OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[Hanzou]

The problem with showing videos as 'evidence' is that what you are showing actually isn't evidence. Post up a video saying this is Wado sparring and what you have is two people sparring as they do it. It doesn't mean they are the best at Wado, it could be a Wado sport derivative, it could be two guys who are very poor at sparring, it could be a demo type thing at a grading. It's not proof of 'Wado Ryu' sparring, it's proof of two guys sparring not very seriously.

Of course, but when every Wado school and. Karate school who puts up sparring videos fight in a similar fashion despite geographic barriers, style differences, and distances, its fair to begin to make conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Especially if there is no counter evidence available.

I could post 5 different Wado schools from around the world, they're all fighting like those two guys in that video. If you wish for me to post up the remaining 4, just ask.

When you see Iain demonstrating movements that's exactly what you see him doing, nothing more, nothing less, have you seen him sparring? have you been to any of his seminars? show me any instructor that doesn't demonstrate. Kata bunkai is mainly for self defence but there are good elements in it that you can easily put into sparring.

The issue is not that Abernethy demonstrates these techniques on compliant partners, the issue is that none of this Bunkai is appearing in Karate sparring. This indicates that Karate exponents either refuse to break down the kata as Abernethy demonstrates, or that Kata training alone doesn't provide the tools to break it down in that fashion.

Btw, this isn't only a problem in Karate, it's an issue in all classical styles that utilize kata as a main training device.

People new to boxing and martial arts have trouble sparring for a number of reasons mostly though because someone is punching them back which the bags don't often do.
Anyway, why does it always have to be 'my way or you are wrong'? The 'I don't like/understand kata so it must be useless' argument is an old and tired. Just train how you like to train and leave the rest of us out of the ego trip.

Again, I'm simply asking for your evidence to the contrary. I have my experiences in Karate and it's pretty similar to the videos I've posted. My peers in Shotokan fought like all of those Karatekas in those videos. You and K-man are saying that somewhere out there, Karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kick boxers. I simply would like to see it to believe it. I don't think that's too much to ask.

I accept people train differently from me, it doesn't make me right and them wrong, it makes it different training. Telling people they don't do what they are doing is just weird .....and rude. Don't like kata? Fine don't do it. End of.

I also accept that people train differently than me. However, if we're having a discussion and you're saying that I'm wrong, I would like to see something beyond anedoctal evidence.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, this has gone on a bit since yesterday… Drop Bear, thanks for answering your take on kata… I'll come back tomorrow and give a proper response to that, your OP, and a range of other things mentioned in the thread.

 

[Tez3]

Of course, but when every Wado school and. Karate school who puts up sparring videos fight in a similar fashion despite geographic barriers, style differences, and distances, its fair to begin to make conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Especially if there is no counter evidence available.

I could post 5 different Wado schools from around the world, they're all fighting like those two guys in that video. If you wish for me to post up the remaining 4, just ask.



The issue is not that Abernethy demonstrates these techniques on compliant partners, the issue is that none of this Bunkai is appearing in Karate sparring. This indicates that Karate exponents either refuse to break down the kata as Abernethy demonstrates, or that Kata training alone doesn't provide the tools to break it down in that fashion.

Btw, this isn't only a problem in Karate, it's an issue in all classical styles that utilize kata as a main training device.



Again, I'm simply asking for your evidence to the contrary. I have my experiences in Karate and it's pretty similar to the videos I've posted. My peers in Shotokan fought like all of those Karatekas in those videos. You and K-man are saying that somewhere out there, Karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kick boxers. I simply would like to see it to believe it. I don't think that's too much to ask.



I also accept that people train differently than me. However, if we're having a discussion and you're saying that I'm wrong, I would like to see something beyond anedoctal evidence.

And I'd like to see something other than videos, we can all find videos of things to prove our points, doesn't make it correct though. My instructors like many think posting up videos is beyond naff, why are people doing it? To show off, it's like the corrent fad of selfies, only the vain, the self obsessed and the silly post selfies, the rest of us get on with life and training.
The thing is we don't actually care whether you think we are wrong or not, we do what we do and are more than happy with it, we learn, we grow. It is you who seem intent on proving that traditional styles 'don't work' fine, so you can't make them work, others can.
You also don't comprehend what I am saying, you have understood it as 'karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kickboxers', you haven't understood have you, no one has said they fight like their katas, no one at all. Kata and Bunkai is for self defence BUT there are movements that can be and are utilised for sparring, kata isn't all wrist locks etc, there's kicks, punches, elbows, knees used so are you telling me you have never seen those movements used? Look at the origins of kick boxing not Muay Thai but kick boxing, they are fighting like karatekas, not surprising considering kick boxing's origins. I also don't think you have picked up what katas are, they are a repository of techniques and movements, a thesaurus if you like, people don't 'fight like katas' they use techniques and movements from them, perhaps if you don't know the kata you won't know that it is contained in one.



I take it then that your Shotokan wasn't full contact like my Wado was?

 

[Hanzou]

And I'd like to see something other than videos, we can all find videos of things to prove our points, doesn't make it correct though. My instructors like many think posting up videos is beyond naff, why are people doing it? To show off, it's like the corrent fad of selfies, only the vain, the self obsessed and the silly post selfies, the rest of us get on with life and training.
The thing is we don't actually care whether you think we are wrong or not, we do what we do and are more than happy with it, we learn, we grow. It is you who seem intent on proving that traditional styles 'don't work' fine, so you can't make them work, others can.

Why are you taking this so personally? I'm simply asking you to provide evidence that you guys utilize kata when you're sparring.

You also don't comprehend what I am saying, you have understood it as 'karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kickboxers', you haven't understood have you, no one has said they fight like their katas, no one at all. Kata and Bunkai is for self defence BUT there are movements that can be and are utilised for sparring, kata isn't all wrist locks etc, there's kicks, punches, elbows, knees used so are you telling me you have never seen those movements used? Look at the origins of kick boxing not Muay Thai but kick boxing, they are fighting like karatekas, not surprising considering kick boxing's origins. I also don't think you have picked up what katas are, they are a repository of techniques and movements, a thesaurus if you like, people don't 'fight like katas' they use techniques and movements from them, perhaps if you don't know the kata you won't know that it is contained in one.

I understand that. My point (again) is that no one is fighting like Abernethy or like the old sensei that K-man posted up. ALL of them are fighting like kickboxers with their hands to the side while bouncing up and down. No one is doing wrist locks, throws, or the hand techniques showcased by Abernethy or others. You said that your school does it, so I'm just asking for some proof.

I take it then that your Shotokan wasn't full contact like my Wado was?

I suppose not. However, given that every Wado school I've seen fights like my old Shotokan school did, I don't think any Wado school is quite like yours.

Too bad we can't see it in action.

 

[Tez3]

Why are you taking this so personally? I'm simply asking you to provide evidence that you guys utilize kata when you're sparring.



I understand that. My point (again) is that no one is fighting like Abernethy or like the old sensei that K-man posted up. ALL of them are fighting like kickboxers with their hands to the side while bouncing up and down. No one is doing wrist locks, throws, or the hand techniques showcased by Abernethy or others. You said that your school does it, so I'm just asking for some proof.



I suppose not. However, given that every Wado school I've seen fights like my old Shotokan school did, I don't think any Wado school is quite like yours.

Too bad we can't see it in action.

Dear boy, I'm not taking it at all personally, don't project your feelings onto me, I'm more than amused by your persistence. I rather like the idea that you have seen every Wado Ryu place in the world! Impressive. Here we tend not to have 'schools' we usually have martial arts clubs, not for profit organisations. martial arts I've been told many times is different in America.
Again you have shown you don't understand what Iain or the 'old guy' is doing, if you expect them to fight like that you will wait a long time. Are you deliberately being obtuse I wonder or Are you trying to bait me into showing a video that I know you will pull apart because firstly it isn't BJJ, I wonder what you say if I posted the BJJ we do :boing2: It isn't going to happen because while you refuse to think about what kata is, what it's for and the history of kickboxing it's totally pointless.
Oh and if I ever did take anything on MT personally you'd know about it for sure :lfao:

 

[Hanzou]

Dear boy, I'm not taking it at all personally, don't project your feelings onto me, I'm more than amused by your persistence. I rather like the idea that you have seen every Wado Ryu place in the world! Impressive.

I never said I did. I said that every Wado place I've seen (and majority of Karate for that matter) spar in a similar fashion. You say that's not the case, I'm just asking you to provide proof of it. That's all.

Here we tend not to have 'schools' we usually have martial arts clubs, not for profit organisations. martial arts I've been told many times is different in America.
Again you have shown you don't understand what Iain or the 'old guy' is doing, if you expect them to fight like that you will wait a long time. Are you deliberately being obtuse I wonder or Are you trying to bait me into showing a video that I know you will pull apart because firstly it isn't BJJ,

Why would you assume that I don't understand what Iain or Tairai (sp?) is doing? I know exactly what they're doing, I saw it for years in Karate. My issue with those demonstrations is that they don't reflect the actual fighting demonstrated within Karate which is sparring. A karateka is going to fight like they spar because that is their more natural fighting state.

 

[Tez3]

I never said I did. I said that every Wado place I've seen (and majority of Karate for that matter) spar in a similar fashion. You say that's not the case, I'm just asking you to provide proof of it. That's all.



Why would you assume that I don't understand what Iain or Tairai (sp?) is doing? I know exactly what they're doing, I saw it for years in Karate. My issue with those demonstrations is that they don't reflect the actual fighting demonstrated within Karate which is sparring. A karateka is going to fight like they spar because that is their more natural fighting state.

If you say so dear.

 

[Tez3]

The history of kick boxing...........and why karate fights look like it or kick boxing looks like karate lol.

RAF Martial Arts Association - Freestyle Kickboxing

Now, I do karate and MMA so how do I fight? Iain Abernethy is a very good Judoka as well, have you seen him fight or even spar, how do you know how he fights.

 

[Hanzou]

The history of kick boxing...........and why karate fights look like it or kick boxing looks like karate lol.

RAF Martial Arts Association - Freestyle Kickboxing

Now, I do karate and MMA so how do I fight? Iain Abernethy is a very good Judoka as well, have you seen him fight or even spar, how do you know how he fights.

The history of kickboxing doesn't explain why karatekas aren't using Bunkai or any of their kata applications while sparring.

As for Abernethy, I appreciate his scholarship, but until I actually see someone fighting with kata Bunkai (including him), I'll view what he does as nothing more than some cool demo work.

Everything looks good in demonstrations.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Not going to post a video for anyone but I will say that my students are required to take a kata and use its moves while sparing in the order of the kata. This gives them a better understanding of the form and how and why the moves work.

as to what a kata is I will only quote Shoshin Nagamine ( if you do not know who he was/is goggle him ):
" Kata can be described as a systematically organized series of defensive and offensive techniques preformed in a sequence against one or more imaginary opponents, and given a symmetrical, linear pattern".

The techniques within a kata can be adapted to combat the only thing required to do so is the willingness to study long enough to understand the form and to apply the techniques when the opportunity arrives.

As for people all fighting the same way .well.. perhaps they are fighting the way their system teaches.....some are fluid , some are more static, some use internal strength, some use raw power..........some know how to translate what they are shown to many environments, some do not

 

[Tez3]

The history of kickboxing doesn't explain why karatekas aren't using Bunkai or any of their kata applications while sparring.

As for Abernethy, I appreciate his scholarship, but until I actually see someone fighting with kata Bunkai (including him), I'll view what he does as nothing more than some cool demo work.

Everything looks good in demonstrations.

Wow, you aren't getting this are you. Bunkai is not a Bo, it's not a katana, you don't fight with kata Bunkai lol. You do see movements from Bunkai all the time. Think of kata as a picture book, on every page is a movement or technique, it's a thick book lots of pages. Underneath are written (some of, you have to do some work yourself) the uses for these movements, that's Bunkai. you know like your car or motor bike manual.

Take a very simple movement from a kata, a downward or upwards block then a straight punch to the body. What's the Bunkai for that, I can think of quite a few uses for that in various situation including in sparring, can't you? Haven't you seen people block and punch in sparring?

In a Wado kata there's a movement that's a very nice figure four arm bar, in another there's a cross choke. In yet another there's a movement for disengagement that's leads to a knee strike, you can see that used a lot.
What are you looking for, some sort of magic trick? Kata and Bunkai are straight forward, no nonsense moves used for self defence with many of the moves you will see in sparring. There isn't a different type of punch used in sparring from that used in self defence. You want to evade being kicked and punched in sparring every bit as much as you do in self defence, no one wants to be KOd.

Everything you see people do when sparring is in kata, every move is contained in a kata. Every kick, punch, strike, elbow, knee even head butts are in kata. Bunkai gives you more options, more weapons to use. Use or don't use.

What you see in Iain's videos are demonstrations of techniques, it's all you can get if you don't train with him or go on his seminars, how can it be otherwise. The idea too is that you think for yourself, work out the Bunkai for yourself, see what works for you. It's not a one way process where you watch a video then you practice, it's a brain exercise as well. See movements in a kata and work out what you can do with them, there's small movements as well as the 'big' self defence ones, a way of standing perhaps to give you better balance. Could be anything that gives you that 'ah so that's how it works' moment. Like most things the more YOU work at it the better it gets, expecting everything to be laid out for you is not the way to go.

 

[Tez3]

Fighting Motives: A Study in Saifa ? Part 1 | FIGHTLAND

 

[K-man]

Well, sure...after all, the pads aren't hitting you back. My point was that kata, is pre-arranged, just like focus mitt drills. When it comes time for SD or the boxing/sparring match, there's nothing pre-arranged about it.

The kata is prearranged but the bunkai isn't. It is what we call predictive response. Because it involves holding, the response of the attacker can be predicted. For example, if I am controlling your left arm and I strike say backfist to your head with my right, you either get hit or you protect with your right arm. If my strike is effective end of scenario. If you block then I switch control to your right arm and hit you with the left. We can train bunkai with anybody because uke's response is just what anyone would do. It is not choreographed. Bunkai doesn't work in the boxing/sparring situation because you can't control the response, another reason why Hanzou will never find recognisable aspects of kata in his sparring videos. We used to have pre-arranged drills but honesty, they were pretty useless and I took them out of the syllabus.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

Wow, you aren't getting this are you. Bunkai is not a Bo, it's not a katana, you don't fight with kata Bunkai lol. You do see movements from Bunkai all the time. Think of kata as a picture book, on every page is a movement or technique, it's a thick book lots of pages. Underneath are written (some of, you have to do some work yourself) the uses for these movements, that's Bunkai. you know like your car or motor bike manual.

Take a very simple movement from a kata, a downward or upwards block then a straight punch to the body. What's the Bunkai for that, I can think of quite a few uses for that in various situation including in sparring, can't you? Haven't you seen people block and punch in sparring?

Please point out the downward or upper blocks followed by straight punch (or any kata sequence) in the following Wado Ryu sparring videos;

Four different Wado organizations all fighting in a similar manner, all advanced and even instructor level practitioners, and none of them fighting in a fashion that resembles their kata at all.

So if I met these practitioners in a dark alley, do you think they'd fight like the way they do above and defeat me, or would they suddenly bust out into some traditional Karate kata movements and defeat me?

My money's on the former.

 

[Hanzou]

Bunkai doesn't work in the boxing/sparring situation because you can't control the response, another reason why Hanzou will never find recognisable aspects of kata in his sparring videos. We used to have pre-arranged drills but honesty, they were pretty useless and I took them out of the syllabus.

LoL! Now I've heard everything. :lfao:

 

[Tez3]

Oh dear, oh dear, you really don't get this do you. :lfao:

Let me see, I can see kicks, punches and ever so many other techniques all of which you will see in a kata. Never seen a front kick in a kata? Gosh.
I think actually you don't mean kata at all, I think you are talking about Kihons.

 

[K-man]

Of course, but when every Wado school and. Karate school who puts up sparring videos fight in a similar fashion despite geographic barriers, style differences, and distances, its fair to begin to make conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Especially if there is no counter evidence available.

Did you ever consider that most MMA fighters fight a similar way? They fight that way because there is a rule set. Every video you have posted is sport style karate sparring. Did you ever consider that the rule set might be similar? Karateka from different styles fight in the same competition. Did it ever pass through your closed mind that karateka who don't spar in the sporting sense might fight a different way?

The issue is not that Abernethy demonstrates these techniques on compliant partners, the issue is that none of this Bunkai is appearing in Karate sparring. This indicates that Karate exponents either refuse to break down the kata as Abernethy demonstrates, or that Kata training alone doesn't provide the tools to break it down in that fashion.

Btw, this isn't only a problem in Karate, it's an issue in all classical styles that utilize kata as a main training device.

Firstly, very few karate schools would claim that kata is their main training device. I will put my hand up and say that, for us, that is our major point of difference.

However, let's look at your ludicrous statement that Iain demonstrates his techniques on compliant partners. Since video I your only ruler as to what is real and what is not, perhaps you could post a video of any BJJ demonstration where the person is demonstrating his technique on a noncompliant partner, that is someone really trying to harm him. Next piece of nonsense is your statement about karate exponents refusing to break up the kata. Because you are totally ignorant in terms of kata and bunkai and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that anyone might have more knowledge that you you continue to make stupid comments. Bunkai requires control, ie grappling. Grappling is not part of normal sport karate type sparring. You will never see bunkai like we train or Iain teaches in that type of sparring.

Again, I'm simply asking for your evidence to the contrary. I have my experiences in Karate and it's pretty similar to the videos I've posted. My peers in Shotokan fought like all of those Karatekas in those videos. You and K-man are saying that somewhere out there, Karatekas are fighting like their katas instead of modified kick boxers. I simply would like to see it to believe it. I don't think that's too much to ask.

With your closed mind you don't want to see it. As I have said previously, you are a bigot.

I also accept that people train differently than me. However, if we're having a discussion and you're saying that I'm wrong, I would like to see something beyond anedoctal evidence.

You do not accept that people train differently to you but your closed mind won't accept that their training is as valid as yours. Everything that anyone have said is anecdotal to you. Your training is anecdotal. I for one don't believe you have any experience of karate for a start. You might have been given a black belt in Shotokan for some unknown reason but you have less knowledge of its basic principles than a junior green belt.

Why are you taking this so personally? I'm simply asking you to provide evidence that you guys utilize kata when you're sparring.

Because you keep asking the same questions, you get the same answers from different people and you haven't the mental acuity to take those answers on board. As Tez said, all the individual elements of kata are in any sparring, sport or otherwise. However kata, as I keep saying, is not for fighting. What part of "kata is not for fighting" don't you understand. I reckon my five year old grandson could understand that!

I understand that. My point (again) is that no one is fighting like Abernethy or like the old sensei that K-man posted up. ALL of them are fighting like kickboxers with their hands to the side while bouncing up and down. No one is doing wrist locks, throws, or the hand techniques showcased by Abernethy or others. You said that your school does it, so I'm just asking for some proof.

I presume "that old Sensei" is your reference to Masaji Taira. Actually he is probably 'old' because you are so young. :lfao:

If you want proof you can get out of your armchair and visit. I have no proof that you have any martial art background or training and I don't really care. The knowledge, or lack thereof, that you have demonstrated on this forum is at the lowest end of the scale. Why should anyone take you seriously? Where is your 'proof'?

I suppose not. However, given that every Wado school I've seen fights like my old Shotokan school did, I don't think any Wado school is quite like yours.

Too bad we can't see it in action.

Yes it is a shame that your exposure to karate has been at such a low level, then again perhaps you didn't understand what you were watching.

I never said I did. I said that every Wado place I've seen (and majority of Karate for that matter) spar in a similar fashion. You say that's not the case, I'm just asking you to provide proof of it. That's all.

You dismissed all evidence submitted. I would like to see proof that you are what you say you are.

Why would you assume that I don't understand what Iain or Tairai (sp?) is doing? I know exactly what they're doing, I saw it for years in Karate. My issue with those demonstrations is that they don't reflect the actual fighting demonstrated within Karate which is sparring. A karateka is going to fight like they spar because that is their more natural fighting state.

I'll call BS on that for a start. I'll state categorically that You have never met or trained with anyone like Iain Abernethy or Masaji Taira. You never saw what they are doing in Shotokan. Please stick to the truth. The first time you even heard of these guys was on this forum.

As to not seeing it is sparring ... I'll say it again ... It is because you have no knowledge of the subject. You don't find pearls in pig s#'t either.

The history of kickboxing doesn't explain why karatekas aren't using Bunkai or any of their kata applications while sparring.

True. But you know why karatekas don't use bunkai in sparring. You just can't acknowledge what you have had explained to you.

As for Abernethy, I appreciate his scholarship, but until I actually see someone fighting with kata Bunkai (including him), I'll view what he does as nothing more than some cool demo work.

Everything looks good in demonstrations.

OMG!

 

[Hanzou]

Oh dear, oh dear, you really don't get this do you. :lfao:

Let me see, I can see kicks, punches and ever so many other techniques all of which you will see in a kata. Never seen a front kick in a kata? Gosh.
I think actually you don't mean kata at all, I think you are talking about Kihons.

You also see it in basic technique drills, and that is far more likely where they're pulling their movements from due to their high stance and hand placement.

 

[K-man]

LoL! Now I've heard everything. :lfao:

Please share. What have you heard?
What do you doubt? Our prearranged drills were designed for competition. Now we don't train to compete so we don't have the prearranged drills.

I know you don't understand anything about kata and bunkai so there is no point in even trying to explain that to you again.

 

[K-man]

Oh dear, oh dear, you really don't get this do you. :lfao:

Let me see, I can see kicks, punches and ever so many other techniques all of which you will see in a kata. Never seen a front kick in a kata? Gosh.
I think actually you don't mean kata at all, I think you are talking about Kihons.

Tez, Tez! Don't confuse the poor boy. I tried to explain kihon to him a while back. It went straight through to the keeper.