On Bullies and the Bullied

[harlan]

As a product of the '60's and '70's - yes. I do think things have changed. And for the record, I do think that there has always been a gender difference in the way bullying, harrassment and violence (mental, social, physical, etc.) is acted out. Girls are worse, and I think the cyber aspect intensifies the clique.

H'mm... A couple of comments mentioned decades.

Makes me wonder. I graduated HS in the mid-to-late 80s. Is my perception and my opinion on this issue shaped by the times I grew up in? Are things different -- and have they been different since?

 

[Stac3y]

It's an interesting post, but I've yet to see any evidence anywhere of bullies that turned out to be sterling adults.

Yep, my childhood bully turned out to be a real nasty piece of work as an adult. I think that most of the time, rotten kids, unless there's some kind of intervention (which may be self-applied), grow into rotten adults.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Yep, my childhood bully turned out to be a real nasty piece of work as an adult. I think that most of the time, rotten kids, unless there's some kind of intervention (which may be self-applied), grow into rotten adults.

I used to wonder quite a bit what happened with the students who consistently bullied me during middle school. Did they ever realize the impact it had? Did they care? Were their children bullied later, and how did they respond?

Imponderables. If I really wanted to know, I might have gone to homecoming. Never bothered.

 

[dancingalone]

I used to wonder quite a bit what happened with the students who consistently bullied me during middle school. Did they ever realize the impact it had? Did they care? Were their children bullied later, and how did they respond?

Imponderables. If I really wanted to know, I might have gone to homecoming. Never bothered.

I attended my high school reunion a few years ago. Lots of interesting changes in my classmates over the years....

I'll share one short vignette. My chemistry lab partner in HS was an awkward, unpopular boy with poor social skills. I still remember him looking down at the floor in obvious pain as we sorted up in threes, expecting obviously to be left unpicked. On a whim, I asked him if he wanted to join my group to complete the trio and he brightened up immediately. At our reunion, he mentioned it and thanked me. He's now married with three kids.

I'm now pained that I didn't make more of an effort to make his days easier back when we were in school together. I know he didn't have the best experiences back then...

 

[Blade96]

I dont really have any friends, not many, and i was bullied. What did I do? I blamed myself. You're feeling bad, you dont like yourself, you're gonna blame yourself. This is actually common among people who are abused and bullied, to blame yourself. I am afraid that stevebjj, though he might have good intentions by writing this thread, it might not actually help. It doesnt help when I verbalize to my family (out of needing someone to talk to) and they have blamed me over the years. 'well what are you doing or not doing'? I dont go out much and have a really hard time making friends because I'm always rejected. and only ever had one bf in my life and that was for only 6 months. five years ago. I still blame myself and have lots of negative thoughts like i think my social skills must be crap because people tend to avoid me. My self esteem is crap because of how people treat me. I dont think people who are in my situation need to hear that it is their fault that there is something about THEM that escalated the situation.

I should really go to the brown belts in my dojo as well as my Sandan friend and Yondan friend who actually did make an attempt (after ignoring me when i was a white belt) to be my friends as well as my senseis who favor me and pay me a lot of attention. One of my senseis said 'Idk why I liked you - Maybe its your personality - just liked ya.' You have no idea how good that made me feel after having to suffer being rejected by people all my life and feeling isolated from the world. and actually being able to go to the bars and have a drink with them.

When I took my sandan out for a beer - that was the first time I ever did that for anyone.

I think one of the most healing things you can say to someone who has been a victim is, "Its not your fault"

Shotokan karate-do is much easier for me than making friends. I am shy and afraid of people because of being rejected and judged all the time because I am different. but in shotokan I am good at it and that makes me feel good.

I am a good person (i think you people can tell that) Maybe if I was a jerk or something, I might be able to understand most people's coldness towards me.

But I dont have a problem admitting that I really dont care for most people as a result and I dont trust them at all. I dont really talk to anybody but i wont be a jerk about it though. I'd rather avoid people cause I know what happens most of the time.

I dont see why it would be my fault though. and it really doesnt help me or my self esteem when I do blame myself (which is a lot)

 

[Gordon Nore]

Shotokan karate-do is much easier for me than making friends. I am shy and afraid of people because of being rejected and judged all the time because I am different. but in shotokan I am good at it and that makes me feel good.

Martial arts training, which I tried briefly in my late twenties, but then in earnest in my mid-thirties, was enormously cathartic. One of the things that isolated me from peers was a lack of interest in sports and an obvious lack of ability. The one sport I was good at and enjoyed was baseball. Growing up in Canada, though, the hockey season takes up a big chunk of the year. Here you can play hockey and get heatstroke on the same day. So I sort of had something in common with my peers around May!

Doing the MA training and pursuing it to the point of competing successfully, teaching, achieving my black belt taught me that I am an athlete. To achieve the latter step of earning a dan in my late forties was quite empowering. I confess wondering if some of my classmates were not by this time bloated couch potatoes living off of past glories. The mind wanders sometimes.

It may not be possible for parents and educators to intervene to the extent that a child who is bullied is absolutely insulated from his tormentors. There has to be an effort to help that kid develop confidence in him or herself too. The bullies are always going to be there, and we do have to teach kids resilience, which by no means excuses behaviour which is cruel and anti-social.

 

[Steve]

I attended my high school reunion a few years ago. Lots of interesting changes in my classmates over the years....

I'll share one short vignette. My chemistry lab partner in HS was an awkward, unpopular boy with poor social skills. I still remember him looking down at the floor in obvious pain as we sorted up in threes, expecting obviously to be left unpicked. On a whim, I asked him if he wanted to join my group to complete the trio and he brightened up immediately. At our reunion, he mentioned it and thanked me. He's now married with three kids.

I'm now pained that I didn't make more of an effort to make his days easier back when we were in school together. I know he didn't have the best experiences back then...

These are exactly the kinds of life lessons I'm talking about. While you weren't a bully per se, you could have been nicer. The simple act of kindness you admit was done on a whim is something you both remembered, and from it you both learned something.

This is a great example of the second point I made in the OP. Kids figure things out.

I should really go to the brown belts in my dojo as well as my Sandan friend and Yondan friend who actually did make an attempt (after ignoring me when i was a white belt) to be my friends as well as my senseis who favor me and pay me a lot of attention. One of my senseis said 'Idk why I liked you - Maybe its your personality - just liked ya.' You have no idea how good that made me feel after having to suffer being rejected by people all my life and feeling isolated from the world. and actually being able to go to the bars and have a drink with them.

When I took my sandan out for a beer - that was the first time I ever did that for anyone.

I think one of the most healing things you can say to someone who has been a victim is, "Its not your fault"

Shotokan karate-do is much easier for me than making friends. I am shy and afraid of people because of being rejected and judged all the time because I am different. but in shotokan I am good at it and that makes me feel good.

I am a good person (i think you people can tell that) Maybe if I was a jerk or something, I might be able to understand most people's coldness towards me.

But I dont have a problem admitting that I really dont care for most people as a result and I dont trust them at all. I dont really talk to anybody but i wont be a jerk about it though. I'd rather avoid people cause I know what happens most of the time.

I dont see why it would be my fault though. and it really doesnt help me or my self esteem when I do blame myself (which is a lot)

There's a lot going on in this post, Blade. I'll try to tackle just a couple of the items.

First, I think it's critical to tackle these things while people are younger. Kids are actively learning social skills, while adults pretty much either have them or not. As we get older, the relationships just get more complicated.

One of the things I think is critical and your stories highlight is that kids really need at least one good friend, someone whom they can relax around and let down their guard. This is one area where adults can really be useful, helping kids make friends like this.

Another thing that I noticed in your post is your use of words like 'fault' and 'blame'. I've never suggested that the victims of bullying are at fault or are to blame. What i'm suggesting is that they share some responsibility, and as such can take actions that will affect the situation.

For example, you mention some of the things you're doing now that are different than when you were a kid, and the results are different as well. There are behaviors that are destructive to getting along with people, and what I'm suggesting is that there are times when a person who is bullied take an honest, objective look at the situation and ask themselves, "Okay. Something's got to change. What can I do to change my situation?" Adults can help, but at some point, the child needs to become an active participant instead of a passive recipient.

Here's another metaphor. I don't know about elsewhere, but in the USA it's commonly believed that if you're hit from behind in a car accident, the person who rear-ended you is at fault. They didn't stop in time. They ran into the back of my car. They're at fault.

But if you are 20 years old, have been driving for 4 years or so, and have been rear-ended 10 times, do you honestly believe that you are in no way contributing to the situation? There's something... some behavior... something that you're doing that is putting you at risk for these types of accidents.

Whether you're "at fault" in these accidents or not, wouldn't you at some point start looking around for things that you can do to stop getting into accidents?

Martial arts training, which I tried briefly in my late twenties, but then in earnest in my mid-thirties, was enormously cathartic. One of the things that isolated me from peers was a lack of interest in sports and an obvious lack of ability. The one sport I was good at and enjoyed was baseball. Growing up in Canada, though, the hockey season takes up a big chunk of the year. Here you can play hockey and get heatstroke on the same day. So I sort of had something in common with my peers around May!

Doing the MA training and pursuing it to the point of competing successfully, teaching, achieving my black belt taught me that I am an athlete. To achieve the latter step of earning a dan in my late forties was quite empowering. I confess wondering if some of my classmates were not by this time bloated couch potatoes living off of past glories. The mind wanders sometimes.

It may not be possible for parents and educators to intervene to the extent that a child who is bullied is absolutely insulated from his tormentors. There has to be an effort to help that kid develop confidence in him or herself too. The bullies are always going to be there, and we do have to teach kids resilience, which by no means excuses behaviour which is cruel and anti-social.

This last part is so important, Gordon. Why would we want to insulate our kids? I'd MUCH rather teach them the skills they'll need to get along. This includes anti-social behavior of all kinds, whether cruel to others or cruel to themselves. It seems to me that we often focus on punishing the anti-social behavior of bullies, rather than working to teach better social skills to all of the kids.

After all, it's often anti-social behavior that GETS kids bullied. It's just manifesting differently.

 

[Blade96]

Martial arts training, which I tried briefly in my late twenties, but then in earnest in my mid-thirties, was enormously cathartic. One of the things that isolated me from peers was a lack of interest in sports and an obvious lack of ability. The one sport I was good at and enjoyed was baseball. Growing up in Canada, though, the hockey season takes up a big chunk of the year. Here you can play hockey and get heatstroke on the same day. So I sort of had something in common with my peers around May!

Doing the MA training and pursuing it to the point of competing successfully, teaching, achieving my black belt taught me that I am an athlete. To achieve the latter step of earning a dan in my late forties was quite empowering. I confess wondering if some of my classmates were not by this time bloated couch potatoes living off of past glories. The mind wanders sometimes.

My MA training and that I competed rather successfully in my first Kata competition, also earning my first belt, yellow, also taught me that I also am an athlete. While I wasnt isolated because i wasnt into sports (I loved hockey and sometimes the same bullies who made my life hell would also praise my hockey knowledge and the fact that i was a really good at reading and could do schoolwork well, also, when we played soccer I was pretty good at being the goalie and they would praise that. Go figure), I hear ya.

Btw I also hear ya in that karma is a *****. I learned a long time later that some of these people who hurt me were having a downward spiral through life, got a house of kids and especially not much of a great life in the case of THE BIGGEST bully of them all, kids and a sucky life, while I am out earning gold medals, getting university degree, and earning belts in karate

One of the things I think is critical and your stories highlight is that kids really need at least one good friend, someone whom they can relax around and let down their guard. This is one area where adults can really be useful, helping kids make friends like this.

There are behaviors that are destructive to getting along with people, and what I'm suggesting is that there are times when a person who is bullied take an honest, objective look at the situation and ask themselves, "Okay. Something's got to change. What can I do to change my situation?" Adults can help, but at some point, the child needs to become an active participant instead of a passive recipient.

I hear ya, but it would be rather difficult for a person driven mad by abuse to do this. To do this calls for rational thinking and being able to think about it. and being able to do it might not happen til years down the road when they are feeling better and have begun to heal a little. Then, and only then, they MIGHT be able to hear a little constructive criticism. Unfortunately, now that I can think about it as an adult, I still dont believe i could have changed my peers' perceptions of me. Especially with the biggest bully of them all. He hurt a lot of people, not just me, and everyone hated him. Was just the way he was.

The only thing that detered him was in jr high school when i was in a group of friends. I was mostly protected from bullies by, as you stated, having at least one good friend. In high school, they dumped me however, and i was alone. Thats when my life really became hell, and the school wouldnt do anything, and my only choice was to leave.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Whether you're "at fault" in these accidents or not, wouldn't you at some point start looking around for things that you can do to stop getting into accidents?This last part is so important, Gordon. Why would we want to insulate our kids? I'd MUCH rather teach them the skills they'll need to get along. This includes anti-social behavior of all kinds, whether cruel to others or cruel to themselves. It seems to me that we often focus on punishing the anti-social behavior of bullies, rather than working to teach better social skills to all of the kids.

Why indeed? This is an important and helpful discussion for me. My job as a teacher puts in contact with bullies and the bullied, and I have a professional duty to serve them both. This reminds how very important it is to both that I don't project based on past experience.

When I was in middle school, I had one teacher that I knew understood my predicament, but it was a different time. He was a beginning teacher with no juice in a system of closely guarded tradition and the old boys mentality.

Today it's different. We're not swimming against the tide by dealing with bullying -- it's our job.

 

[searcher]

Yep, my childhood bully turned out to be a real nasty piece of work as an adult. I think that most of the time, rotten kids, unless there's some kind of intervention (which may be self-applied), grow into rotten adults.

Agreed. 2 of mine are wasted drug users and one other is a moocher.

I have seen some of the ones who bullied me since I got out of high school and I must say, they are not even worth the bother these days. I have used intellect to put 2 of them in their place and the others are now scared of me, though I have done nothing to them to deserve their fear.

In the end it all worked out for me, but it could have easily went another direction. I could have been a Columbine kid with very little assistance. And that scares me more than any bully ever did.

 

[Marginal]

I hear ya, but it would be rather difficult for a person driven mad by abuse to do this. To do this calls for rational thinking and being able to think about it. and being able to do it might not happen til years down the road when they are feeling better and have begun to heal a little.

I can see this. By the time high school rolled around, I flat out didn't trust anyone my age. Even if a kid tried to be nice to me out of the blue, I'd shoot them down fearing that they were trying to set me up.

That reflex does come in handy with those door to door magazine salesmen tho.

 

[dancingalone]

It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.

 

[Drac]

It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.

Yeah its amazing how much of that happens..Which is why I hate the High School Musicals, high school is anything but fun if you aint one of the beautiful people, tough guys or jocks...I wonder if we will see a jump in home schooling???

 

[Ken Morgan]

I went to school from kindergarten through grade 13 with basically all the same kids, we all grow up together. Around grade 5/6 I suddenly became very shy, this lasted till about grade 11/12. In garde 7/8 I meet up with some kids in middle school who didn't know me and started to give me a bit of a hard time, not much but enough that I remember and resent it. Come high school I went to the "normal" school, they went to the "special' school.

I also started weight training in grade 7, (and still do 30 years later), and added some good size around grade 11. I had no idea how to fight but I "looked" intimidating enough I guess.

I guy I worked with for years came into work once, he was about 40, and was all excited. Apparently the evening before he met up with the guy who bullied him all through grade school. Apparently the bully told my coworker, we were just kids, my coworker, who at the time was a brown belt in karate, would have none of it, and beat the **** outta the guy.

I don't know about the ethics of it, but i and I'm sure everyone else can understanding wanting to do such a thing.

 

[Gordon Nore]

It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.

My MA teachers, who were big strapping young men in their twenties when I started with them, often spoke of being small boys who were picked on. I ended up getting into a lot of fights when I had enough of being pushed around. My son, on the other hand, has trained from a very early age and managed to avoid physical confrontations. I wonder if some confidence came with the training, so he just didn't have anything to prove.

 

[Ken Morgan]

It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.

I mentioned it before on this forum, when my son was in grade 3 I sent him to boxing school. I told him he was never to start anything, but if he had to, he was allowed to finish them. Yes he got into fights, yes he was suspended, but he now won the fights and funny, the bulling stopped and he and his friends were never bullied again.

 

[dancingalone]

I mentioned it before on this forum, when my son was in grade 3 I sent him to boxing school. I told him he was never to start anything, but if he had to, he was allowed to finish them. Yes he got into fights, yes he was suspended, but he now won the fights and funny, the bulling stopped and he and his friends were never bullied again.

I am an ethnic Asian who grew up in the southern US. You'd think that would make me a poster child for 'bullied', but I was fairly liked from almost as early as I could remember. Being in sports and other activities helped, and I had supportive parents who wanted me to be 'American'.

The one time I could remember someone picking on me because my appearance was different occurred in 3rd grade and I beat up my bully purely out of natural aggression, with no MA training to speak of. I was angrier than he was. Funny how we were friends after that.

Of course that was before the days of "zero tolerance" and such in schools. The teachers would sometimes let the kids sort their differences out in their way, and sometimes that meant with fists. Then again, we had no gangs when I was growing up. Fights were strictly mano a mano and there was an unspoken code of what was right or not.

 

[blink13]

I am an ethnic Asian who grew up in the southern US. You'd think that would make me a poster child for 'bullied',

I am a native Southerner and wouldn't think that being an ethnic Asian automatically makes you a target/victim.

I'm not looking to start anything here, but I can read the implication, and being Southern does not equal being a racist.

I am sure you didn't mean everyone - maybe just in your area, and in your experience, and yes, I concede that we don't have the best track record. We're not all backwards, though.

Thanks.

 

[dancingalone]

I am a native Southerner and wouldn't think that being an ethnic Asian automatically makes you a target/victim.

I'm not looking to start anything here, but I can read the implication, and being Southern does not equal being a racist.

I am sure you didn't mean everyone - maybe just in your area, and in your experience, and yes, I concede that we don't have the best track record. We're not all backwards, though.

Thanks.

Actually, I consider myself a Texan and am proud to be one. The point I am making is not necessarily a case of southerners being racist. It's that I grew up in a particularly homogeneous area where my physical appearance did not match the majority of the residents there. I believe I could make the same point if I had grown up in Bozeman, Montana, no offense to any Montanans out there.

People are people and outliers from the norm generally come under additional levels of scrutiny/distrust/dislike/prejudice. You could switch it around to other homogeneous communities in other countries if you'd like. I think it's still true. In the US, where the communities are more diverse racially like Austin, Texas or Seattle, Washington, I believe physical appearance plays much less of a role INITIALLY. Obvious as relationships develop, physical appearance goes to the back burner.

 

[Steve]

Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?

Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They're just learning how to relate to each other. As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.

Am I completely off base?