid I think. But if you can't, and push it to the limit to to comply to standard, it seems questionable.

Yes about close range. Moving from sanchin stance to next sanchin stance usually done moving leg forward in from inside to out crescent arch step indicating gettin inside opponent stance trapping his front leg

Come to think about that, kyukushin in kihon practice usually step forward in straight line, do they also do that in Sanchin kata practice?

 

[Fungus]

Thanks for your elaborated response, and confirming it from your experience!

Okay I'm back haha. My main background is Kyokushinkai, and our sanchin dachi was as you described, and all kihon were performed from this stance too (except kicks).

I also never really got an explanation why it is so much more extreme than other styles' sanchin dachi. I feel like it still is built upon the ideas of its origins, sinking your weight, protecting the groin, and creating almost an inward spiral effect into the ground and optimising stability.

This is exactly how i think of ti as well, and these principles are I think quite sufficient, and a sanchin-like stance appaears naturally. Specific optimal angles etc, are likely completely individual? or so I like to think. Many factors, hip rotation, and may also feet/ankel flexibility and other things would matter.

My theory is, because it seems pretty all basics/kihon in Kyokushin is really exaggerated that this was simply an outgrowth of that. Sosai seemed to like the bigger movements to develop full range strength. Everything seemed bigger, grander and big power-focused.

I wasn't a big fan of the sanchin dachi and it hurt my knees a bit haha.

Our sanchin dachi in Goju is different, back foot facing straight ahead, the front foot's heel in line with the back foot's toes (this part is the same), but we lean more towards the front foot being more natural and only slightly turned in. Also another thing is we actually almost fully straighten the back leg. Not locked but straight rather than with a bend. We also tuck the pelvis to a natural position to align everything. We really focus on sinking our weight, which initially was tricky for me with the straightened back leg (as you can easily raise your centre through pushing up through that back leg straightening action). But I found straightening the back leg in conjunction with the posterior pelvic tucking motion assisted in sinking the weight.

So Sosai coming from both shotokan, and goju ryu background, decided to change the sanchin from both. This can't be for no reason.

And I've always said it's not so much about the front foot angle but it being about the slight internal hip rotation. You can then drop/bend the knees and the knees should come together (NOT cave in but move in towards each other as they move forwards) to protect the groin further.

But I'm always interested in everyone's thoughts on sanchin dachi. I think as long as it adheres to those principles of sinking the weight, feet flattening through the ground (as opposed to gripping which can actually being the feet up into a higher contracted position thus losing connection with the ground), postural alignment, and developing rootedness, being grounded and stable, all is good

This is in line with my thinking as well, thanks for confirming my thinking!

In class I get what I as a beginner feel is superficial comments about the angles beeing off. But as a humble beginner, it is not on me to question the senpai, in particular not in class. But I can not stop thinking that there is something here that isn't entirely right. Unless I get an explanation from senpai, why this feeling is misguided(if it is), it's going to stay. At end of the day, no matter how much I respect our instructors, if it feels wrong in my body in terms of poor stability etc, then something can't possibly be right.

Also I have from physio visits, documented poor internal hip rotation, but at the same time I have outstanding external hip rotation (much better than most). So my overall rotation range is normal, the offset is just biased towards external. I think this is the explanation. This is why the standard angles just seems impossible for me.

For the same reason, I like the valeri style heel kick much more than the normal mawashi geri(I have to turn more than others to get the optimal angle). I have flexibility to pull this kick off as high as armpit level. Had I just been for flexible it would morph int on axe kick, but I lack flexibility in the other way to do that.

But OTOH, don't we ALL have our biases? So why not teaching constructing principles instead of angles from pictures?

In terms of you mentioning you feel highly unstable in it, is your weight centred 50/50 between feet? Do you feel like you are sinking your weight down rather than being raised up? Maybe experiment also with alternating between inward tension (squeezing inwards with adductors without caving knees in) and outward tension (pressing down and out using glutes) through the legs/feet. See what feels better and more stable for you. And then try neither. But sinking weight and feeling like you're simultaneously being rooted deeply into the ground whilst simultaneously being pulled upwards from a string attached to the top of your head is key

I can experiment a bit with what you suggest, but when I feel unstable it is only when I focus on the look, more than the feel! Ie if push my interior hip rotation to it's limits, and my feets to the limit, to get "as close to the ideal angles as I can" in absurdum, then what happens is that I loose that feeling of sinking in deep, and I feel like I am pivoting on a pin in terms of balance. So this is the best I can do to get "as close as possible", but I FEEL that this is wrong, and in contradiction with what I THINK are the constructing principles of this stance.

If I OTOH, don't care about the exact angles, jsut lower my gravity and angle the feet by internal rotation of both hips and try to feel how my body pushes the "pyramid" into the ground, and I can "bounce a little bit up and down" and feel the tension, than I feel very stable, I use this stance often when holding mitts, to be able to better resist not foward strikes byut also angles attackes without moving stance alot. When I then look down on my feet, I am closer to sanchin of shotokan.

My hypothesis is that this is likely the "sanchin dachi" for ME that is most faithful to the presume constructing principles, even though it is not quite "as close to the looks" of the ideal angles.

 

[Same Trick]

I think the inward stance is used for "shin bite".

Yes I had that in mind too. I think the sanchin stance quite so indicate such leg skills

 

[Fungus]

Yes about close range. Moving from sanchin stance to next sanchin stance usually done moving leg forward in from inside to out crescent arch step indicating gettin inside opponent stance trapping his front leg

Come to think about that, kyukushin in kihon practice usually step forward in straight line, do they also do that in Sanchin kata practice?

when we walk in sanching, in kyokushin we move the feet circularly, just as you describe.

Straight lines are otherwise the case when you walk in zenkutsu dachi, where shotokan for example does an arc via the other foot - we don't.

 

[Same Trick]

when we walk in sanching, in kyokushin we move the feet circularly, just as you describe.

Straight lines are otherwise the case when you walk in zenkutsu dachi, where shotokan for example does an arc via the other foot - we don't.

Yes it interesting, I was into Shotokan in my younger years, although there’s no Sanchin kata in Shotokan stepping are done in an arch, Shotokan do have Seisan(hangetsu) kata that originally have the arch stepping, maybe Shotokan bow stance(Jenkins’s) stepping derived from that kata.
(hangetsu as Funakoshi renamed seisan kata supposedly mean arch/half circle/ crescent moon

 

[Nachi]

Thanks for your elaborated response, and confirming it from your experience!

This is exactly how i think of ti as well, and these principles are I think quite sufficient, and a sanchin-like stance appaears naturally. Specific optimal angles etc, are likely completely individual? or so I like to think. Many factors, hip rotation, and may also feet/ankel flexibility and other things would matter.


So Sosai coming from both shotokan, and goju ryu background, decided to change the sanchin from both. This can't be for no reason.


This is in line with my thinking as well, thanks for confirming my thinking!

In class I get what I as a beginner feel is superficial comments about the angles beeing off. But as a humble beginner, it is not on me to question the senpai, in particular not in class. But I can not stop thinking that there is something here that isn't entirely right. Unless I get an explanation from senpai, why this feeling is misguided(if it is), it's going to stay. At end of the day, no matter how much I respect our instructors, if it feels wrong in my body in terms of poor stability etc, then something can't possibly be right.

Also I have from physio visits, documented poor internal hip rotation, but at the same time I have outstanding external hip rotation (much better than most). So my overall rotation range is normal, the offset is just biased towards external. I think this is the explanation. This is why the standard angles just seems impossible for me.

For the same reason, I like the valeri style heel kick much more than the normal mawashi geri(I have to turn more than others to get the optimal angle). I have flexibility to pull this kick off as high as armpit level. Had I just been for flexible it would morph int on axe kick, but I lack flexibility in the other way to do that.

But OTOH, don't we ALL have our biases? So why not teaching constructing principles instead of angles from pictures?


I can experiment a bit with what you suggest, but when I feel unstable it is only when I focus on the look, more than the feel! Ie if push my interior hip rotation to it's limits, and my feets to the limit, to get "as close to the ideal angles as I can" in absurdum, then what happens is that I loose that feeling of sinking in deep, and I feel like I am pivoting on a pin in terms of balance. So this is the best I can do to get "as close as possible", but I FEEL that this is wrong, and in contradiction with what I THINK are the constructing principles of this stance.

If I OTOH, don't care about the exact angles, jsut lower my gravity and angle the feet by internal rotation of both hips and try to feel how my body pushes the "pyramid" into the ground, and I can "bounce a little bit up and down" and feel the tension, than I feel very stable, I use this stance often when holding mitts, to be able to better resist not foward strikes byut also angles attackes without moving stance alot. When I then look down on my feet, I am closer to sanchin of shotokan.

My hypothesis is that this is likely the "sanchin dachi" for ME that is most faithful to the presume constructing principles, even though it is not quite "as close to the looks" of the ideal angles.

If you are a beginner, though, I would still try my best to turn the feet and sink as much as possible. Just practicing and moving in stances which seem unnatural and you lack the flexibility for will help you develop it in time.
Even if you take it just as a stretching exercise. Try to hold the stance for maybe a minute, breath, align and relax the body and sink.

I really improved my ankle and hip mobility when pushing and really trying to do my taiji stances properly. Now I can move much more easily. Now I need to work on my external hip rotation...

If there is an opportunity, maybe your sempai/sensei will explain if there is a reason for such big anfles in the feet. If they do, let us know! I am curious

 

[Fungus]

If you are a beginner, though, I would still try my best to turn the feet and sink as much as possible. Just practicing and moving in stances which seem unnatural and you lack the flexibility for will help you develop it in time.
Even if you take it just as a stretching exercise. Try to hold the stance for maybe a minute, breath, align and relax the body and sink.

Yes, its not that I didnt try. I've tried for a couple of years, but one also learn another lession the hard way. Listen to your own body and not just to others. I learned that sometimes stretching is good, sometimes not so good. I think stretching muscles are what you are suppose to stretch, not joints and other things. I found out that I have been "stretching" a jammed nerve for a long time, because i was told that a it of pain during stretching isnt bad. But now after 2 years I know how to feel when i am stretching just the muscles, and not nerves.

It also feels wrong to stretch joints or knees. When I do mu best in sanchin, a bit more, I feel like I am actually stressing my joints and I am not comfortable pushing such things. To plain stretch a simple muscles is one thing, but this is I think something more, and i dont to repeat stupid mistake.

I've somehome come to think that there is a limit to how much you can improve by benging stretching, and what is anatomical differences in your bones and joints etc?

 

[Nachi]

Yes, its not that I didnt try. I've tried for a couple of years, but one also learn another lession the hard way. Listen to your own body and not just to others. I learned that sometimes stretching is good, sometimes not so good. I think stretching muscles are what you are suppose to stretch, not joints and other things. I found out that I have been "stretching" a jammed nerve for a long time, because i was told that a it of pain during stretching isnt bad. But now after 2 years I know how to feel when i am stretching just the muscles, and not nerves.

It also feels wrong to stretch joints or knees. When I do mu best in sanchin, a bit more, I feel like I am actually stressing my joints and I am not comfortable pushing such things. To plain stretch a simple muscles is one thing, but this is I think something more, and i dont to repeat stupid mistake.

I've somehome come to think that there is a limit to how much you can improve by benging stretching, and what is anatomical differences in your bones and joints etc?

Yeah, definitely don't go past pain and when you feel you are stressing your joints.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Re: Foot angles in sanchin -

My theory is, because it seems pretty all basics/kihon in Kyokushin is really exaggerated that this was simply an outgrowth of that. Sosai seemed to like the bigger movements to develop full range strength. Everything seemed bigger, grander and big power-focused.

I also lean towards this view. A 45-degree angle seems a little too extreme to me. Kyokushin has its own priorities (as do all systems) so their sanchin stance would reflect this.

My sanchin has the front foot angled to about 40-degrees. My back foot is angled about 3-degrees, very slight but giving just enough tension to help give the feeling of grabbing the floor.

Re: Sanchin kata - I don't see it as primarily a fighting kata. Though it certainly has fighting techniques I don't believe that is its priority. It's very short with a very limited number of techniques and steps, using just the single stance. In my view it's not designed for developing agility, teaching new techniques, strategies or handling unique self-defense scenarios. IMO it's a specialty kata, designed for a particular purpose, primarily building structure. I think it does a good job at that.

 

[Same Trick]

Sanchin” supposedly translates as - three battles.
What battles are those ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sanchin” supposedly translates as - three battles.
What battles are those ?

White crane 3 battles form - large battle, small battle, take off battle (not sure what "脱 - take off" mean here).

It's interested to see that this form has no kick. Does anybody know why?

 

[Nachi]

Sanchin” supposedly translates as - three battles.
What battles are those ?

I heard it can be a number of things, for example: Human, earth, universe/heaven; or Body, consciousness, energy.
But most frequent explanation being: Body, mind, breath/spirit. That we struggle to align those three so they can work in harmony whether in Sanchin kata or daily life.

 

[Same Trick]

Back in my karate days I went to Japan for a karate adventure. On main island(s) Japan I went on to practice Shotokan as that was the style I learned in my home country, but I ended my Japan adventure in Okinawa where I ended up in a Goju-ryu dojo.

My stay in Okinawa was just about two months so the teacher thought I just focus on “hojo-undo”(equipment strength practice), and “kote-kitae and kakie”(partner(sparring) practice).

The Kote-kitae and Kakie practice was done in a sanchin like leg stance but with a quite natural feel to it, quite upright, just a slight bend of the knees, feet pointing more forward than inward.

 

[Same Trick]

I heard it can be a number of things, for example: Human, earth, universe/heaven; or Body, consciousness, energy.
But most frequent explanation being: Body, mind, breath/spirit. That we struggle to align those three so they can work in harmony whether in Sanchin kata or daily life.

Thanks, yes the - body/ mind / breath sound right/logic explanation