OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[K-man]

I really don't think you understand my posts. You seem to be arguing a point I am not making.

Really? Then perhaps you could explain the point again.

 

[Argus]

OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism...

Actually, I can

I'm not going to claim that sparring can't be beneficial, because it absolutely can. But too much of it, especially if you're sparring for the purpose of competing in tournaments, can be very detrimental and breed a lot of misconceptions and bad habits.

First thing to realize is that tournaments, especially in the very sportive form found in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, condition fighters to adopt a very, very specific method.

For example, I went to a Karate school for a short time. And it was actually a pretty good school, with skilled practitioners and a good instructor. But they suffered from a very tournament-centric mentality in their sparring. When I sparred, I was told: No attacking the face directly, no low kicks, no grabbing, no touching an opponent's back, no touching an opponent's neck, etc. etc. Now, everyone of those things are the bread and butter of my past training -- not because they're what we aim to do, but just because of the range we fight, the lines of attack we use, etc.

Moreover, they had some very tournament-oriented habits, and were used to dealing only with very cautious opponents who kept their distance. They practiced leaning far back to avoid kicks and punches, and retracting their hands without worry of being followed in. My first time sparring, I sparred against a senior student; I followed his punch in, and as I did, he leaned back, and I gently placed my fist on his chest, causing him to fall over. Sparring with other students, I also found many of the lines of attack I was required to use to be awkward and limit how I could intercept or make contact with my opponent. And had to keep correcting my habits of wanting to control someone's hand or elbow.

This kind of practice, in my opinion, teaches students that it's safe to do all kinds of things that are in fact pretty dangerous.

I've always wondered why Karate guys don't do more "touching hands" in the way that you see in Chinese Martial Arts. I feel like this is a very good way to become well-rounded and understand how to apply what you learn in forms in an unscripted way, yet I've never seen it done outside of TCMA and FMA. You don't always have to be throwing kicks and punches at full speed -- you can practice freely touching hands and using whatever techniques you want in a safe and controlled manner, with the aim of learning more so than competing.

 

[MJS]

Kata is pretty much an arranged set of movements that tend to form the building blocks of a martial art. So it is sort of a resource that you take the core ideas and build from there.
What it isn't is something that allows the person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Kata does not usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage.

On the flip side, how many MMA/BJJ gyms do you see working those things? Hey, perhaps they are out there, I really don't know. What I do know, is that many of the gyms that're in my area, are not teaching that. Sure, they may offer a separate program that does address those things, but no, I've yet to see a MMA gym in my area that teaches weapon use, defense, de-escalation, etc, etc.



[/QUOTE]

Yeah not kata based on its own merits. There are two preconceptions we are working with here. One training has to resemble fighting. And two in a fight you will revert to your training and fight like that.

These are important preconceptions because that is the base issue here.

Valid points. Speaking only for myself, while I do kata, I'm not as into it as other area. In other words, you have guys like Ian, that'll really, really break down every move, come up with fighting application, etc. No, I've never met or trained with the man. I do kata, because it's a part of the arts that I do. I do have an understanding of the moves in the kata that I do. However, I do not use kata for fighting purposes, so no, I most likely, will not revert back to anything, other than what I mainly focus on.

 

[MJS]

Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?

Again, kata in the karate sense is empty hand. Certainly some bunkai could be used against weapons.

Interestingly enough, the empty hand kata, or anyos, as they're called in Arnis, deal with both empty and armed opponents.

I'm not disagreeing with your post here, I'm just pointing out more fact to what you already said.

 

[mcmoon]

Really? Then perhaps you could explain the point again.

I will try and help out here. In another thread KSD stated that sparring was detrimental to real self defense because of the things drop bear quoted but KSD was pro kata as a training tool. Drop bear is saying that is illogical that you can discount one thing using your own predefined guidelines and be for another that goes against those same guidelines.

 

[Tez3]

In all my years in karate, we rarely sparred for competition purposes, we sparred for training purposes. That was the laboratory to experiment on the techniques we learned, and for developing our personal fighting style. The same applies currently in Bjj, where we spar constantly. If you're not pulling these bunkai out during sparring, I highly doubt you could pull them out during a self defense situation. How could you? You never integrated those movements into your personal fighting style.

What you do in your training is not what I do in mine, those movements are integrated into my personal fighting style, why wouldn't they be?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Really? Then perhaps you could explain the point again.

If drop bear doesn't object, I'll reiterate my interpretation of what he was getting at. I can see how his point could be missed by anyone who wasn't following the other thread in its entirety.

I don't believe this thread was intended as a diss on kata in any way.

It's fine to practice kata for whatever benefits you feel it brings for self-defense.

It's fine to practice sparring for whatever benefits you feel it brings for self-defense.

It's fine to prefer kata to sparring because you value the specific benefits of the one over the other. (I might disagree with you, but there's nothing logically inconsistent about your position.)

It's seemingly contradictory to say "sparring is not good for self-defense training because it lacks elements A, B, C, D & E, but kata is just fine for self-defense training even though it lacks elements A, B, C, D & E." This is the exact claim that Kong made in the other thread, and it is this claim which drop bear is responding to.

Because I have a lot of respect for Kong, I'm racking my brain to come up with an explanation for how this position can not be self-contradictory. The best I've been able to come up with is something like this: "The positive values of sparring for self-defense training are (1, 2, 3). These values would be greatly enhanced by including A, B, C, D & E, which would transform it into scenario training. Therefore, sparring is a suboptimal self-defense training tool, at least compared to scenario training. In contrast, the positive values of kata for self-defense training are (4, 5, 6). These particular values are not enhanced by including A, B, C, D & E because (insert explanation here). Therefore kata is valuable as a training method with purposes distinct from scenario training while sparring is better replaced by scenario training."

Kong would have to fill in details 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and *insert explanation here*, but this would be a non-self-contradictory argument that would be consistent with his statements in the other thread. I'll be interested to see if he's willing to fill in those details or offer some other non-inconsistent argument.

 

[K-man]

I've always wondered why Karate guys don't do more "touching hands" in the way that you see in Chinese Martial Arts. I feel like this is a very good way to become well-rounded and understand how to apply what you learn in forms in an unscripted way, yet I've never seen it done outside of TCMA and FMA. You don't always have to be throwing kicks and punches at full speed -- you can practice freely touching hands and using whatever techniques you want in a safe and controlled manner, with the aim of learning more so than competing.

We do it all the time. It is the basis of our training to apply locks and holds, to work against weapons and to do takedowns. We use it as a starting point for bunkai and for our form of sparring. It is traditional in Okinawa often seen as Kakie. It stands to reason that if karate developed from the CMAs then it must have included the same training at some point.
:asian:

 

[Tez3]

I will try and help out here. In another thread KSD stated that sparring was detrimental to real self defense because of the things drop bear quoted but KSD was pro kata as a training tool. Drop bear is saying that is illogical that you can discount one thing using your own predefined guidelines and be for another that goes against those same guidelines.

Let me sort his out for you, KSD stated he thought that sparring........... I'm sure he will explain for himself why he thinks that but to assume everyone thinks the same in anything let alone martial arts is to be on a slippery slope. It sounds to me that this would have been better discussed by PM or a more understandable question posed for general discussion.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Actually, I can

I'm not going to claim that sparring can't be beneficial, because it absolutely can. But too much of it, especially if you're sparring for the purpose of competing in tournaments, can be very detrimental and breed a lot of misconceptions and bad habits.

First thing to realize is that tournaments, especially in the very sportive form found in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, condition fighters to adopt a very, very specific method.

For example, I went to a Karate school for a short time. And it was actually a pretty good school, with skilled practitioners and a good instructor. But they suffered from a very tournament-centric mentality in their sparring. When I sparred, I was told: No attacking the face directly, no low kicks, no grabbing, no touching an opponent's back, no touching an opponent's neck, etc. etc. Now, everyone of those things are the bread and butter of my past training -- not because they're what we aim to do, but just because of the range we fight, the lines of attack we use, etc.

Moreover, they had some very tournament-oriented habits, and were used to dealing only with very cautious opponents who kept their distance. They practiced leaning far back to avoid kicks and punches, and retracting their hands without worry of being followed in. My first time sparring, I sparred against a senior student; I followed his punch in, and as I did, he leaned back, and I gently placed my fist on his chest, causing him to fall over. Sparring with other students, I also found many of the lines of attack I was required to use to be awkward and limit how I could intercept or make contact with my opponent. And had to keep correcting my habits of wanting to control someone's hand or elbow.

This kind of practice, in my opinion, teaches students that it's safe to do all kinds of things that are in fact pretty dangerous.

I've always wondered why Karate guys don't do more "touching hands" in the way that you see in Chinese Martial Arts. I feel like this is a very good way to become well-rounded and understand how to apply what you learn in forms in an unscripted way, yet I've never seen it done outside of TCMA and FMA. You don't always have to be throwing kicks and punches at full speed -- you can practice freely touching hands and using whatever techniques you want in a safe and controlled manner, with the aim of learning more so than competing.

I agree with your observations, but that's not an argument against sparring. It's an argument against sparring in a stupid way that builds terrible habits. At my school, punches to the face, low kicks, grabbing, contact with the back and neck, close range aggressive attacks, controlling hands & elbows, etc are all a normal part of the process.

 

[mcmoon]

Let me sort his out for you, KSD stated he thought that sparring........... I'm sure he will explain for himself why he thinks that but to assume everyone thinks the same in anything let alone martial arts is to be on a slippery slope. It sounds to me that this would have been better discussed by PM or a more understandable question posed for general discussion.

Drop Bear wasn't trying to bash kata(He may have worded it wrong) but to point out the inconsistencies in KSD's arguement. KSD said something about starting a new thread if he felt like discussing that point as to not derail the previous thread.

 

[Tez3]

Drop Bear wasn't trying to bash kata(He may have worded it wrong) but to point out the inconsistencies in KSD's arguement. KSD said something about starting a new thread if he felt like discussing that point as to not derail the previous thread.

So where did I say he was trying to bash kata? I was pointing out to you that what you said was incorrect, KSD stated what he thought not what the rest of us does.
As I said better sorted out by PM or a thread with an understandable title.

 

[mcmoon]

So where did I say he was trying to bash kata? I was pointing out to you that what you said was incorrect, KSD stated what he thought not what the rest of us does.
As I said better sorted out by PM or a thread with an understandable title.

Oh ok got it, misread what you wrote. May have been better with another title and really unless everyone was following the other thread I can understand how it would be misinterpreted. The reason it wasn't probably done through PM is because KSD mentioned starting a new thread and like me and a few others that were in the other thread would like to know his reasoning as well.

 

[Hanzou]

What you do in your training is not what I do in mine, those movements are integrated into my personal fighting style, why wouldn't they be?

Really? Could you link me to your school's website, or provide a video where you guys are implementing bunkai in your sparring? I would very much like to see this in action.

 

[Tez3]

Really? Could you link me to your school's website, or provide a video where you guys are implementing bunkai in your sparring? I would very much like to see this in action.

Good grief it's not difficult! I think you imagine we do the movements exactly as they are done in a kata, movement by movement in the exact order they come. Actually if you are aware of Iain's work you should know exactly what we do. Do you think that the movements from a kata are different somehow from movements used in sparring, you don't elbow, knee, kick, punch? On Iain's seminars he even shows, because he knows I also do MMA, movements that are useful for MMA and yes they work because the kata is basically an aide memoire of movements that can be made, ways to use those movements etc.
A boxing instructor will use a very simple kata to teach beginners, it will be something like... jab, cross, uppercut, hook, he will have the students go over them in that order for a few times to make sure they know how to do the movement correctly and they remember them. Now, do they fight with the movements in that order, do they always use them in that order, do they not use them when sparring? Of course they use them in sparring and of course they use them in a different order sometimes they may miss one, they mix them up, come from different angles when they've learned them. That's what kata is, the bunkai is the unlocking of the movements so you have an arsenal of movements you can use, it will teach you the best way and the best time to use them as well so of course you use it in sparring, it's all the techniques of karate so why wouldn't you.

 

[K-man]

Really? Could you link me to your school's website, or provide a video where you guys are implementing bunkai in your sparring? I would very much like to see this in action.

Why should Tez bother. You asked me to do the same. I posted it and you just said that that wasn't the way the schools you had seen trained. And remember, the bunkai isn't implemented in your sparring. It is your sparring. You don't use it all the time. It depends on the situation.

 

[Hanzou]

Good grief it's not difficult! I think you imagine we do the movements exactly as they are done in a kata, movement by movement in the exact order they come. Actually if you are aware of Iain's work you should know exactly what we do. Do you think that the movements from a kata are different somehow from movements used in sparring, you don't elbow, knee, kick, punch? On Iain's seminars he even shows, because he knows I also do MMA, movements that are useful for MMA and yes they work because the kata is basically an aide memoire of movements that can be made, ways to use those movements etc.
A boxing instructor will use a very simple kata to teach beginners, it will be something like... jab, cross, uppercut, hook, he will have the students go over them in that order for a few times to make sure they know how to do the movement correctly and they remember them. Now, do they fight with the movements in that order, do they always use them in that order, do they not use them when sparring? Of course they use them in sparring and of course they use them in a different order sometimes they may miss one, they mix them up, come from different angles when they've learned them. That's what kata is, the bunkai is the unlocking of the movements so you have an arsenal of movements you can use, it will teach you the best way and the best time to use them as well so of course you use it in sparring, it's all the techniques of karate so why wouldn't you.

It's not about fighting in order particular order. It's about seeing stuff like this;

or this;

In karate sparring that looks typically like this;

or this;

If the kata truly did what you claim, karatekas would look like their kata while fighting (or at least similar to Abernethy's demos).

Except they don't. They resemble kickboxers with their hands lowered.

In short, the evidence doesn't support your claims.

 

[Hanzou]

Why should Tez bother. You asked me to do the same. I posted it and you just said that that wasn't the way the schools you had seen trained. And remember, the bunkai isn't implemented in your sparring. It is your sparring. You don't use it all the time. It depends on the situation.

You showed me a seminar with a sensei drilling techniques into a compliant partner.

That ain't sparring.

 

[K-man]

It's not about fighting in order particular order. It's about seeing stuff like this;

or this;

In karate sparring that looks typically like this;

or this;

If the kata truly did what you claim, karatekas would look like their kata while fighting (or at least similar to Abernethy's demos).

Except they don't. They resemble kickboxers with their hands lowered.

In short, the evidence doesn't support your claims.

You show Iain teaching bunkai. Now if my memory serves me right his style is Wado Ryu which includes jujutsu. Then you post video of Shotokan which doesn't. You post video of material that is not designed to be used in the ting then show people who have never trained it in their life and ask why they don't fight like you see in the bunkai. And again, you are ignorant to the difference between kata and bunkai.

 

[K-man]

You showed me a seminar with a sensei drilling techniques into a compliant partner.

That ain't sparring.

Yes it is the training part just the same as you would teach someone to roll. Once you build up the speed and intensity it certainly is sparring, and you have taken it out of context. Taira normally demonstrates the bunkai in its entirety. Obviously a fight doesn't proceed like that. But again, I explained it in detail once before. You didn't listen then. Why would you listen now? You are a bigot.