OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[Tez3]

Tez, Tez! Don't confuse the poor boy. I tried to explain kihon to him a while back. It went straight through to the keeper.

I'm just wondering how much any of us would learn if instructors demonstrated how to do techniques on a non complaint partner :boing2:

I think Iain's customer base would be somewhat different if he started using non complaint people to show the techniques on, I wonder if he's thought of making snuff movies.

 

[Hanzou]

Did you ever consider that most MMA fighters fight a similar way? They fight that way because there is a rule set. Every video you have posted is sport style karate sparring. Did you ever consider that the rule set might be similar? Karateka from different styles fight in the same competition. Did it ever pass through your closed mind that karateka who don't spar in the sporting sense might fight a different way?

Why would they be using competition rules during a black belt test?

Firstly, very few karate schools would claim that kata is their main training device. I will put my hand up and say that, for us, that is our major point of difference.

However, let's look at your ludicrous statement that Iain demonstrates his techniques on compliant partners. Since video I your only ruler as to what is real and what is not, perhaps you could post a video of any BJJ demonstration where the person is demonstrating his technique on a noncompliant partner, that is someone really trying to harm him.

Well that's easy;

Non compliant doesn't mean that the person is trying to harm the other person. Non compliant means that your partner is trying to prevent your technique while similarly trying to apply his techniques as well.

Abernethy in comparison;

That is a demonstration. His partner is complaint and is NOT trying to prevent Iain's technique.

Next piece of nonsense is your statement about karate exponents refusing to break up the kata. Because you are totally ignorant in terms of kata and bunkai and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that anyone might have more knowledge that you you continue to make stupid comments. Bunkai requires control, ie grappling. Grappling is not part of normal sport karate type sparring. You will never see bunkai like we train or Iain teaches in that type of sparring.

So you're saying that grappling is somehow too dangerous to utilize while sparring? Um, several styles do nothing but grapple while sparring, I'm a part of one of those styles. Heck, MMA successively blends striking with grappling constantly. Are you trying to say that Karate can't blend striking and grappling in sparring but MMA and other styles can?

With your closed mind you don't want to see it. As I have said previously, you are a bigot.

You guys have yet to provide anything beyond your personal experiences. I value that experience, but its purely subjective. Some objective evidence would be very helpful.

You do not accept that people train differently to you but your closed mind won't accept that their training is as valid as yours. Everything that anyone have said is anecdotal to you. Your training is anecdotal. I for one don't believe you have any experience of karate for a start. You might have been given a black belt in Shotokan for some unknown reason but you have less knowledge of its basic principles than a junior green belt.

Based on what exactly? That I disagree with your viewpoint and have provided evidence to back up my point of view and experience?

Because you keep asking the same questions, you get the same answers from different people and you haven't the mental acuity to take those answers on board. As Tez said, all the individual elements of kata are in any sparring, sport or otherwise. However kata, as I keep saying, is not for fighting. What part of "kata is not for fighting" don't you understand. I reckon my five year old grandson could understand that!

So when you're defending yourself from an attacker meaning to do you harm, you're not going to be fighting? That is the purpose behind the kata right? Self defense purposes.

If you want proof you can get out of your armchair and visit. I have no proof that you have any martial art background or training and I don't really care. The knowledge, or lack thereof, that you have demonstrated on this forum is at the lowest end of the scale. Why should anyone take you seriously? Where is your 'proof'?

Well the difference here is that I never claimed that you or Tez had no experience in Karate. I claimed that your viewpoint on Kata doesn't reflect how Karatekas actually train and or fight in general. Now I'm fully willing to accept that you and Tez are trained differently from the average karateka, but in order to validate that I simply asked for a link to your dojos or sparring clips to see what you guys are doing differently than seemingly every other karate school in the world.

I'm sorry if that simple request was asking too much from the both of you.

 

[Tez3]

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

Golly, if K Man and I are the only ones doing what we do where the hell did we learn it from? Oh I know, all the other karateka we have ever trained with over the years. I know you don't actually read anything I write and that bores me so I shall leave you to your You Tube fetish in peace.

One thing....the purpose of kata is to store/collate/record/hold all the movements and techniques of karate. It is for no other purpose. What you do with those movements is up to you depending on your mindset and your instructors. Bunkai is finding uses for those moves in self defence. Self defence and sparring will use the same movements and techniques. Again how you do that is up to you.

There are people who do kata without knowing why, people who enjoy kata and find other uses for it but nothing takes away it's original purpose...a repository of movements and techniques.

 

[Hanzou]

One thing....the purpose of kata is to store/collate/record/hold all the movements and techniques of karate. It is for no other purpose.

Bjj doesn't have kata and we record/store/collate and hold all the movements of the art just fine. Other arts without kata do the same.

So my original point on the first page stands.

 

[Cirdan]

Tez, you know if you read that post out loud in front of a camera and post it on youtube, Hanzou might actually get it :lol:

 

[K-man]

Why would they be using competition rules during a black belt test?.

Mainly because that is the way they have been shown to spar? That is the way they compete in all their tournaments?

Non compliant doesn't mean that the person is trying to harm the other person. Non compliant means that your partner is trying to prevent your technique while similarly trying to apply his techniques as well.

True, but when you are teaching someone a new technique you don't teach it against full resistance. We test all our techniques against full resistance and with a partner looking for a way out, not just resisting the technique.

That is a demonstration. His partner is complaint and is NOT trying to prevent Iain's technique..

Exactly. He is demonstrating a technique, not testing it.

So you're saying that grappling is somehow too dangerous to utilize while sparring? Um, several styles do nothing but grapple while sparring, I'm a part of one of those styles. Heck, MMA successively blends striking with grappling constantly. Are you trying to say that Karate can't blend striking and grappling in sparring but MMA and other styles can?

BS again! Where did I say that? Your definition of 'sparring' was so wide that everything was included, yet the karate videos you post are all of sport sparring. My training incorporates striking with grappling, just not ground grappling if it can be avoided.

You guys have yet to provide anything beyond your personal experiences. I value that experience, but its purely subjective. Some objective evidence would be very helpful..

Well as I have said, get off your **** and visit. I'm not putting videos of training up for you and I'm not going to go trawling the internet for you either. On past performance you wouldn't accept anything we put up anyway so why waste time?

Based on what exactly? That I disagree with your viewpoint and have provided evidence to back up my point of view and experience?.

You are perfectly welcome to disagree with my viewpoint as I do with yours. However in this instance I am talking from the view point of someone who is teaching this stuff and you are arguing from the position of someone who has never seen it. Go figure!

So when you're defending yourself from an attacker meaning to do you harm, you're not going to be fighting? That is the purpose behind the kata right? Self defense purposes..

What BS is this? If an attacker is bent on causing grief I am not going to fight? What are you taking? Fantasy pills? Kata is kihon as has been explained before. Kata is not for fighting as I have explained over and over. Kata had absolutely zero to do with self defence. You have absolutely no knowledge of kata.

Well the difference here is that I never claimed that you or Tez had no experience in Karate. I claimed that your viewpoint on Kata doesn't reflect how Karatekas actually train and or fight in general. Now I'm fully willing to accept that you and Tez are trained differently from the average karateka, but in order to validate that I simply asked for a link to your dojos or sparring clips to see what you guys are doing differently than seemingly every other karate school in the world.

I'm sorry if that simple request was asking too much from the both of you.

As I said get off your **** and visit if you are truly interested. I visit other schools and I have trained in other countries to expand my understanding. I take every opportunity to train with people from other styles to see what they also have to offer. Perhaps you should do the same. Perhaps if you emptied your cup you might even pick up something of value too.

 

[K-man]

Bjj doesn't have kata and we record/store/collate and hold all the movements of the art just fine. Other arts without kata do the same.

So my original point on the first page stands.

Nobody has said you need kata. If you had any knowledge on the subject you would know that karate kata was developed from the fighting forms of the CMAs. They were the way of passing the information from generation to generation where illiteracy was the norm and they had no access to video. BJJ is a recent innovation. You don't need to record it in a kata, you have YouTube!

 

[Tez3]

Most people teach a movement by demonstrating first on a non resisting uke, getting the students to learn that technique then having the students make it work against an opponent rather than a partner then to use it in a fighting/sparring situation. To do otherwise makes no sense.

We could start a thread on the qualities of a good uke couldn't we, it involves a tolerance to pain for sure.


Oh and Judo has kata, tried it once, it's a real bugger, knee walking along a mat :boing2:

 

[Hanzou]

Mainly because that is the way they have been shown to spar? That is the way they compete in all their tournaments?

Doubtful, since non-competitive karate/TKD/TSD schools spar in a similar manner.

True, but when you are teaching someone a new technique you don't teach it against full resistance. We test all our techniques against full resistance and with a partner looking for a way out, not just resisting the technique.


Exactly. He is demonstrating a technique, not testing it.

How exactly would he test it?

BS again! Where did I say that? Your definition of 'sparring' was so wide that everything was included, yet the karate videos you post are all of sport sparring. My training incorporates striking with grappling, just not ground grappling if it can be avoided.

Bunkai requires control, ie grappling. Grappling is not part of normal sport karate type sparring. You will never see bunkai like we train or Iain teaches in that type of sparring.

As I said get off your **** and visit if you are truly interested. I visit other schools and I have trained in other countries to expand my understanding. I take every opportunity to train with people from other styles to see what they also have to offer. Perhaps you should do the same. Perhaps if you emptied your cup you might even pick up something of value too.

Why would I visit a karate school in Australia that is doing the same stuff as schools here in the states?

I have a sinking suspicion that your karate students look just like those karatekas in the videos I posted.

 

[Tez3]

Hanzou, I'll give you this, you are a trier. Made me laugh.



View attachment $1907444_10152658963671605_6923530260721565703_n.jpg

 

[Argus]

Geez.

Hanzou, I see your crusade for BJJ, and I raise you my crusade for humility.

Actually, I think I'll just start crusading for humbleness across the whole forum. It's a forgotten, unrecognized virtue these days. Don't be so prideful of your knowledge, or it will seriously hamper your potential to learn and understand more.

 

[Steve]

Geez.

Hanzou, I see your crusade for BJJ, and I raise you my crusade for humility.

Actually, I think I'll just start crusading for humbleness across the whole forum. It's a forgotten, unrecognized virtue these days. Don't be so prideful of your knowledge, or it will seriously hamper your potential to learn and understand more.

Frankly, I'd settle for a little more common courtesy. You don't have to respect people to post respectfully and courteously. I'll also say that the discourtesy and disrespect are going liberally in ALL directions, not just from one particular user who practices BJJ.

 

[K-man]

Doubtful, since non-competitive karate/TKD/TSD schools spar in a similar manner.

How exactly would he test it?

Why would I visit a karate school in Australia that is doing the same stuff as schools here in the states?

I have a sinking suspicion that your karate students look just like those karatekas in the videos I posted.

And I know that that you have no idea and no interest in learning.

 

[drop bear]

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

Golly, if K Man and I are the only ones doing what we do where the hell did we learn it from? Oh I know, all the other karateka we have ever trained with over the years. I know you don't actually read anything I write and that bores me so I shall leave you to your You Tube fetish in peace.

One thing....the purpose of kata is to store/collate/record/hold all the movements and techniques of karate. It is for no other purpose. What you do with those movements is up to you depending on your mindset and your instructors. Bunkai is finding uses for those moves in self defence. Self defence and sparring will use the same movements and techniques. Again how you do that is up to you.

There are people who do kata without knowing why, people who enjoy kata and find other uses for it but nothing takes away it's original purpose...a repository of movements and techniques.

Wait just one sec because that is pretty much what I said.

"Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there."


And got this response.

"Sorry, that is purely ignorance of what kata is and what it is for. If that is what kata means to you, don't waste your time practising it and please don't even try to discuss it. It is a bit like a kindergarten kid trying to discuss the finer aspects of brain surgery with a brain surgeon."

 

[drop bear]

Most people teach a movement by demonstrating first on a non resisting uke, getting the students to learn that technique then having the students make it work against an opponent rather than a partner then to use it in a fighting/sparring situation. To do otherwise makes no sense.

We could start a thread on the qualities of a good uke couldn't we, it involves a tolerance to pain for sure.


Oh and Judo has kata, tried it once, it's a real bugger, knee walking along a mat :boing2:

I was actually going to do that thread arguing against the idea you need to thrash the hell out of the uke in demonstration. Beating on a guy just standing there proves nothing and so many people seem to feel they have to do it.

 

[Tez3]

Wait just one sec because that is pretty much what I said.

"Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there."


And got this response.

"Sorry, that is purely ignorance of what kata is and what it is for. If that is what kata means to you, don't waste your time practising it and please don't even try to discuss it. It is a bit like a kindergarten kid trying to discuss the finer aspects of brain surgery with a brain surgeon."

Excuse me? I think you should make it plain that I didn't give that response.

 

[Argus]

Frankly, I'd settle for a little more common courtesy. You don't have to respect people to post respectfully and courteously. I'll also say that the discourtesy and disrespect are going liberally in ALL directions, not just from one particular user who practices BJJ.

Well, I agree. I can't even claim to be entirely innocent myself.

Just to be clear though, I have no problem with Hanzou. He often makes good points. I just think he's getting a bit carried away and drawing a lot of negative sentiments with the way he posts. He may be deserving of that in some cases, and he might not in others, but either way, I'd rather not see people at eachother's throats every time "grappling" comes up. I mean, I know you guys like your chokes and all, but...

 

[K-man]

Sorry Tez. I'll fess up. It was me. :wavey:


For Drop Bear.
What you posted was not quite the same.
Your post suggests you believe kata is a set of movements that form the building blocks of a martial art. Although that is true in a rudimentary sense, it is not even close to what kata really is. You don't need kata for that. Then you added all the 'what it's not' stuff which is really irrelevant to kata. (Of course here I am referring to karate kata only, that is totally different to Judo kata or Ninjutsu kata.) Even so all elements of kata bunkai would be totally relevant to environment. That is up to how you train the bunkai. De-escalation, maybe, escape and evade definitely, position of disadvantage, sometimes.

Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there.

What it isn't is something that allows the person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Kata does not usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage.

Wait just one sec because that is pretty much what I said.

"Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there."

And got this response.

"Sorry, that is purely ignorance of what kata is and what it is for. If that is what kata means to you, don't waste your time practising it and please don't even try to discuss it. It is a bit like a kindergarten kid trying to discuss the finer aspects of brain surgery with a brain surgeon."

Kata, for those who study it, is so much more.

What Tez posted was ...

One thing....the purpose of kata is to store/collate/record/hold all the movements and techniques of karate. It is for no other purpose. What you do with those movements is up to you depending on your mindset and your instructors. Bunkai is finding uses for those moves in self defence. Self defence and sparring will use the same movements and techniques. Again how you do that is up to you.

The key to Tez's post is the reference to bunkai and self defence. Kata is a bit like a mnemonic. It gives you the techniques and it gives you the order, angle and direction. The bunkai gives you the application. Without understanding the meaning of the mnemonic, it is nothing more than a rhyme.

Accusing you of ignorance of the kata was not intended to be an insult. (I would have called you ignorant if if was trying to insult. I'll reserve that label for someone who deserves it far more than you.)

I am not concerned with people who do not understand kata etc. or what others do in their training but are willing to question and explore issues. What really pisses me off is when you try to explain something to someone with a closed mind who ignores any explanation you might offer. I have spent many years researching kata and I take exception when the knowledge I have obtained is dismissed out of hand by someone with no knowledge of anything, who claims to be all knowing about everything. End of rant!

 

[drop bear]

Excuse me? I think you should make it plain that I didn't give that response.

K man who thanked your post gave that response.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry Tez. I'll fess up. It was me. :wavey:


For Drop Bear.
What you posted was not quite the same.
Your post suggests you believe kata is a set of movements that form the building blocks of a martial art. Although that is true in a rudimentary sense, it is not even close to what kata really is. You don't need kata for that. Then you added all the 'what it's not' stuff which is really irrelevant to kata. (Of course here I am referring to karate kata only, that is totally different to Judo kata or Ninjutsu kata.) Even so all elements of kata bunkai would be totally relevant to environment. That is up to how you train the bunkai. De-escalation, maybe, escape and evade definitely, position of disadvantage, sometimes.




Kata, for those who study it, is so much more.

What Tez posted was ...


The key to Tez's post is the reference to bunkai and self defence. Kata is a bit like a mnemonic. It gives you the techniques and it gives you the order, angle and direction. The bunkai gives you the application. Without understanding the meaning of the mnemonic, it is nothing more than a rhyme.

Accusing you of ignorance of the kata was not intended to be an insult. (I would have called you ignorant if if was trying to insult. I'll reserve that label for someone who deserves it far more than you.)

I am not concerned with people who do not understand kata etc. or what others do in their training but are willing to question and explore issues. What really pisses me off is when you try to explain something to someone with a closed mind who ignores any explanation you might offer. I have spent many years researching kata and I take exception when the knowledge I have obtained is dismissed out of hand by someone with no knowledge of anything, who claims to be all knowing about everything. End of rant!

The bolded part is kang soo do,s post quoted and changed a bit to make the point I was trying to make a bit more pronounced. In that it is kind of ridiculous to apply that criteria to all the elements of your training.

Or even worse just to aim it at training methods you may not like or understand.

By the way. I don't like kata.

Why?

Just don't like it. Simple as that personal choice and I would prefer to do other things.

That does not reflect on kata that just reflects on me.

If I had a sudden urge to take up karate or something. I would stfu do the kata and just deal with it. Because my other belief is if you do a system you do all of it. Turn up bow, put on the uniform, learn the language the whole shebang.