Bullying

[Archangel M]

While we all love our children, teaching them that they are all precious little snowflakes that are more precious than any other flake out there is doing them no favors. Not that this is the case in all of these situations, but I see it all too often.

 

[WC_lun]

I was a small, wierd looking kid that was the new kid a lot due to my father being military. I could not say anything at home or I would have been beat there. eventually I made a concious decision that a butt whooping by some kid was preferable to living life as a victim. I quit getting bullied when the bullies realized I was a risk to thier ego.

I can see where many of the bullies are victims also, but it doesn't really excuse the behaviour. I do believe part of the problem is there is very little real consequences for the bullies. Usually, if anything, they get thier parents called. What if the parents don't care...or even worse, approve of thier child's behaviour? Nothing get resolved and the bully suffers no repurcussions for thier behaviour so it continues or gets worse. In some cases it snowballs until the victim of that violence resorts to violence themselves, either on thier tormentors, themselves, or innocents.

In the adult world it isn't as easy to be a bully. Take it too far and you can do jail time, get your butt whooped, or get shot. Most people know this and so it isn't as prevailant. Make it known to kids as well. If a kid is bullying other kids, put the bully in detention. They keep doing it, expell them. No coddling or making excuse for them. No repeated chances.

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally Posted by stevebjj
Are you kidding me? You're seriously suggesting that kids commit suicide because they have an overdeveloped sense of self worth?

In the sense that embarrassment, or an assault on their self-esteem results in shootings or suicide?

Yup.

Agreed with Arch, kids can be amazingly cruel and intuitively know how to push the right button on their intended victim to tear down that self-esteem in a heartbeat. My antagonists sure did, and yeah if I didn't think about shooting myself... I'd wanted to shoot THEM! ( :miffer: bastards) but I didn't. And I survived and I made it through and in retrospect learned how to build myself back up to where I don't take crap off of nobody.

While we all love our children, teaching them that they are all precious little snowflakes that are more precious than any other flake out there is doing them no favors. Not that this is the case in all of these situations, but I see it all too often.

Parents. Parents worry either not enough or too much. Sure they want their child to be happy and want them to do the best that they can do in everything they do. Some more than others.
But I think parents need to realize that sometimes a fall, a bad day can be good for a kid if they're taught how to take it in the right context.
Kids are going to fight, it's human nature manifest to be violent to one another. It's maturity, growing into adult hood with lessons learned from those fights that will help (in part) determine the content of their character. If the child learns the RIGHT lessons then well... that speaks for itself, imo.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence. Are you saying that you believe bullying was the cause for a large percentage of teen suicides or that bullying doesn't lead to suicide? The way it reads, it looks like you're suggesting that bullying is the cause for a large percentage of teen suicides, and if so, I'd agree.

Suicide is a result of ongoing, clinical depression. Teens experience depression largely in only a few different ways: physical or mental illness, drug addiction, family trouble (abuse, divorce, etc), and rejection or fear of rejection by peers (including bullying and coping with homosexuality). Suicide is the third leading cause of death among teenagers, with car accidents being first and homocide being second. It's a big deal.

And in 2010, I think it's a real damned shame that kids who are struggling with the idea that they are gay are still being demonized to the point that they can't envision a life in which they could be happy and healthy.

A close friend committed suicide in our sophomore year because of home issues and another close friend took his life in our senior year because of how his parents and some peers reacted when he told them he was gay.

I disagree completely that anyone is sensationalizing bullying. If anything, I don't think we're making a big enough deal about it. With kids being as plugged in as they are, constantly barraged by input and commentary from their peers, it's critical for parents to be aware of what their kids are into.

Once again, I just think that most kids bully and most kids are bullied to some degree or another. If it gets to the point where a child is bullying another child to the point that suicide is involved, we've failed both of those kids completely. One is dead and the other's life is basically ruined.

You disagree there has been sensationalism about bullying as of late? I can't remember the media making a big deal about bullying when I was in school. In any event, the latest sensationalism is a good thing. I wasn't saying the problem didn't exist.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

This "self-esteem" stuff is in the same neighborhood as the "respect" crap kids spout. You EARN respect..you are not born entitled to it. Part of the entitlement culture IMO.

I really don't think you should have to earn respect. People should be taught to show respect as children, and show it at all times. Isn't that what the martial Arts is supposed to teach?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

In the sense that embarrassment, or an assault on their self-esteem results in shootings or suicide?

Yup.

I would put that in the catagory of poor emotional and perceptual fitness.
Sean

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure I'm even on the same planet to comprehend what's being said here.

WC_lun, did you just say that you were beaten at home? If so, I am really, really sorry.

ToD, can you just summarize your point for me again? I'm not sure whether you think that bullying is more or less of a problem than it was when you were a kid, and whether you think that highlighting extreme cases is bad, good or indifferent. I guess I can just say that I don't think that bullying is being sensationalized. That suggests that it's being overstated in the media. If anything, the pervasive nature of bullying now, and the enduring consequences of bullying on the internet, are understated in the media. If I get a video of you and put it on the internet, it's there forever. FOREVER. If I don't like you and get some video footage of you in that's even appears to be compromising, it will follow you forever.

That lady who dumped the cat into the garbage will have a hard time ever putting that behind her because it's all over the internet. Sure, it will die down for a while, until someone at work or in her personal life makes the connection, then a quick Google search later and it's all right back. Same with the kid who was video taped without his knowledge. Once it was on the internet, there's no taking it back. It's out there. That kid who was taped by his roommate was looking at a life where that video tracked him forever.

Add 24/7 access via texting, social networking, microblogging and every other way that kids can judge and there can be little refuge.

Ultimately, if anything, I think that the issue is understated in the media, so in my own opinion, the issue is the opposite of sensationalized.

And archangel, I have no idea at all where you're coming from. I honestly can't understand how anyone can say that a kid so depressed that he commits suicide is suffering from, in your words, an overdeveloped sense of self worth. Do the troops driven to suicide in Afghanistan and Iraq also suffer from an overdeveloped sense of self worth?

MA-Caver, you say you agree with Archangel? I don't get it. You think that you suffered from an over developed sense of self worth? You admit that you considered shooting yourself and them. Is that because you had an overdeveloped ego?

As for the rest, I think that most parents do an okay job, and most kids are good kids. On one hand, a common thread here is that many of you seem to think that bullying is no big deal. On the other, you guys seem to believe that most kids are rotten and most parents are unfit. I disagree with both of those statements. I think most kids are healthy, happy and well taken care of. Could some parents be more attentive? Sure. But are they any less attentive than their parents? Probably not. We tend to raise our kids much as we were raised.

Is bullying more common now then when we were in school? probably not. But is it more damaging? Yeah. The consequences are graver because kids often have no refuge. They have no opportunity to gain perspective.

 

[Steve]

I really don't think you should have to earn respect. People should be taught to show respect as children, and show it at all times. Isn't that what the martial Arts is supposed to teach?
Sean

Bit of an aside, but I think there's a difference between treating people with respect and respecting someone as a person. I can treat someone I don't respect in a respectful manner. Sometimes, the best we can do is to be polite.

 

[MJS]

You disagree there has been sensationalism about bullying as of late? I can't remember the media making a big deal about bullying when I was in school. In any event, the latest sensationalism is a good thing. I wasn't saying the problem didn't exist.
Sean

You're right....a big deal wasn't made of it when you or I or anyone else was in school. The big deal today is that kids are killing themselves. As I said already, bullying is nothing new....kids killing themselves because some punks are getting off on it, is whats new.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You're right....a big deal wasn't made of it when you or I or anyone else was in school. The big deal today is that kids are killing themselves. As I said already, bullying is nothing new....kids killing themselves because some punks are getting off on it, is whats new.

I do conceed the fact that your whole life can now be made public is new, but I do think bullying played a role in some teenage scucides of the past. I may be wrong.
sean

 

[MJS]

I do conceed the fact that your whole life can now be made public is new, but I do think bullying played a role in some teenage scucides of the past. I may be wrong.
sean

Do I have stats to back this? Nope. Just saying that after 12yrs of school, it was rare that I heard of a suicide if any at all, due to bullying. Of course, as we all know, times change.

Today, we have more tools than we did in the past. Facebook, Myspace, are just a few of the tools that kids use to cyber bully others.

 

[teekin]

I'm not sure I'm even on the same planet to comprehend what's being said here.

WC_lun, did you just say that you were beaten at home? If so, I am really, really sorry.

ToD, can you just summarize your point for me again? I'm not sure whether you think that bullying is more or less of a problem than it was when you were a kid, and whether you think that highlighting extreme cases is bad, good or indifferent. I guess I can just say that I don't think that bullying is being sensationalized. That suggests that it's being overstated in the media. If anything, the pervasive nature of bullying now, and the enduring consequences of bullying on the internet, are understated in the media. If I get a video of you and put it on the internet, it's there forever. FOREVER. If I don't like you and get some video footage of you in that's even appears to be compromising, it will follow you forever.

That lady who dumped the cat into the garbage will have a hard time ever putting that behind her because it's all over the internet. Sure, it will die down for a while, until someone at work or in her personal life makes the connection, then a quick Google search later and it's all right back. Same with the kid who was video taped without his knowledge. Once it was on the internet, there's no taking it back. It's out there. That kid who was taped by his roommate was looking at a life where that video tracked him forever.

Add 24/7 access via texting, social networking, microblogging and every other way that kids can judge and there can be little refuge.

Ultimately, if anything, I think that the issue is understated in the media, so in my own opinion, the issue is the opposite of sensationalized.

And archangel, I have no idea at all where you're coming from. I honestly can't understand how anyone can say that a kid so depressed that he commits suicide is suffering from, in your words, an overdeveloped sense of self worth. Do the troops driven to suicide in Afghanistan and Iraq also suffer from an overdeveloped sense of self worth?

MA-Caver, you say you agree with Archangel? I don't get it. You think that you suffered from an over developed sense of self worth? You admit that you considered shooting yourself and them. Is that because you had an overdeveloped ego?

As for the rest, I think that most parents do an okay job, and most kids are good kids. On one hand, a common thread here is that many of you seem to think that bullying is no big deal. On the other, you guys seem to believe that most kids are rotten and most parents are unfit. I disagree with both of those statements. I think most kids are healthy, happy and well taken care of. Could some parents be more attentive? Sure. But are they any less attentive than their parents? Probably not. We tend to raise our kids much as we were raised.

Is bullying more common now then when we were in school? probably not. But is it more damaging? Yeah. The consequences are graver because kids often have no refuge. They have no opportunity to gain perspective.

Steve I agree with you in some regard and hear what you are saying but I think if a child is raised to be confident, love, know they are loved and think for themsleves the sheer silliness of what is on the web ala FaceBook and MySpace won't make one whit of difference. The place they gain perspective is from the Real world, not the cyber/psyudo world. The learn from real face to face interactions with real people not on line interaction with people who may or may not be what they claim. It's so easy to hide behind a keyboard and lie your **** off either about yourself of another. The fact that you call me a zebra on line doesn't in any way make me a zebra in real life. As long as I have a strong sense of self it doesn`t matter What name you call me, what you write, what you show. It is allways more a reflection of your mind than anything to do with me.
And yes this has been done to me. Remember the Urban Dictionary defintions of our names thread ( I laughed my *** off when I found out who posted the ummmm rather interesting one of mine)and it was was just the tip of the iceberg. What else was on line was REALLY sick and twisted but very very funny too.

The parents and parenting make all the difference in the world.

Lori

 

[Archangel M]

"no refuge"??

We are now "forced" to go on the internet and search for what is being said about us?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Steve I agree with you in some regard and hear what you are saying but I think if a child is raised to be confident, love, know they are loved and think for themsleves the sheer silliness of what is on the web ala FaceBook and MySpace won't make one whit of difference. The place they gain perspective is from the Real world, not the cyber/psyudo world. The learn from real face to face interactions with real people not on line interaction with people who may or may not be what they claim. It's so easy to hide behind a keyboard and lie your **** off either about yourself of another. The fact that you call me a zebra on line doesn't in any way make me a zebra in real life. As long as I have a strong sense of self it doesn`t matter What name you call me, what you write, what you show. It is allways more a reflection of your mind than anything to do with me.
And yes this has been done to me. Remember the Urban Dictionary defintions of our names thread ( I laughed my *** off when I found out who posted the ummmm rather interesting one of mine)and it was was just the tip of the iceberg. What else was on line was REALLY sick and twisted but very very funny too.

The parents and parenting make all the difference in the world.

Lori

First of all, the bolded part is spot on.

However, you are only half right about the other part. What anonymous others think about me is indeed not relevant to how I should feel. However, what is on the internet stays on the internet forever.

Anyone who googles 'Karen Owen', ever will find out that she is the girl who created a powerpoint with names and pics of the people she had sex with in college, with detailed descriptions of them and their performance, and a numerical rating.

This will forever haunt her.
Her (potential) future boyfriends will find this.
Her future employer will find it.
Her family will find it.
So all in all, this will have a tremendous impact on her life, regardless of how she feels about herself in relation to this incident.. It doesn't matter if she still thinks it was funny or not and it doesn't matter how she feels about it or if she comes to grips with this. Other people will influence her life based on that one stupid decision.

I think this was what steve was getting at.

 

[yardmeat]

I've worked in suicide prevention (QPR) for about four years now. I've lost two friends to suicide. Few people know this but, in the US, suicides outnumber homicides about two to one.



I am not here to say that the bullies in these situations are innocent. They are cruel, inhumane, and often criminal. They should be held accountable for their behavior, but they should not (with rare exception) be held accountable for the behavior of those that they tease. Little can come of the blame game in these situations. The best we can do is ask ourselves if we know anyone who is in danger and do our best to help.

 

[Steve]

Steve I agree with you in some regard and hear what you are saying but I think if a child is raised to be confident, love, know they are loved and think for themsleves the sheer silliness of what is on the web ala FaceBook and MySpace won't make one whit of difference. The place they gain perspective is from the Real world, not the cyber/psyudo world. The learn from real face to face interactions with real people not on line interaction with people who may or may not be what they claim. It's so easy to hide behind a keyboard and lie your **** off either about yourself of another. The fact that you call me a zebra on line doesn't in any way make me a zebra in real life. As long as I have a strong sense of self it doesn`t matter What name you call me, what you write, what you show. It is allways more a reflection of your mind than anything to do with me.
And yes this has been done to me. Remember the Urban Dictionary defintions of our names thread ( I laughed my *** off when I found out who posted the ummmm rather interesting one of mine)and it was was just the tip of the iceberg. What else was on line was REALLY sick and twisted but very very funny too.

The parents and parenting make all the difference in the world.

Lori

Parents make a big difference. I've never said otherwise. I also want to be clear that I don't want to overstate the situation. It's a big deal, in my book, but as I said before, MOST kids are happy, healthy and well adjusted and MOST parents are doing the best they can to be good parents. I believe this.

But for kids who ARE bullied, the bullying can be relentless for the reasons I said before. Also, parents are only part of the equation, and as a child moves into adolescence, other people begin to exert influence. School administrators, teachers and peers gain a foothold. Also, particularly in the social experiment we call primary education, what's "true" is often far less important than what your peers believe is true.

Archangel, just pretend for a second that you live in the USA circa 2010, a country in which teenagers are almost all involved with social networking to some degree or another, have cell phones that send these things called text messages and, by and large, ARE concerned about what their peers think of them.

Bruno, that's it exactly. While it's possible, likely even, that a child can overcome a video or something like that posted on the internet, he or she has to survive it first. And if a video is followed by another video, or by relentless text messages, emails, facebook postings or a combination of them all, I'd say most adults would have a hard time coping with it.

 

[Steve]

Do I have stats to back this? Nope. Just saying that after 12yrs of school, it was rare that I heard of a suicide if any at all, due to bullying. Of course, as we all know, times change.

Today, we have more tools than we did in the past. Facebook, Myspace, are just a few of the tools that kids use to cyber bully others.

Successful suicides are relatively rare, while suicide attempts, whether earnest attempts or not, are startlingly common.

Personally, even in situations where a person commits suicide, even as a plea for help more than a sincere desire for death, suggests that the kid is depressed and needs some help.

 

[MJS]

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-choate-facebook-block-1015-20101014,0,5247289.story

The popular Facebook social networking website has been blocked at Choate Rosemary Hall after students posted "fairly mean things" about classmates on the site.
Mary Verselli, a spokeswoman for the school, said Facebook was blocked from the school network on Oct. 5 because six students violated an acceptable-use policy.
"It was to give the kids a 'time-out' to think about how they're communicating online," she said.

 

[Steve]

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-choate-facebook-block-1015-20101014,0,5247289.story

Good policy, but I wonder how many of those kids have facebook on their phones?

Like it or not, guys, social networking isn't going away. It's not a fad.

 

[MJS]

Successful suicides are relatively rare, while suicide attempts, whether earnest attempts or not, are startlingly common.

Personally, even in situations where a person commits suicide, even as a plea for help more than a sincere desire for death, suggests that the kid is depressed and needs some help.

I recall a case in CT, in which a kid was bullied relentlessly...he hung himself. I forget where this other incident happened, but I recall a case, in which a grown woman created a fake profile, pretending to be a boy. "She" started talking to this girl, leading her on and on, until one day, "She" said that she no longer liked the girl, and she'd be better off dead...that girl killed herself.

Of course these are 2 examples of many, so I'm not disagreeing with you on what you said.

Successful, not successful....either way, its a shame.