In a bad one 95%, in a good one 5%
OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.
- Thread starter drop bear
- Start date
The goal of self defense training is not to cause harm to others but to limit harm to yourself and anyone you are trying to protect. Unfortunately sometimes the only way to do that is to harm your attacker. To that end every block, strike, joint lock, throw or kick is designed to be painful to an attacker to various degrees.
It doesn't happen very often but every now and then we will get someone in class who lets their ego get the better of them (usually students from other styles) and either get too aggressive or refuse to change their ways. The ones that get too agressive will ocasionally have to be put in their place.
I would point out that I didn't bring ego, 'ego sparring' or anything like that into this thread, my point was simply that if you are training for one thing and not using kata you don't have a huge lot of experience of kata and Bunkai, I don't know how that got turned into who trains MMA and why, the thread is about sparring and kata supposedly. If you train for example Judo all the time you won't have a good working knowledge of boxing. that's simple enough isn't it? If you have guys who mainly want to train for fighting in the street and you train that you won't have a good working knowledge of kata. I don't care what people in other places train for, I just don't think that training for one thing gives you automatic knowledge of another thing.
Check out my comment # 160 on page 11 of this thread which explains the whole context behind the original post.
Thank you, it's all got lost I think! It does confirm what I was thinking though that those who haven't had exposure to Bunkai training don't understand it's uses and therefore tend to dismiss kata as being pointless.
So, if I'm understanding your point correctly it goes something like this:
1) The first pre-requisite for being able to de-escalate a situation is to not be the sort of testosterone-poisoned nit-wit who instinctively escalates the situation.
2) Experience of hard-contact sparring can help cure that testosterone poisoning (possible mechanisms - teaching the student to be calm under pressure, giving him an outlet for aggression, reminding him that there is always someone tougher)
Is that more or less it?
If so, I'd say there's a certain degree of truth to it.
1) Many fights result from both parties being idiots and could be avoided if either person would keep their cool. It is possible that since you work in a bar, these sorts of situations might be over-represented in your personal experience.
2) Some individuals do learn to be calmer through their sparring experience. Unfortunately, this lesson is not universally learned by any stretch of the imagination.
Drop bear you aren't the only one who 'does this for a living' though. Working in a bar however as opposed to being a police officer may mean you don't see the full spectrum of violent behaviour.
A fair few of my students end up in fights in pubs, bars etc despite trying very hard not to, they are often a target and despite any de-escalation techniques they use and they are skilled in this area, are often ignored as people are determined to fight them. Luckily they are well schooled too in using reasonable force and not a lot of damage is done to their attackers, sadly though they have had colleagues attacked and killed before now.
A fair few of my students end up in fights in pubs, bars etc despite trying very hard not to, they are often a target and despite any de-escalation techniques they use and they are skilled in this area, are often ignored as people are determined to fight them. Luckily they are well schooled too in using reasonable force and not a lot of damage is done to their attackers, sadly though they have had colleagues attacked and killed before now.
Yes and no. In the most generic use of the word fight (I was fighting to stay alive in that rip current), maybe. Self defense is "fighting" in that sense, but is not the same as street fighting.
But let's be honest; the martial arts are fighting systems, not self defense systems. You can use them to defend yourself, but they aren't strictly self defense. Some have competitive elements to them (taekwondo, karate, judo, Gracie jiu jitsu, etc.), but they aren't strictly for competition. They're just fighting systems.
I've said it many times before, as have others, and I'll say it again: if all you want to do is learn to defend yourself, a martial arts class is a fairly inefficient way to do it. The two to four years you spend getting to "blackbelt" in most traditional martial arts are spent learning foundational material to make you proficient in that particular system, and generally won't give you the tools you need for self defense until you've spent a fair amount of time developing foundational skills.
Well, now you're getting into two different elements of self defense. Let me say at the outset that virtually ever single MA school that I have had any contact with advocates avoiding fights. They don't all do a great job of showing you how, but they at least advocate it.
The stress of what moves are used, be they illegal in competition or no, and the stress of being functional outside of the ring and the studio is (A) just what you said, the sales pitch (MMA has their own sales pitches), and more importantly the techniques you train in for self defense need to be functional in that setting. The physical elements of self defense are for something that you may only need 1% of the time, but they've got to work in that 1% of the time, because that's when you're safety is on the line.
De-escalation is something that can be practiced much more frequently, and outside of a life threatening encounter; I practiced it many times over the years in a retail setting in dealing with irate customers.
The rest of it; awareness, confidence and good habits, are things that you can, or should practice 100% of the time.
Repetition is one of the tools to making techniques instinctive. You can only practice the physical techniques with a partner but so much outside of a training setting, which is why so much emphasis must be put onto it in class.
Additionally, the average martial arts school, as much as people might like to think differently, does not have a student body that is 100% there for self defense and fighting. Many people are there for simple physical fitness (another thing that MA schools pitch), personal development, or because their parents enrolled them in the class for a combination of reinforcement of good habits, fitness, anti bullying, self defense, and childcare.
So, a martial arts school must accommodate a wide range of training goals, most of which will actually lie outside of self defense. Self defense provides the allure; it tells the student that if they take this class they will be empowered. Empowerment is a universal desire. It crosses genders, ethnic, socio-economic, and cultural backgrounds. The rest of it (fitness, etc.) is more likely to get the student to actually sign up, but it is that promise of empowerment that often plants the seed.
Of course not. Neither does sparring, competition, or any other type of MA training. Even training in a place where bad behavior is curbed and the sensei/sabeom/coach is of exemplary character.
The character of a person, particularly an adult, is developed prior to their arrival at the studio. A bully who takes a TMA or MMA class will probably still be a bully because the things that made him a bully are unrelated to what physical activity he participates in. Same goes for any other reprehensible behavioral patterns.
The time spent outside of the studio usually has a much greater impact on the student's character than the time in the studio, simply due to greater amount of time and proximity. It's the same reason that the one hour a week in religious services, no matter how wonderful the preaching or how positive and healthy the doctrine, usually has less substantive impact in a person's life than what they do the rest of the time, even if that person is fairly genuine in their beliefs.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Interesting comment regarding bullying. I happen to believe that a bully can benefit greatly from martial arts training, particularly a sport art where they must get some control over their ego. Bullying is a tough subject, but understanding better why people, kids in particular, bully can really help. And if you do know a little about why kids bully other kids, it's easy to see how sports or involvement in other extra-curriculars such as martial arts, can really help them develop the skills to handle issues in a more positive manner.
I've seen this happen many times in my kids' time in schools and youth sports, and I've seen it over and over in the BJJ school.
Bullies on Bullying: Why We Do It
I've seen this happen many times in my kids' time in schools and youth sports, and I've seen it over and over in the BJJ school.
Bullies on Bullying: Why We Do It
True. My point was that where you are for maybe two to three hours a week will usually be less influential than where you are the rest of the week. Most bullies that I knew growing up had family situations that were in some way abusive, frequently due to one parent. Efforts made by the school system were blunted by the child's home life.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Often, immersion into some kind of positive extracurricular is exactly the thing that provides a constructive outlet, positive adult and peer role models, structure and discipline that a bully craves. And I wouldn't sell that 2 to 3 hours per week short, particularly if it can grow into more than that. And to be clear, when I think of positive extracurricular activity, I have in mind anything from scouting to chess club to sports to music.
Bullying, in my experience, is a reflection of the same issues that plague those who are victims of bullying. Often, bullies are themselves bullied. It's a negative response to low self esteem and a lack of social skills adequate to deal with frustration, anger or depression. Where the frustration, anger or depression comes from varies. Bullying or being victimized by bullies are often a result of the these things, regardless of where they come from.
That's my three sentence summary, at least... granted a gross oversimplification.
OP
OP
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
So, if I'm understanding your point correctly it goes something like this:
1) The first pre-requisite for being able to de-escalate a situation is to not be the sort of testosterone-poisoned nit-wit who instinctively escalates the situation.
2) Experience of hard-contact sparring can help cure that testosterone poisoning (possible mechanisms - teaching the student to be calm under pressure, giving him an outlet for aggression, reminding him that there is always someone tougher)
Is that more or less it?
If so, I'd say there's a certain degree of truth to it.
1) Many fights result from both parties being idiots and could be avoided if either person would keep their cool. It is possible that since you work in a bar, these sorts of situations might be over-represented in your personal experience.
2) Some individuals do learn to be calmer through their sparring experience. Unfortunately, this lesson is not universally learned by any stretch of the imagination.
Yeah pretty much and that sparring is a circumstance where you have to manage real emotional response.
Why fights start in pubs is kind of a bit more complicated though not sure if I can properly explain it. It is not just aggressors who fight due to lack of social skills. Serial victims are also projecting something that is getting them targeted.
OP
OP
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah but I can really only work from my own perception. I am not really commenting on all aspects of violence just the bits I know about.
OP
OP
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I was commenting on what is just not a logical statement rather than kata or sparring.
OP
OP
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Well in general terms you will get polar opposite opinions on the subject and you will find both can be right. Martial arts gets like that some times.
Wow. That troubles me. I didn't know you were part of such a violent situation, Tez. Please be careful, your students, too.
LOL my students are teddy bears trust me. I'm retired now but have, when I worked, had to deal with a great many situations involving violence. Soldiers are targets, from the lads who fancy themselves hard and want to prove it by knocking out a squaddie to those who think the squaddie is encroaching on his girlfriend ( which to be fair he prob was), squaddies like to fight among themselves but I've never had a problem breaking those fights up and they will go away arms around each other best of mates sporting the bruises they gave each other. I live and worked on the largest Garrison in Europe, there is always some sort of altercation going on. In other towns though we have had soldiers attacked and killed by thugs. Sometimes the girls fighting is worse, I hate breaking up female fights and the Fijians when they fight, they are man mountains and need a dozen police officers to take then down...or one dog, they seem to be terrified of the police dogs! Never seen the Gurkhas fight though. The Irish regiment is bad for it, they'd fight anyone and when they run out of people they'd fight among themselves lol. I was waiting at the guardroom when some of the Irish Rangers came in fighting each other coming through the gate, they came up to me, all separated, wished me good night, walked on a bit then started fighting again, madmen.
The worst threat at the moment is that of terrorists attacking the soldiers, we've always had that from N Ireland but this is different, when a squaddie is knocked down by a car and beheaded we have a bad situation on our hands.
The majority of the martial arts students are military, we take civvies, anyone who wants, including travellers who are great in the club and they have a violent reputation but are cool in the club The military students are disciplined and fit, for them MMA is a stress reliever. Over the past ten years the Garrison has lost a lot of soldiers, male and female with many more having life changing injuries. We lost two students in Afghan the youngest was only 20.
Many years ago when I was in the forces I worked in a place that had riots ad attacks, no British service person was safe basically. I've also been out on runs ashore with the Bootnecks and the amount of lads that want to fight a commando is amazing, my then boyfriend would take off his watch and there they'd go again, despite the refusal of the idiots to go away, being told that the Marines wanted no trouble etc.
One of our students Steve was Bisping's first pro opponent, it was our fight night, Steve was awesomely bad lol, Bisping not a lot better though he improved, Steve went back to rugby roflmao.
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