On Bullies and the Bullied

[dancingalone]

Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?

Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They're just learning how to relate to each other. As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.

Am I completely off base?

How do you define bullying personally, Steve? I think some have too liberal of a definition... not inviting someone to a party does not constitute bullying in my book. Saying a few unkind words here or there does not necessarily do it for me either.

Consider team sports like American football. I played it up through high school and it's rife with what many would consider bullying. There is often "locker room reinforcement" where some of the leaders of the team will exert physical and emotional pressure on the low performers to improve and the methods used are frequently coercive in nature. Is this bullying? If so, I would have to admit "guilty" to your question.

 

[harlan]

No. I never bullied anyone. Dominated, yes. There is a difference. In interpersonal relationships, whether it's by birth order or socially defined roles or genetic determinism for species survival, people will sort out hierarchies. Some don't even need to do anything, much less resort to violence or aggression, to be acknowledged.

Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?

Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They're just learning how to relate to each other. As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.

Am I completely off base?

 

[Carol]

Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?

Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They're just learning how to relate to each other. As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.

Am I completely off base?

Yes, I can honestly say there is no one around anywhere that would remember me as a bully as a child. As an adult, however, my personality became a lot more aggressive.

 

[Steve]

How do you define bullying personally, Steve? I think some have too liberal of a definition... not inviting someone to a party does not constitute bullying in my book. Saying a few unkind words here or there does not necessarily do it for me either.

Consider team sports like American football. I played it up through high school and it's rife with what many would consider bullying. There is often "locker room reinforcement" where some of the leaders of the team will exert physical and emotional pressure on the low performers to improve and the methods used are frequently coercive in nature. Is this bullying? If so, I would have to admit "guilty" to your question.

I'm not talking about any official definition. I'm asking you guys to consider for a moment whether someone else might be telling stories from their youth in which YOU are the bully. Right or wrong, just or unjust and regardless of intent.

It's really a question just to get people to think a little outside their own perspective.

This question comes from my own experiences as a youth, but also from working with my son. There was a time a few years back... 5th grade. He was having real problems with this particular boy in the school who was bullying him. This kid was provoking my son and generally just making his life miserable. Turns out, though, that after talking to the counselor and eventually working with the other boy's parents, the OTHER boy was complaining about my son. In his mind, my son was bullying HIM. The reality was, as is often the case, somewhere in between. Both kids were unsuccessfully trying to cope with a personality that conflicted with their own. As kids, they just didn't have the social tools necessary to handle the situation and as a result, the situation got worse and worse until adult intervention became necessary. They ended up being pretty good friends, but only AFTER they each realized what was happening and got some coaching.

While I'll roll with whatever direction this thread goes, one of the central points I'm trying to explore is one of perspective. While there are some people who are born losers, I believe these people are few and far between. Most kids whom we remember as being bullies were just kids making bad decisions. Whether someone is a bully or not really has a lot to do with which side of THAT SPECIFIC relationship you were on. I'm suggesting that most kids are BOTH bullied and bullies depending upon who you ask.

What I'm actually beginning to wonder, though, is whether it's really more of a case where the bullied become bullies in their adult lives. At least for some.

 

[dancingalone]

This question comes from my own experiences as a youth, but also from working with my son. There was a time a few years back... 5th grade. He was having real problems with this particular boy in the school who was bullying him. This kid was provoking my son and generally just making his life miserable. Turns out, though, that after talking to the counselor and eventually working with the other boy's parents, the OTHER boy was complaining about my son. In his mind, my son was bullying HIM. The reality was, as is often the case, somewhere in between. Both kids were unsuccessfully trying to cope with a personality that conflicted with their own. As kids, they just didn't have the social tools necessary to handle the situation and as a result, the situation got worse and worse until adult intervention became necessary. They ended up being pretty good friends, but only AFTER they each realized what was happening and got some coaching.

While I'll roll with whatever direction this thread goes, one of the central points I'm trying to explore is one of perspective. While there are some people who are born losers, I believe these people are few and far between. Most kids whom we remember as being bullies were just kids making bad decisions. Whether someone is a bully or not really has a lot to do with which side of THAT SPECIFIC relationship you were on. I'm suggesting that most kids are BOTH bullied and bullies depending upon who you ask.

What I'm actually beginning to wonder, though, is whether it's really more of a case where the bullied become bullies in their adult lives. At least for some.

Oh, I don't think it's such a 2-way street in most cases. I think bullies know they are bullying their victims, even if they won't admit it to people in authority or those in guidance roles when called to the carpet on it.

What happened with your son is surely the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who has attended public school in the US has seen smaller, weaker kids being shoved, prodded, or humiliated by bigger, stronger, more popular kids. Why? Because they can, and it's a form of alpha dominance display. The bullying occurs only in one direction from what I have seen. Usually, the weaker kid has no real recourse at all with the sad exception of the Columbine types.

 

[Marginal]

It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.

I wouldn't call MA a cure all. Karate didn't do much for me at all back in middle school. I think in general participating in a group activity where you find that not everyone in the world is a jerk is what helps the most. Since MA's tend to have rules of conduct attached to them, you're not as likely to get harried by a classmate. Far easier to build up your self confidence in an environment you consider safe.

It's way easier to be less socially stunted with some sense of self worth.

 

[Steve]

Oh, I don't think it's such a 2-way street in most cases. I think bullies know they are bullying their victims, even if they won't admit it to people in authority or those in guidance roles when called to the carpet on it.

What happened with your son is surely the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who has attended public school in the US has seen smaller, weaker kids being shoved, prodded, or humiliated by bigger, stronger, more popular kids. Why? Because they can, and it's a form of alpha dominance display. The bullying occurs only in one direction from what I have seen. Usually, the weaker kid has no real recourse at all with the sad exception of the Columbine types.

Okay, I'll try a different tack here. What if you're wrong? I mean, having been bullied, you're really stuck in seeing things from that perspective. You're presuming to know why the bully is bullying. You're just guessing. You really have no idea. I've been on both sides of the fence.

Chalking it all up to a simple display of alpha dominance is, frankly, insulting to use in reference to any human being, child or not. It's a choice of language intended to dehumanize the kids who are bullying other kids so that it's easier to dismiss them. They're not humans, after all. They're bullies, completely subject to the whims of their base instincts. Let's corral them all and put them in jail, celebrating any misfortune that they might have in their adult lives. Suggesting that kids are slaves to animal instincts ignores the efforts that parents, educators and role models have in teaching them how to behave.

What I'm driving at is that both kids in a bullying situation are acting in a way that is anti-social. Bullying is an anti-social behavior, but so is whatever behavior invites persistent bullying. Honestly, I'm disheartened by the readiness so many people have to write off so many kids. I can at least understand some of the calls to action where bullying moves into the arena of harrassment or assault. But I've read on this board suggestions that all bullies be jailed.

 

[dancingalone]

Okay, I'll try a different tack here. What if you're wrong? I mean, having been bullied, you're really stuck in seeing things from that perspective. You're presuming to know why the bully is bullying. You're just guessing. You really have no idea. I've been on both sides of the fence.

By the same token, why must every bully have some deep-seated and reasonable motivation? And why must every victim also be a bully himself? I said I don't believe it's a 2-way street. That seems like a logical enough position.

Out of curiosity why do you think it must be, the example of your son notwithstanding?

Chalking it all up to a simple display of alpha dominance is, frankly, insulting to use in reference to any human being, child or not. It's a choice of language intended to dehumanize the kids who are bullying other kids so that it's easier to dismiss them. They're not humans, after all. They're bullies, completely subject to the whims of their base instincts. Let's corral them all and put them in jail, celebrating any misfortune that they might have in their adult lives. Suggesting that kids are slaves to animal instincts ignores the efforts that parents, educators and role models have in teaching them how to behave.

You see pack phenomenon time and time again. Kids can be entirely cruel to one another, regardless of what lessons their parents are trying to teach. It's jostling for position even if it's only in their minds, and truthfully children are not fully developed emotionally or mentally. It's not unreasonable to think that children might be more volatile or irrational from day to day.

It's not just children either. Adults don't like to swim against the current either, and it can be easy to ignore malicious behavior by others (as long as it's not against you!) if the target is someone seen as weak. Whatever our capacity for reason and thought, it's clear that reason is not the only motivation that drives our actions.

What I'm driving at is that both kids in a bullying situation are acting in a way that is anti-social. Bullying is an anti-social behavior, but so is whatever behavior invites persistent bullying. Honestly, I'm disheartened by the readiness so many people have to write off so many kids. I can at least understand some of the calls to action where bullying moves into the arena of harrassment or assault. But I've read on this board suggestions that all bullies be jailed.

Well, I generally understand what you are saying, but what would you have the victims do? They are precisely victims because they exhibit qualities that draws out the sharp teeth: they might be small or weak or ugly or have poor social skills. It's not like they can suddenly decide to be strong and personable. Given that reality, it should be no surprise why most everyone would rather address the problem of bullying by looking at the perpetrators themselves.

 

[Blade96]

It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.

May be true for some here but please ignore me with this one. I didnt even really know what ma was ....yes I watched the teenage mutant ninja turtles cartoon series when i was a teen (lol, dont laugh) with their Sensei, but I never knew it was ma or that it was called ma or even what ma was. Never even considered ma until last year. and that happened very quickly, for reasons I dont even know what started it. I know what triggered it - a movie of which my forum name is that name of the character. But I didnt plan to become a ma - it just happened. and it had nothig to do with bullies or bullying.

Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?

Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They're just learning how to relate to each other. As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.

Am I completely off base?

In jr highschool you often do what you do to survive. i was a part of a clique that sometimes bullied. and to be part of it - and it in turn protected me from bullies - i sometimes did it with them. Wasnt because i was mean, when i think about it now - it was for survival.

No. I never bullied anyone. Dominated, yes. There is a difference. In interpersonal relationships, whether it's by birth order or socially defined roles or genetic determinism for species survival, people will sort out hierarchies. Some don't even need to do anything, much less resort to violence or aggression, to be acknowledged.

Hierarchies arent the same as bullying. Hierarchies help promote social stability. we have a definite one in our Shotokan.

Well, I generally understand what you are saying, but what would you have the victims do? They are precisely victims because they exhibit qualities that draws out the sharp teeth: they might be small or weak or ugly or have poor social skills. It's not like they can suddenly decide to be strong and personable. Given that reality, it should be no surprise why most everyone would rather address the problem of bullying by looking at the perpetrators themselves.

very true!

and bullies often possess power....which is why they can bully. Its very very difficult for a weaker victim to take care of that themselves.

 

[harlan]

Somewhere, there is a vague memory, of 'bullies in brown shirts'....

Okay, I'll try a different tack here. What if you're wrong? I mean, having been bullied, you're really stuck in seeing things from that perspective. You're presuming to know why the bully is bullying. You're just guessing. You really have no idea. I've been on both sides of the fence.

Chalking it all up to a simple display of alpha dominance is, frankly, insulting to use in reference to any human being, child or not. It's a choice of language intended to dehumanize the kids who are bullying other kids so that it's easier to dismiss them. They're not humans, after all. They're bullies, completely subject to the whims of their base instincts. Let's corral them all and put them in jail, celebrating any misfortune that they might have in their adult lives. Suggesting that kids are slaves to animal instincts ignores the efforts that parents, educators and role models have in teaching them how to behave.

What I'm driving at is that both kids in a bullying situation are acting in a way that is anti-social. Bullying is an anti-social behavior, but so is whatever behavior invites persistent bullying. Honestly, I'm disheartened by the readiness so many people have to write off so many kids. I can at least understand some of the calls to action where bullying moves into the arena of harrassment or assault. But I've read on this board suggestions that all bullies be jailed.

 

[Gordon Nore]

The bullying occurs only in one direction from what I have seen. Usually, the weaker kid has no real recourse at all with the sad exception of the Columbine types.

I'm not so sure about the Columbine reference, dancingalone. A couple years back I read a review of two then published books that addressed some misconceptions of the rampage. Among these was that the perpetrators had been bullied -- indeed the authors asserted that they themselves had intimidated others for sometime, which is not to say they weren't both dishing it out and taking it. One of the authors, a journalist, chipped away at various misinformation that became crystallized in the early reporting of the event.

But I raise Columbine for another reason: The idea that extremely bullied children might themselves resort to violence, I think, drives much of the current angst about bullies and bullying in schools and in the media. Many times over the years, I've heard people reference Columbine as an example of tortured souls striking back in rage, as if the events in Littleton were a cautionary tale.

I still take bullying very seriously for professional reasons, but I don't know if the issue is always being discussed and dealt with for the best reasons.

I'll dig around and see if I can cite a source.

 

[jks9199]

There's a lot of better information regarding Columbine than the popular mythology; Harris & Klebold weren't the bullied outsiders commonly depicted. They were disturbed, no doubt about that, and there were plenty of missed signs. But the truth is that it's not nearly a simple case... just like there's no simple way to address bullying.

 

[Steve]

Somewhere, there is a vague memory, of 'bullies in brown shirts'....

I'm completely missing the message here. If it's a reference, it's over my head.

 

[Steve]

In jr highschool you often do what you do to survive. i was a part of a clique that sometimes bullied. and to be part of it - and it in turn protected me from bullies - i sometimes did it with them. Wasnt because i was mean, when i think about it now - it was for survival.

Exactly the kind of thing I was mentioning before. I'd put most kids in the same boat.

and bullies often possess power....which is why they can bully. Its very very difficult for a weaker victim to take care of that themselves.

But you said yourself that you took part in bullying other kids. Why then don't you consider yourself a bully? Blade, this is EXACTLY what I was driving at... this disconnect between the bullying behavior and people who consider themselves to be bullies.

 

[harlan]

Sorry...just musing.

The way I look at it, there have always been bullies, and there will always be bullies. They will always find avenues to perpetrate violence on the weak, or the marginalized (sp?), and thrive when ignored or dismissed by apologist arguments. Bullies today, Nazis tomorrow. Zero tolerance.

 

[Steve]

Sorry...just musing.

The way I look at it, there have always been bullies, and there will always be bullies. They will always find avenues to perpetrate violence on the weak, or the marginalized (sp?), and thrive when ignored or dismissed by apologist arguments. Bullies today, Nazis tomorrow. Zero tolerance.

Okay. So just so we are clear. You're calling me an apologist as well as a Nazi. And you also happen to be calling blade a Nazi too. Don't you think there's sone room to reconsider?

 

[harlan]

I inferred no such thing. I think my post was clear: bullies unchecked today are potentially bigger problems tomorrow. Let me state for the record that bullies exist...my problem is with people abrogating social responsibility for the larger good. For individuals who are aware that these things happen...and not doing anything about it. I feel bad about that girl because she was weak, and it was the responsibility of the school administration, in whom we are required by law to entrust our children for schooling, to keep her safe. Of course, having knowledge of the superintendent, I'm not surprised. It was 'do nothing', and this is the result.

http://onlyintherepublicofamherst.blogspot.com/2010/04/gus-sayer-just-go-i-dont-care-how-just.html

However, I see the discussion is a topic close to your heart, and opposing opinions taken as hostile, and will withdraw.

 

[Steve]

I inferred no such thing.

LOL... no, it wasn't implied at all. I have already admitted to being both bullied and bullying others. Blade96 did, too. Zero tolerance. Bullies today, nazis tomorrow.

It is blatant, not implied at all. I was pretty sure you didn't MEAN those things, but be that as it may, that it exactly what you wrote.

 

[Steve]

I inferred no such thing. I think my post was clear: bullies unchecked today are potentially bigger problems tomorrow. Let me state for the record that bullies exist...my problem is with people abrogating social responsibility for the larger good. For individuals who are aware that these things happen...and not doing anything about it. I feel bad about that girl because she was weak, and it was the responsibility of the school administration, in whom we are required by law to entrust our children for schooling, to keep her safe. Of course, having knowledge of the superintendent, I'm not surprised. It was 'do nothing', and this is the result.

http://onlyintherepublicofamherst.blogspot.com/2010/04/gus-sayer-just-go-i-dont-care-how-just.html

However, I see the discussion is a topic close to your heart, and opposing opinions taken as hostile, and will withdraw.

Okay, Harlan. I noticed that you edited your post after I had already replied.

The topic is important to me, of course, but I'm not angry, nor do I believe I'm being hostile. I'm genuinely sorry you feel that's the case. I do believe that you should consider your words more carefully. Honestly, I'm not sure how one could misunderstand your intent. It continues to seem that clear to me.

I would also like to remind you that I have from the beginning tried to make it clear that adult intervention is absolutely appropriate, although I would advocate indirect intervention in most cases.

I guess, if anything, it appears to me that you are the one getting a little heated, and I think that's a shame because the discussion was interesting and appeared to me to be moving forward, until you called me a nazi.

 

[grydth]

Folks, I'd strongly suggest you leave any references to the SA/Brown Shirts/ Nazis out of this thread. I am very aware of what they were and what they did - it doesn't belong here. Period.

I have never seen one instance of Nazis being brought up where the discussion didn't go south in a hurry and an otherwise good thread wound up being locked.

If a moderator needs to intervene, there could be consequences...