Sanchin Ryu

[dancingalone]

But, to me what really sets Sanchin-Ryu apart from other styles are the forms and katas (Forms are differentiated from katas in our style because of what they train/teach). The forms are set up to illustrate a concept and how to use that concept in an altercation. For example, Wansu teaches how to use the dump, it gives the concept of distancing, timing, how to set a dump up and gives an example of the dump. Now, the student takes that information and starts to understand it and how to "create" more dumps with proper set ups etc and how to move an attacker into position where they might be susceptible for a dump. This concept also extends to our verbal altercations in life. Most of us are more likely to get into an argument/disagreement with a loved one, friend or co-worker than getting jumped on the street. How do you handle that? The forms have the mental component that teaches de-escalation techniques and strategies based on the physical movements and ideas. I don't know of any style that teaches this concept inherent with it's physical movements.

So, a 'form' also has a mental component to it. Is Wansu a form or a kata in your parlance?

Along with this, the forms/katas ARE set up to all be a study in multiple attackers and how to move to create human shields, how to cut off angles or approach by our attackers and how to move myself to manipulate their behavior. They also teach "how" to use the body to generate power with less effort. Reading the material from the top bunkai experts (Abernathy, Kane and Wilder) their view is that the traditional katas are NOT designed as multiple attacker sequences so again this is something different that is not reflected in Isshin-Ryu and many other styles.

That IS different. Are there any video clips you know of that would serve as a case lesson?

I have always thought that some martial arts handle the issue of multiple attackers better from a base pedagogy perspective. Usually they weren't called karate IMO... I'd be curious how a sanchin-ryu solution teaches the perimeter movement compared to silat or even aikido.

 

[punisher73]

Well, we know from the previous posts that sanchin-ryu has at least a version of the Chart techniques from Isshin-ryu and it seems like they also use the vertical fist and block with the muscles of the arm rather than the blade.

Some open questions I have:

Do they have all the same empty hand and kobudo kata as Isshin-ryu?

Do they follow the same koans Shimabuko learned and embedded into his teachings?

E.G.

The heart is the same as heaven and earth
The blood moving is like the moon and the sun
The manner of drinking and spitting is either hard or soft
A person's unbalance acts like a weight
The body should be able to change motion at any time
Strike when the opportunity presents itself
The eyes must see in all directions
The ears must hear everything

Some of the basic techniques are the same as some of the "chart techniques" in Isshin-Ryu. But, they are not organized in the same manner. It should be noted that Isshin-Ryu's basic upper body chart was a copy of Funakoshi beginners kata "Ten no kata" so it is nothing new or unique in and of itself. Our basics are arranged so that each basic sets up for the one before it or after it. For example, basic uppercut to the solar plexus sets up for the thrust punch to the chin or the thrust to the chin will set up for the punch to the solar plexus. We have ten basic techniques which are the foundational movements that the other techniques are designed on.

The concepts of the kenpo gokui are something that is taught as a course of good self-defense, but the kenpo gokui are not taught or mentioned as a seperate thing as Shimabuku taught or listed as the lyrics/poem.

We do use the vertical fist, but we do not teach bone blocks at all. It would be a strike using the bone portion of the forearm or the pisiform bone to damage the incoming limb.

The katas share the same names and strategies, but they are altered to illustrate Sanchin-ryu's approach. Again, to use Wansu as an example. We are not trying to historically pass down the techniques that a chinese envoy taught, so we did not just change the physical appearance of the form and call it new (For example, many of Isshin-Ryu's katas). We do however, find the concepts that Wansu taught for fighting very valuable so we use the name "Wansu" to pay tribute to where the strategies came from although the specific techniques and strategies are unique to Sanchin-Ryu.

 

[punisher73]

So, a 'form' also has a mental component to it. Is Wansu a form or a kata in your parlance?



That IS different. Are there any video clips you know of that would serve as a case lesson?

I have always thought that some martial arts handle the issue of multiple attackers better from a base pedagogy perspective. Usually they weren't called karate IMO... I'd be curious how a sanchin-ryu solution teaches the perimeter movement compared to silat or even aikido.

Please describe how you define "perimeter movement" so we are on the same page.

I will try and give a quick example to get the ball rolling though. Picture two attackers in front of you off at 45 degree angles. So if you are in the middle of a clock, one would be at about 1:30 and the other at about 10:30. If they start to close, and I pull straight back to 6:00, I have done nothing to improve my positioning because both can still close in equally without interference. But, if I create distance and move along the 3 o'clock line, then when the attacker at 1:30 closes in to get to me, he has now cut off the line of approach to the attacker at 10:30. Again, this is just a quick basic example.

 

[punisher73]

Thanks, but that video didn't say much once one listens to it.

Summary: Dearman has been working on his system his whole life and he had some great teachers who most have never heard of. He never envisioned sanchin-ryu becoming worldwide as it (apparently) has; he just wanted to set up an affordable training option for people.

Dearman seems like a nice guy. I'll overlook the bling-bling.

Decent summary of the video, as the video stated, when people ask about the "history of Sanchin-Ryu", they are really asking about his biography. He has always wanted the focus to be on the students and their study not on him. I agree, that as a curiousity it would be interesting to know all of the styles etc. But, as a student, it does not help me better myself or my education if I know that he started in Judo, trained in boxing obtained blackbelts in Shotokan, Isshin-Ryu and some others, or the fact that he also trained in kung fu. How does that help YOU take the information and apply it to your training and make it work?

Why spend time trying to justify what you do to people who are going to have already decided and prejudged? It goes one of two ways. 1) He lists all of his accomplishments and then gets judged that he couldn't have done those things or 2) He lists all of his accomplishments and is judged that he didn't do enough things.

I am of the firm belief that if CGM Dearman, was of asian decent and presented Sanchin-Ryu to the world, there wouldn't be an issue with it. But, everyone has to find something to justify what they do as "better". I find it interesting though that on Okinawa, Isshin-Ryu is looked down as a substyle of Shorin-Ryu, and both the Goju-ryu and Shorin-Ryu groups say that Shimabuku never had enough training to learn the whole systems before he started his own. It's the same argument with every style out there. EVERY style was started by someone at some point, what makes it more or less valid when it is started in Okinawa?

If you enjoy it and it benefits you and your life and it helps protect yourself, then why care what someone else does?

 

[dancingalone]

Please describe how you define "perimeter movement" so we are on the same page.

I will try and give a quick example to get the ball rolling though. Picture two attackers in front of you off at 45 degree angles. So if you are in the middle of a clock, one would be at about 1:30 and the other at about 10:30. If they start to close, and I pull straight back to 6:00, I have done nothing to improve my positioning because both can still close in equally without interference. But, if I create distance and move along the 3 o'clock line, then when the attacker at 1:30 closes in to get to me, he has now cut off the line of approach to the attacker at 10:30. Again, this is just a quick basic example.

Your example is a good one for what I call perimeter movement. Essentially you never want to be in a position where multiple limbs from the same person, much less multiple people can hit you. So we have the goal? How do we achieve it?

Different systems call for different tactical solutions. Some might take a vector that carries you to the side of the attackers, presenting a target to only one. Some might call for an entry into one attacker, defeating him along the way. Variations also take place within the techniques and footwork used in trying to accomplish these tactics.

Anyway, I'd love to see an example Sanchin-ryu lesson illustrating a kata-oriented lesson for handling multiple assailants. If I sign up for the $5 deal, is there a video online?

 

[dancingalone]

Decent summary of the video, as the video stated, when people ask about the "history of Sanchin-Ryu", they are really asking about his biography. He has always wanted the focus to be on the students and their study not on him. I agree, that as a curiousity it would be interesting to know all of the styles etc. But, as a student, it does not help me better myself or my education if I know that he started in Judo, trained in boxing obtained blackbelts in Shotokan, Isshin-Ryu and some others, or the fact that he also trained in kung fu. How does that help YOU take the information and apply it to your training and make it work?

<shrugs> I really don't care about Dearman, the person. I don't know him, nor do I train with him. I didn't know Shimabuku or train with him either. But knowing that Shimabuku took aspects of his training from shorin-ryu and goju-ryu lets me understand better his creation of isshin-ryu, since I have studied both parent systems.

So with regard to Dearman, it is illuminating to know that he taught isshin-ryu. Just as it would be to know for example if he is a dan in judo or TKD or what not. We are the sum of our parts. My karate students have excellent kicks because I studied tae kwon do and I have taught them some of the Korean kicks which fill a gap in their karate education.

Why spend time trying to justify what you do to people who are going to have already decided and prejudged? It goes one of two ways. 1) He lists all of his accomplishments and then gets judged that he couldn't have done those things or 2) He lists all of his accomplishments and is judged that he didn't do enough things.

I've got no beef with Dearman or what you've told me so far about sanchin-ryu. The only bit I question is the no sparring part, but that's hardly unusual in Okinawan karate.

I do think it would be useful at least for future sanchin-ryu students however if Mr. Dearman was candid and transparent about his training background. (Not saying he isn't in person... it's just not easy to find on his website if it is even there, and you'd think this should be no-brainer information to put out.)

I am of the firm belief that if CGM Dearman, was of asian decent and presented Sanchin-Ryu to the world, there wouldn't be an issue with it. But, everyone has to find something to justify what they do as "better". I find it interesting though that on Okinawa, Isshin-Ryu is looked down as a substyle of Shorin-Ryu, and both the Goju-ryu and Shorin-Ryu groups say that Shimabuku never had enough training to learn the whole systems before he started his own. It's the same argument with every style out there. EVERY style was started by someone at some point, what makes it more or less valid when it is started in Okinawa?

If you enjoy it and it benefits you and your life and it helps protect yourself, then why care what someone else does?

Someone will always look down on another system. I understand that. Heck, some Chinese stylists mock Okinawan karate. That's not to say that everything is relative however. Some systems really do having holes in concept. Some might teach poor physical technique. Some might overemphasis a specific set of techniques or tactics to the point of caricature.

At the moment, I don't have a positive or a negative personal impression of sanchin-ryu, but I appreciate the information. You're a good ambassador for your style.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How does that help YOU take the information and apply it to your training and make it work?

It doesn't. But that's not the purpose for the question.

Why spend time trying to justify what you do to people who are going to have already decided and prejudged? It goes one of two ways. 1) He lists all of his accomplishments and then gets judged that he couldn't have done those things or 2) He lists all of his accomplishments and is judged that he didn't do enough things.

When I chose my family doctor, I did research on his credentials. The fact that my doctor has good credentials doesn't mean he's a great doctor, but it gave me a level of confidence that I was going to get quality treatment. I have no doubt that doctors of lesser credentials could be as good or better than mine, but I can't simply try every doctor in town until I find a good one; I have go find some criteria by which to make decisions regarding my own life and health. That's the purpose of having a history one is willing to disclose.

How would you feel about going to a doctor who refused to tell you what medical school he went to, where he graduated in his class, what his grades were, what boards he was certified by, but told you that he had been trained 'lots of places' by 'lots of doctors you never heard of'? He might be a great doctor - it's certainly possible - but would that give you a warm fuzzy feeling?

I am of the firm belief that if CGM Dearman, was of asian decent and presented Sanchin-Ryu to the world, there wouldn't be an issue with it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'd have the same questions.

EVERY style was started by someone at some point, what makes it more or less valid when it is started in Okinawa?

It doesn't. But to the best of my knowledge, every style from Okinawa (and most from elsewhere that I'm aware of) have a history. A list of teachers, dates trained, belts earned. Sometimes tournaments fought, other references, etc.

This adds something that has noting to do with superiority of any given style. It adds legitimacy.

If you enjoy it and it benefits you and your life and it helps protect yourself, then why care what someone else does?

Good question. Why care that someone else is curious about the history of one's art?

I believe that it is entirely possible for a very talented individual to come up with an effective self-defense system entirely on their own, or with very little traditional training from other instructors.

With respect for that possibility, if I were that person, I would think it worthwhile to state that clearly and openly. I would list my instructors, the dates and places I trained, the belts or certifications I earned. If they were not high ranks, so what? I'd be stating clearly that I came up with *my* system on my own, and I'm not claiming to have legitimacy through a past I allude to but will not name. Sure, others would criticize. As you said, they'll do so anyway. At least I'd have been open about it.

But that's just me. Perhaps others don't feel that way.

 

[punisher73]

That is a misnomer. Two man drills, ippon kumite are utilized and jiyu kumite is used as well. The free sparring aspect is just not emphasized as much and again is used as a specific tool in the training.

 

[dancingalone]

That is a misnomer. Two man drills, ippon kumite are utilized and jiyu kumite is used as well. The free sparring aspect is just not emphasized as much and again is used as a specific tool in the training.

Pretty standard stuff then in contrast to what was mentioned a few years ago about there being no free sparring.

There aren't many better drills than jiyu kumite to work on one's ability to hit a moving, adversarial target while being under duress yourself. Cardio-conditioning and general physical toughness are also qualities which are helped by regular free sparring.

IMO jiyu kumite isn't the most important part of karate training, but I would look carefully at a school that says they do not emphasize it to make sure that they build up the desirable characteristics jiyu kumite brings in other ways.

 

[punisher73]

It doesn't. But that's not the purpose for the question.



When I chose my family doctor, I did research on his credentials. The fact that my doctor has good credentials doesn't mean he's a great doctor, but it gave me a level of confidence that I was going to get quality treatment. I have no doubt that doctors of lesser credentials could be as good or better than mine, but I can't simply try every doctor in town until I find a good one; I have go find some criteria by which to make decisions regarding my own life and health. That's the purpose of having a history one is willing to disclose.

How would you feel about going to a doctor who refused to tell you what medical school he went to, where he graduated in his class, what his grades were, what boards he was certified by, but told you that he had been trained 'lots of places' by 'lots of doctors you never heard of'? He might be a great doctor - it's certainly possible - but would that give you a warm fuzzy feeling?



I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'd have the same questions.



It doesn't. But to the best of my knowledge, every style from Okinawa (and most from elsewhere that I'm aware of) have a history. A list of teachers, dates trained, belts earned. Sometimes tournaments fought, other references, etc.

This adds something that has noting to do with superiority of any given style. It adds legitimacy.



Good question. Why care that someone else is curious about the history of one's art?

I believe that it is entirely possible for a very talented individual to come up with an effective self-defense system entirely on their own, or with very little traditional training from other instructors.

With respect for that possibility, if I were that person, I would think it worthwhile to state that clearly and openly. I would list my instructors, the dates and places I trained, the belts or certifications I earned. If they were not high ranks, so what? I'd be stating clearly that I came up with *my* system on my own, and I'm not claiming to have legitimacy through a past I allude to but will not name. Sure, others would criticize. As you said, they'll do so anyway. At least I'd have been open about it.

But that's just me. Perhaps others don't feel that way.

I agree with you on one hand and also disagree with other aspects. When you go to a doctor and he lists "Harvard" as where he got his degree, you know what their standards are etc. and would be impressed. In the same token, if your instructor trained directly with Shimabuku or very closely, that would mean something as well. But, now picture that you are training in the 50's and 60's when most people had never heard of karate, let alone what the different styles were, and add to that there were pretty much NO alphabet organizations overseeing things. Would it make any difference to say that I obtained a blackbelt at "Joe's Karate Studio"? with no longer anyway to check that information or evaluate what that means in the scope of things?

Going back to the doctor analogy, you know that they had a certain education. But, ultimately, isn't it your doctor that you stay with because of what he can do and feel comfortable with? CGM Dearman learned long ago that it was not important for what his instructors could do, it was important to what lessons he could help you with and educate you with. Every style, school and organization has a different meaning for what a black belt means to them. He has always chosen to be judged solely on what he can do and not what others may have done before him.

You may not agree with that approach, but it is how he feels.

 

[punisher73]

Pretty standard stuff then in contrast to what was mentioned a few years ago about there being no free sparring.

There aren't many better drills than jiyu kumite to work on one's ability to hit a moving, adversarial target while being under duress yourself. Cardio-conditioning and general physical toughness are also qualities which are helped by regular free sparring.

IMO jiyu kumite isn't the most important part of karate training, but I would look carefully at a school that says they do not emphasize it to make sure that they build up the desirable characteristics jiyu kumite brings in other ways.

The stuff I have personally experienced and trained in with Sanchin-Ryu amazes me with what I hear esposed by others who may have studied a very short time in it. I have heard MANY things that people have claimed about CGM Dearman to discredit him and many people who say that Sanchin-ryu does or doesn't do this, yet we do.

 

[Sanchin-E]

@Punisher, would you say that sanchin-ryu has similarities with american kenpo? Aside from not being nearly as specific with the self defense techniques?

 

[punisher73]

@Punisher, would you say that sanchin-ryu has similarities with american kenpo? Aside from not being nearly as specific with the self defense techniques?

Yes, I have noticed some similarities in approach. But, the more I have looked at arts and their history there is alot more in common with most of them than there is that seperate them. I think their commonalities lie in the fact that both were born out of actual experience and not just tradition.

There is going to be alot of commonalities when it comes to what does and doesn't work in the street.

 

[bigmoe]

Hello to all hear is my undrerstanding. IT did start in michigan he did study in isshinryu could not make it to the rank of bb started one school then went down I-75 opened another and so on promoted someone to bb gave them part of the school took part of the profits and moved on.Sold his idea to school systems and made a lot of money.I dont think they are non profit. I had some one in my neighborhood that owned a school but got in trouble closed school moved to Texas to start another school. I know at that school they were a belt factory and the instructor was out for the buck,Also when i got out of the army i answered an add in the paper for bb teachers so i called and it was the system that you are talking about told me that they would teach me what i needed to know to run a school for them for about 25 hr that was back in 1996 that is why i question the style. I have always said one style is not better than another it depends on the instruction you get so if it doesnt seem right it probally not. I know my style is isshinryu wich i have been studying for 29 yrs but i have also taken three others styles and had good instruction in two of the three.

 

[punisher73]

Hello to all hear is my undrerstanding. IT did start in michigan he did study in isshinryu could not make it to the rank of bb started one school then went down I-75 opened another and so on promoted someone to bb gave them part of the school took part of the profits and moved on.Sold his idea to school systems and made a lot of money.I dont think they are non profit. I had some one in my neighborhood that owned a school but got in trouble closed school moved to Texas to start another school. I know at that school they were a belt factory and the instructor was out for the buck,Also when i got out of the army i answered an add in the paper for bb teachers so i called and it was the system that you are talking about told me that they would teach me what i needed to know to run a school for them for about 25 hr that was back in 1996 that is why i question the style. I have always said one style is not better than another it depends on the instruction you get so if it doesnt seem right it probally not. I know my style is isshinryu wich i have been studying for 29 yrs but i have also taken three others styles and had good instruction in two of the three.

I highly doubt that this was the same system. They run no schools and have not "advertised" for instructors. Instructors are not paid for their time. I have been around from before 1996 and this was not the practice at that time, and has not been the practice ever since then. I have also spoken with instructors who have been there from the beginning and it was never that way.

I do know from personal experience that there was a guy from New York claiming to be the "soke" of Sanchin-Ryu. I also know that there was contact made to cease and desist using the name. I was the person that brought this to their attention, so I know the other person to be fact and not rumor. I do not know what his business practices were, but the time frame was about the same of him using the name.

Sanchin Systems/OSKA has always run as a non-profit organization. I have also heard the former chief instructor tell people that the reason he left was because CGM Dearman was making all of this money and was buying a sports car every year with the money. What's funny is that, the former CI was the one who was always buying sports cars with money he got (law settlement, retirement etc). When Sanchin-Ryu first started, all of it was paid out of CGM Dearman's pockets and they lived close to broke for most of those early years ( I know people who have spoken with the accountant that has been the same one all these years). Even now, he lives a modest lifestyle and only takes $1 for his salary as head of Sanchin Systems. He earns his money doing other things.

 

[punisher73]

I spoke with CGM Dearman to clear this up, long story short here are some facts in this matter to bigmoe's claim.

1) Robert Dearman never studied in Detroit.
2) He never received any Isshin-Ryu advancements/ranks/belts from anyone other than Alex Furda.
3) He received Purple, Brown, Sho-Dan and Ni-Dan from Alex, after being tested by him personally. ( I was incorrect when I stated San-Dan, that is my fault and mine alone)