On Bullies and the Bullied

[Steve]

Bullying is a topic that comes up periodically around here and it's treated, as it often is in society, as a one sided issue. You have bullies. You have victims. And you have adults who mishandle the situation.

The general consensus seems to be that bullies are rotten kids. One person referred to them as "[The] same butt holes [who] will send you an invite to attend the HS reunion...." I believe that there's something larger going on.

The first point I want to make is that we're dealing with kids. Most adults are not even remotely the same as they were in high school. Most people grow up. They become more mature. They regret some of the acts of stupidity, are proud of others, and are deeply ashamed of or are embarrassed by others. Ultimately, though, most of them turn into pretty decent human beings.

Most of the kids who are bullied figure out how to handle it. They learn to read situations better. They improve on their social skills. Often, they engage in some activity that improves their self esteem and gives them confidence: wrestling, martial arts, football, band... whatever. Something. And as they grow up and mature, they cease to be the victims they once were.

And equally important, but often overlooked, is that most of the bullies figure it out, too. In the adult world, there are still bullies. But there are also still victims. I am not suggesting otherwise. What I AM suggesting is that these are simply two sides of the same coin; both are people who failed to figure some important things out as they grew up. They didn't learn how to interact with their peers. But, like the victims of bullies, most bullies grow up. Like the victims, they figure out more productive ways to handle their aggression. They improve on their social skills, and like the victims, this is often through some activity that improves their self esteem and gives them confidence. And also like the victims of bullying, they often grow up and mature, ceasing to be the bullies that they once were.

So, point one: kids grow up. Both bullies and bullied grow up. Most become decent people.

The second point is that all of the kids are trying to figure stuff out. Some kids are bullied. Others are bullies. Most are doing their best to go with the flow and not draw undue attention to themselves. I would argue, though, that in a group of kids being mean, only one or maybe two are actually "bullies." Most of those kids are decent kids who just don't want to be picked on themselves. Are they doing the right thing? No. Should they help the victim? Probably should, yeah, but they're kids. Most of these kids will figure it out.

So, summarizing the second point, in a group of kids being mean, as an adult, I believe it's important to distinguish between the leaders and the followers. Who is instigating the bullying and which kids are just trying to avoid being in the line of fire? If we're at all interested in training kids to be productive members of society, this is crucial, because often dealing with the followers is as easy as addressing the actual bully.

Third point is often glossed over. The kids who are bullied are so because there is something about their personality that invites it. I'm not saying that they deserve it. Of course, they don't. What I'm suggesting is that if a kid is bullied, it's seldom random. Every kid is picked on. The ones that get bullied are the ones that fail to deflect the negative attention. Attempting to address the bullies without addressing the bullied is like swimming, armed only with a knife, in shark infested waters with a bloody carcass on your back. While you might get one or two sharks, you're failing to address what is inciting the sharks to attack.

I got bullied as a kid. I was the smart, redheaded, perpetual new kid all the way up to high school. But things changed dramatically for me when I realized that if someone picked on me, how I responded was critical to what events would follow. I learned that things weren't entirely external. I accepted that I was, at least in part, responsible for the situation. And as a result, it was within my power to change things.

Quick sidebar here, but I get crazy when I have to deal with people who refuse to own their problems. While there are always exceptions, we all make decisions. Everyone deals with tough breaks, but if you keep getting bullied I guarantee you that there is something you're doing or not doing. If you keep getting passed over for promotion, it's not because you're a white male or because so and so is a suck up. When people refuse to accept responsibility for things that occur in their lives, they're also ceding any power they might have to change these things.

Fourth point is that unilaterally protecting kids from bullies is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. We need to protect the kids and keep them safe, and there is ABSOLUTELY a right time to intercede. I'm not suggesting otherwise. When bullying becomes abuse and harrassment, things have to stop. But kids don't learn anything if adults do everything for them. Sometimes, the best action for the adults at a school to take is NO action, allowing the kids to learn from experience.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Fourth point is that unilaterally protecting kids from bullies is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. We need to protect the kids and keep them safe, and there is ABSOLUTELY a right time to intercede. I'm not suggesting otherwise. When bullying becomes abuse and harrassment, things have to stop. But kids don't learn anything if adults do everything for them. Sometimes, the best action for the adults at a school to take is NO action, allowing the kids to learn from experience.

First off, thank you for making this post, it's obvious you've put some thought into it.

I agree with everything else, and even most of this quoted portion, but I have to ask: acknowledging that being merely picked on is part of growing up, where is the line in the sand between leaving kids to deal with it and intervening?

I think that, clearly, where a teenage student is bullied to the point of committing suicide, some intervention was in order. But I also recognize that it's a very case-by-case, murky choice to make. So at what point, if at all, should parents or school administrators intervene, and even then, how exactly?

 

[Steve]

First off, thank you for making this post, it's obvious you've put some thought into it.

I agree with everything else, and even most of this quoted portion, but I have to ask: acknowledging that being merely picked on is part of growing up, where is the line in the sand between leaving kids to deal with it and intervening?

I think that, clearly, where a teenage student is bullied to the point of committing suicide, some intervention was in order. But I also recognize that it's a very case-by-case, murky choice to make. So at what point, if at all, should parents or school administrators intervene, and even then, how exactly?

I don't know. I think that it's usually pretty easy to see when things get out of hand. I mean, in the case of the 15 year old girl, there were behaviors that were clearly illegal in play. The kids were stalking and harrassing the girl. Being picked on and picking on others is very different than what happened in this extremely sad situation.

Honestly, I think that the worst situations are the ones that the adults don't see happening. I mean, if my kids are bullied and I know about, I can talk to them and keep an eye on things. I wonder how many adults had any idea that the situation in this case was so serious. I'll bet none. It's like when my friend killed himself in high school. No one saw it coming. He bottled everything up. Were there signs? Probably.

If we're talking about adults failing, in my opinion, it's not usually in deciding whether or not to intercede. It's in failing to see the situation for what it is in time to take appropriate action (even if that action is to keep an eye on it and not take any direct action).

 

[Empty Hands]

Adults are often part of the bullying problem. Bullied kids sometimes aren't liked by the adults either, who deliberately turn a blind eye to harassment and assault.

I know you didn't intend this either, but your post can't help but bring up the "she caused the rape by wearing a short skirt" argument. It's not the bullied's fault because they are different, or have social difficulties, or are just smaller and easier to **** with. The responsibility should not be placed on them. They should definitely not be classed with bullies as two sides of the same coin, which implies equal culpability. As if they were the same.

Also, from talking to those who were viciously bullied when they were younger, they learned nothing useful from it. Adults often facilitated it. And there was nothing they could do to stop it.

We do hold children responsible to a certain degree. We teach our 5 year olds not to hit each other and to share. Why do we expect less from teens?

 

[Steve]

Adults are often part of the bullying problem. Bullied kids sometimes aren't liked by the adults either, who deliberately turn a blind eye to harassment and assault.

I've seen you and others bring this up, but in my experience in public schools growing up, in my experience as a parent, and as an advocate in the local public schools, I've never seen this. I will say, though, that adults who deliberately turn a blind eye to children in any kind of crisis should be removed from a position of authority or responsibility over kids. Period.

I know you didn't intend this either, but your post can't help but bring up the "she caused the rape by wearing a short skirt" argument. It's not the bullied's fault because they are different, or have social difficulties, or are just smaller and easier to **** with. The responsibility should not be placed on them. They should definitely not be classed with bullies as two sides of the same coin, which implies equal culpability. As if they were the same.

First, I'm not referring to any kind of illegal activity. Once again, adults should certainly intercede when the kids clearly can't handle the situation themselves.

The similarity between the points that I'm making and any suggestion that a girl is at fault for being raped is tenuous. Not only is rape illegal, but even more fundamentally, I'm talking about chronic, repeated behavior vs any one incident.

I understand that this might be controversial on this forum, but I do in fact believe that a kid who is the victim of chronic bullying is at least partially responsible. This is different from blame. I'm suggesting that the victim of bullying is lacking the skills necessary to handle the situation him or herself. Rather than eliminating a bully here or there, I'm proposing that a better strategy for that child is to teach him or her the skills that are lacking. But this insistence that the victim of chronic bullying is no way exacarbating the situation is unrealistic.

Once again, it's like swimming with that bloody carcass in shark infested waters. As a bystander, we can pop off a few of the sharks, but we'd better serve the swimmer by getting rid of that bloody carcass.

And for the record, I'm not suggesting that bullies not be punished appropriately or that victims of bullying BE punished in any way. I'm trying to draw a distinction between contribution to a situation and blame for a situation. I'm not saying that a victim of bullying is doing something wrong. I'm suggesting that they are either doing or not doing things that would affect the situation.

Also, from talking to those who were viciously bullied when they were younger, they learned nothing useful from it. Adults often facilitated it. And there was nothing they could do to stop it.

I was viciously bullied as a child, and I can tell you that I learned a lot from it. But maybe I'm projecting. I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that I'm wrong yet, though.

We do hold children responsible to a certain degree. We teach our 5 year olds not to hit each other and to share. Why do we expect less from teens?

We don't. What we do expect from our teens, however, is for them to be able to handle the situation differently, on a higher level, than we would expect a five year old. At five, we're teaching our kids basic social skills. As a teen, we should be easing our kids from adolescence into adulthood, where interpersonal relationships and communication are much more complicated than with children.

Once again, I'm not suggesting that adults do nothing. Apathy and ignorance isn't the goal here. I'm suggesting that there are times when direct intervention is counter productive, and that to a point the kids need to learn how to interact on their own.

Kids who don't learn how to do these things end up being adults who get picked on... or adults who pick on others. Both are problems, in my opinion.

 

[Marginal]

I was viciously bullied as a child, and I can tell you that I learned a lot from it. But maybe I'm projecting. I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that I'm wrong yet, though.

Just from my experience, most bullying comes from under developed communication skills on both sides. The kids doing the bullying recognize someone not fitting in for one reason or another, (too smart, not fashionable, ugly etc) and then actively act to diminish the undesirable behavior through punishment.

That could work in a positive manner if the kids are clever enough to understand the concept of constructive criticism. However, very few do so they just act like almighty turds. This in turn further ostracizes the undesirable kids, and that leads to a downward spiral in the kids being attacked in this manner. (For example, if you're ugly, why care about your appearance?)

With a proper dialogue, I might have been able to appear more socially acceptable. Since there wasn't one, I just learned to not try when it came to these kids. I avoided them as much as possible, I certainly didn't feel like trying to get on their good sides. I viewed them as my enemies, and I didn't want to do anything that'd placate them.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Good points by all so far, but no amount of rational hypothesis will ever change the reality that some people really *are* just born evil.

 

[chaos1551]

When people refuse to accept responsibility for things that occur in their lives, they're also ceding any power they might have to change these things.

QFT.

There is no such thing as an "accident-prone" person.

No, no woman deserves to be raped (to glom on to a hyperbolic analogy). But it happens, so they shouldn't walk alone at night or get drunk at frat parties.

Who swims in shark-infested water with a carcass strapped to their back anyway? That's crazy even with a knife.

:uhyeah:

 

[Steve]

Good points by all so far, but no amount of rational hypothesis will ever change the reality that some people really *are* just born evil.

Maybe so, but not very many.

marginal, you made a couple points I'd like to response d to, but it'll have to wait until I have a real keyboard and nit a phone.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Maybe so, but not very many.

Thankfully.

 

[Carol]

So, point one: kids grow up. Both bullies and bullied grow up. Most become decent people.

This certainly sounds reasonable to me. However, I think the concern is over what happens in the interim. The fact that most kids can survive being bullied without committing suicide is cold comfort, if ya know what I mean.

The second point is that all of the kids are trying to figure stuff out. Some kids are bullied. Others are bullies. Most are doing their best to go with the flow and not draw undue attention to themselves. I would argue, though, that in a group of kids being mean, only one or maybe two are actually "bullies." Most of those kids are decent kids who just don't want to be picked on themselves. Are they doing the right thing? No. Should they help the victim? Probably should, yeah, but they're kids. Most of these kids will figure it out.

Agreed, and criminals can have accessories to the fact...however, simply being an accessory does not recuse from wrongdoing.

So, summarizing the second point, in a group of kids being mean, as an adult, I believe it's important to distinguish between the leaders and the followers. Who is instigating the bullying and which kids are just trying to avoid being in the line of fire? If we're at all interested in training kids to be productive members of society, this is crucial, because often dealing with the followers is as easy as addressing the actual bully.

Agreed.

When I was bullied...I was able to identify the "ringleaders" as such, and when things got to the point where I let my parents know or let the teachers know, what usually happened was the ringleader received a minor punishment, nothing happened to the cohorts, things would die down for a couple of weeks, then they were back at me harder than before.

Third point is often glossed over. The kids who are bullied are so because there is something about their personality that invites it. I'm not saying that they deserve it. Of course, they don't. What I'm suggesting is that if a kid is bullied, it's seldom random. Every kid is picked on. The ones that get bullied are the ones that fail to deflect the negative attention. Attempting to address the bullies without addressing the bullied is like swimming, armed only with a knife, in shark infested waters with a bloody carcass on your back. While you might get one or two sharks, you're failing to address what is inciting the sharks to attack.

It is not always about personality. I knew before I entered school that my legs were messed up and I could not run/jump/play like the normal kids. I didn't need to be bullied to learn that, nor did I need to be bullied to know that I would eventually need surgery and painful rehab.

There were definitely elements to my personality that needed improvement, but the answer wasn't simply oh something is broken so I need to fix it. When I entered first grade I was reading at a level at least a few grades higher but I wasn't as verbal as the other kids. That wasn't "Interstudent Relations. Yer doing it wrong." that was my brain being off-kilter....zooming ahead in some areas and behind in others. I recall being taken to specialists to help with this and that, I recall being able to repeat "gross and fine motor coordination" before I really knew what it meant. In order to change something, one must have the capability of making the change.

The insidious part is, even in kids, behaviour can become learned and ingrained through repetition, and even overcoming disadvantages to ones physicality or personality is not always enough to address a bad situation.

Fourth point is that unilaterally protecting kids from bullies is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. We need to protect the kids and keep them safe, and there is ABSOLUTELY a right time to intercede. I'm not suggesting otherwise. When bullying becomes abuse and harrassment, things have to stop. But kids don't learn anything if adults do everything for them. Sometimes, the best action for the adults at a school to take is NO action, allowing the kids to learn from experience.

There are also going to be situations that can't be overcome without more drastic measures. With me it took moving to another school. Certainly, social survival is a very important part of life, and I don't think protecting kids from themselves to the point of mollycoddling is an answer. But, I don't know what the answer is. The concern I have is more along the lines of townspeople complaining to town hall about a bad intersection, yet nothing is done until someone gets killed at the intersection.

 

[Steve]

That could work in a positive manner if the kids are clever enough to understand the concept of constructive criticism. However, very few do so they just act like almighty turds. This in turn further ostracizes the undesirable kids, and that leads to a downward spiral in the kids being attacked in this manner. (For example, if you're ugly, why care about your appearance?).

This part, I agree with, for the most part. Not necessarily about how to give and accept criticism... that's something that many adults never figure out. But that kids on both sides often lack the wisdom, the perspective and the social skills necessary to keep them from making bad situations worse.

 

[Steve]

This certainly sounds reasonable to me. However, I think the concern is over what happens in the interim. The fact that most kids can survive being bullied without committing suicide is cold comfort, if ya know what I mean.

And once again, I'm not talking about bullying to the degree that kids would even consider suicide. As I've said more than once, there is absolutely a point where adults should get actively involved.

Agreed, and criminals can have accessories to the fact...however, simply being an accessory does not recuse from wrongdoing.

We're talking about kids, not criminals.

When I was bullied...I was able to identify the "ringleaders" as such, and when things got to the point where I let my parents know or let the teachers know, what usually happened was the ringleader received a minor punishment, nothing happened to the cohorts, things would die down for a couple of weeks, then they were back at me harder than before.

What I'm suggesting is that the adults interceded, but they killed a couple of sharks instead of helping you figure out why you're swimming in the ocean with blood all around. They treated the symptom, but ultimately failed you because they didn't help you figure out why these kids were targeting you. They left that for you to figure out. And I'm not just talking about your legs. Everyone has things that single them out. Some are more overt than others, but in every school, I'm 100% confident that there are kids who are geeky, nerdy, overtly disabled or otherwise ripe for being picked on who get along with the other kids perfectly well. And other kids with nothing overt to single them out who are picked on all the time.

It is not always about personality. I knew before I entered school that my legs were messed up and I could not run/jump/play like the normal kids. I didn't need to be bullied to learn that, nor did I need to be bullied to know that I would eventually need surgery and painful rehab.

There were definitely elements to my personality that needed improvement, but the answer wasn't simply oh something is broken so I need to fix it. When I entered first grade I was reading at a level at least a few grades higher but I wasn't as verbal as the other kids. That wasn't "Interstudent Relations. Yer doing it wrong." that was my brain being off-kilter....zooming ahead in some areas and behind in others. I recall being taken to specialists to help with this and that, I recall being able to repeat "gross and fine motor coordination" before I really knew what it meant. In order to change something, one must have the capability of making the change.

Where one's personality or social skills are involved, it's never, ever as easy as "something is broken so I need to fix it." I'm not saying that at all.

The point that I'm making is that it wasn't JUST your legs being different that led to your being bullied.

My brother has Aspergers and he got picked on a lot. He had to learn what most people take for granted, but he DID learn. He's definitely his own breed of cat, but he gets along fine because he learned behaviors that help him to not be a victim of bullying. I take it you did to. That's what I'm getting at. It's not JUST bullies. The bullied can do things to change their situation.

The insidious part is, even in kids, behaviour can become learned and ingrained through repetition, and even overcoming disadvantages to ones physicality or personality is not always enough to address a bad situation.

I agree and in these cases, adults should be actively involved. Even before this point, the kids could be getting coaching from qualified adults.

There are also going to be situations that can't be overcome without more drastic measures. With me it took moving to another school. Certainly, social survival is a very important part of life, and I don't think protecting kids from themselves to the point of mollycoddling is an answer. But, I don't know what the answer is. The concern I have is more along the lines of townspeople complaining to town hall about a bad intersection, yet nothing is done until someone gets killed at the intersection.

I agree, and I don't believe anything I've said contradicts this point. There are things we can do, and I believe that adults HAVE dropped the ball in a lot of cases.

What I'm driving at are really just the big points I made earlier. That most of the kids in school, even the bullies, turn out all right. High school sucks for most kids, even the bullies. That the bullied are also part of the equation. That most of the kids who bully AREN'T really bullies, and finally that the right answer isn't always direct adult intervention.

 

[harlan]

It's an interesting post, but I've yet to see any evidence anywhere of bullies that turned out to be sterling adults. I do have the experience of actually meeting a childhood bully. 'Peaches', who thoroughly enjoyed beating on the only white girl in the 'hood'. Years later, she started work at a place where I had risen to assist. manager. One day we are taking a break, and she asks me if she knows me...I seemed familiar. I admit, it was a pleasure to inform her with a smile of our childhood.

Could have heard a pin drop. Fear on her face...as a single mom she needed the job. I admit to savoring it, before assuring her we 'were just kids'.

 

[Marginal]

This part, I agree with, for the most part. Not necessarily about how to give and accept criticism... that's something that many adults never figure out. But that kids on both sides often lack the wisdom, the perspective and the social skills necessary to keep them from making bad situations worse.

I don't disagree. Constructive criticism was kinda a kludgey term on my part. My point is that the pressure bullies can exert is not always consciously negative. They're mainly just trying to reinforce conformity to what they think are social norms. How the bullied kid perceives and reacts to it is the other half of the equation.

Both sides tend to reinforce the other. The bullied kids spirals down because there's not much to prop them up, the bullies keep up the pressure because there perceived social problem is still there, or it's getting worse.

I think improving the communication, or at least making the bullied kid recognize that they're not really being malevolently culled by their peers would help. There's a difference between telling a bullied kid that it's their problem alone, and that all they have to do is act just like the kids who are tormenting them (who honestly wants to emulate an *******?) and telling the kid that the bullying is a result of malformed communication skills on the part of the bullies. One's easier to accept than the other.

 

[Gordon Nore]

A thoughtful and fresh approach to the topic, bjj. I'm going to take a day or two to ponder it. A couple of things come to mind. You seem to be getting at the idea that something more has to be done than punish the bully and comfort the victim. It's an interesting proposition for me in that my professional role as defined by Ontario's Education Act is that of a 'prudent and careful parent.' Essentially, in the absence of a parent, I have to think and act in the parent's behalf.

Whether or not parents react appropriately to the news that their child has bullied someone, parents by and large don't reject their own children on the basis of bullying someone else. They don't love one child more for being a victim and another less for being a perpetrator. In much the same, although consequences might be different, the bully and the victim have something in common -- they're both my student, and they both are entitled to my care.

The other thing that comes out of your opening post is that this is bigger than the school yard. Typically, we start out by talking about bullying and end up talking about what teachers are or are not doing about it.

 

[Carol]

The point that I'm making is that it wasn't JUST your legs being different that led to your being bullied.

No it wasn't...but it was a factor that was still just as endogenous. It wasn't my fault that my I was born with bad legs, nor was it my fault that it took me much longer than it took other kids to develop proper speech and coordination. My mom took me to speech audiologists for years and years and years and years in on my speech, hearing, balance and coordination. I don't know if they helped...I suspect they didn't and time played a greater role in how I caught up. These factors likely had more of a negative impact on my personality than messed up legs, however, they were not as visible and certainly not as easy to correct.

My brother has Aspergers and he got picked on a lot. He had to learn what most people take for granted, but he DID learn. He's definitely his own breed of cat, but he gets along fine because he learned behaviors that help him to not be a victim of bullying. I take it you did to. That's what I'm getting at. It's not JUST bullies. The bullied can do things to change their situation.

I don't disagree, but I know in my case I absolutely did things to change my behaviour. And it was not enough. Up until mid June 2003 I was bullied relentlessly, even though I had changed, my leg braces were a distant memory, and my speech/balance had largely caught up to within normal parameters for an 8th grader. Starting in late August 2003 I was not bullied at all, and by the end of my first week at my new school I had already made a friend or two. I think that spoke more to moving 1000 miles away and being around kids that didn't have bullying me as ingrained behaivour. Other than being the new kid, I didn't stand out as different.

 

[Steve]

It's an interesting post, but I've yet to see any evidence anywhere of bullies that turned out to be sterling adults. I do have the experience of actually meeting a childhood bully. 'Peaches', who thoroughly enjoyed beating on the only white girl in the 'hood'. Years later, she started work at a place where I had risen to assist. manager. One day we are taking a break, and she asks me if she knows me...I seemed familiar. I admit, it was a pleasure to inform her with a smile of our childhood.

Could have heard a pin drop. Fear on her face...as a single mom she needed the job. I admit to savoring it, before assuring her we 'were just kids'.

When I first read this, I was immediately reminded of the early '90s when we heard so often, "But I don't know any gays!"

I'll bet you know plenty of people who were considered bullies as kids, but simply grew out of it. They dealt with their own issues and figured out more positive, constructive ways to interact with other people. They probably don't, however, wear signs that say, "I used to be a bully."

I'll even go one further. I'd bet that most of us here on this board have done things in our own youth that are remembered as bullying by another child. I know for sure it's true in my own case, as much as I'm ashamed to admit it. While I was never a true bully, I can think of one kid I was in 6th grade with in particular who would disagree with me.

Gordon Nore, I'm looking forward to reading more of your thoughts on the subject.

Carol, I'm sure you're right, but it doesn't negate my points. While sometimes a fresh start is all it takes, had you not accepted your own role in your situation a fresh start would have been a brief reprieve from bullying. I know people who moved from school to school and were victims of bullying at every single one. A fresh start didn't help them at all because whatever marked them as a victim hadn't yet been addressed.

 

[jks9199]

H'mm... A couple of comments mentioned decades.

Makes me wonder. I graduated HS in the mid-to-late 80s. Is my perception and my opinion on this issue shaped by the times I grew up in? Are things different -- and have they been different since?

 

[Steve]

H'mm... A couple of comments mentioned decades.

Makes me wonder. I graduated HS in the mid-to-late 80s. Is my perception and my opinion on this issue shaped by the times I grew up in? Are things different -- and have they been different since?

Good questions. I am also a product of the 80's. Garfield HS, c/o '88.