OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[Tez3]

Glad that's cleared up...ish.

I think many people have the wrong idea about katas, they imagine it's how one is supposed to fight, one kata movement after another which would be pretty weird actually. Another thing I'm not sure people realise is that karate styles differ from each other, Wado for example has short stances not the long ones you often associate with 'karate', it does it's 'high' blocks differently and it contains a lot of throws, takedowns and grappling type movements.
I think too there's difficulty in understanding the concept of Bunkai, the best analogy I can think of at the moment ( someone else can come up with a better one I'm sure!) is to think of an old fashioned tailors shop, in the back he has hundreds of paper patterns...the kata.. for all sorts of clothes, he knows from experience and being taught by a master tailor which patterns work best with which material and for what purpose, that's the Bunkai. You can of course do without the Bunkai, just use the pattern pieces as you want, it makes it more hit or miss that the trousers will match the jacket and that the waistcoat goes with both but the suit will still be a suit at the end of the day and will do the job. Bunkai takes the guessing and hoping it will be fine out of the equation. It does allows for experimentation, working out which material is right for which garment, you don't want a dress made out of heavy tweed and a suit made of flimsy lace necessarily though if that works for you it's good to know before you wear it. Being able to pick the right material for the right situation instinctively could be a life saver, which is why Bunkai is mostly and mainly for self defence (almost exclusively actually but never say it's never used for something else!) , the movements in kata though are those in karate so you can easily use moves from kata in sparring indeed you would be hard pushed not to!
That's probably as clear as mud especially to those with minds made up already but hey I tried :boing2:

 

[Paul_D]

So when you're defending yourself from an attacker meaning to do you harm, you're not going to be fighting? That is the purpose behind the kata right? Self defense purposes.

No you are not going to be fighting them. Fighting is not the same as self defence. Yes the purpose of kata is self defence, not fighting. Are you saying that you think fighting and self defence are the same thing?

 

[K-man]

Hmm! This promises to be interesting.

opcorn:

 

[Paul_D]

Why would they be using competition rules during a black belt test?



Well that's easy;

Non compliant doesn't mean that the person is trying to harm the other person. Non compliant means that your partner is trying to prevent your technique while similarly trying to apply his techniques as well.

Abernethy in comparison;

That is a demonstration. His partner is complaint and is NOT trying to prevent Iain's technique.

Non compliance is required for BJJ or any comeptition. It is required becasue you are competing against a skilled/trained martial artist. Therefore once you get the in a position to apply an armbar (for example) they know what is coming and will resist. In order therefore to win a competition, you need to be able to to apply your armber (or any other techniques) against a skilled opponent who not only recognises what is coming, but also probably knows some sort of counter.

As you have chosen to post a video of Iain's Naihanchi Bunaki, I will use this as an example. The opening movement of Naihanchi is a pre-emptive strike to the carotid sinus. Such a strike will at best KO or at worse lead to severe disorientation. How therefore does an untraiend street thug prevent:-

A) a pre-emptive strike he doesn't know is coming
b) resit the following technique when he is either unconscious or severely disorientated.

How to you test these techniques against a non complaint partner? You cannot punch someoen in the throat and then test if they are able to resist whatever you chose to follow that up with.

If you wish to see video's of Karateka training differently then you can I suggest you purchase Iain's video Kata Based Sparring, in which he Demonstartes how he pressure tests the technique of kata against resistant opponents in sparring (sans the pre-emptive strikes used to gain compliance).

 

[Hanzou]

Non compliance is required for BJJ or any comeptition.

Its required for non competition fighting/self defense as well.

It is required becasue you are competing against a skilled/trained martial artist. Therefore once you get the in a position to apply an armbar (for example) they know what is coming and will resist. In order therefore to win a competition, you need to be able to to apply your armber (or any other techniques) against a skilled opponent who not only recognises what is coming, but also probably knows some sort of counter.

And if you can perform an armbar against a skilled martial artist or grappler, imagine what you can do against an unskilled person.

As you have chosen to post a video of Iain's Naihanchi Bunaki, I will use this as an example. The opening movement of Naihanchi is a pre-emptive strike to the carotid sinus. Such a strike will at best KO or at worse lead to severe disorientation. How therefore does an untraiend street thug prevent:-

A) a pre-emptive strike he doesn't know is coming
b) resit the following technique when he is either unconscious or severely disorientated.

How to you test these techniques against a non complaint partner? You cannot punch someoen in the throat and then test if they are able to resist whatever you chose to follow that up with.

In other words you're not testing the technique. Thus when it comes time to actually use the technique (even in practice), you don't have the ability to utilize it properly because you never actually used the technique before.

Hence why those karatekas spar the way they do.

If you wish to see video's of Karateka training differently then you can I suggest you purchase Iain's video Kata Based Sparring, in which he Demonstartes how he pressure tests the technique of kata against resistant opponents in sparring (sans the pre-emptive strikes used to gain compliance).

One guy doing it doesn't really change the conversation. The vast majority of karate schools are not fighting that way. Assuming that Iain is actually doing kata-based sparring of course.

 

[Tez3]

'Not testing the technique' this is annoying because you don't read and inwardly digest what others have written.

Firstly the videos show clips of Iain demonstrating the technique, well he has to doesn't he otherwise how the hell do you know what it is? next you learn the technique in whatever manner you learn. Then you can 'pressure test it' on a non compliant opponent/partner/uke. do you think we just watch the videos or Iain himself just demo-ing things and go 'oh right, ok I'll do that if I'm attacked', then go off and have a cuppa? If you train with Iain, he explains, demos then you practice, he makes sure you have grasped the techniques then you go for it within reason, the exceptions being as Paul has explained those techniques which will cause a bit more than pain.

I think there's some very odd ideas of what happens when you train going on. I train BJJ as well, guess what, our instructor demo's it on a willing volunteer (lol) first he will do it full speed but not full on, then he demos it slowly so we can see what he's doing, then he asks 'any questions' then we partner up and try to do that techniques on compliant partners because neither of us know the techniques and we help each other work it out, it often takes two, we often ask for help from the instructor who will help place arms, legs etc. so we learn the move, then we grapple, usually back to back so we can practice actually using the technique on someone resisting and also trying to put it on you. Guess what, we do exactly the same when learning self defence movements. We know how to use those techniques because we practice, we don't however punch each other in the throat. what we don't do is just watch videos. When training self defence we use as realistic scenarios as we can and guess what we practice the kata which has the techniques in, we don't go mindlessly through the katas, while do each movement we know in our heads what it is for, we also use visualisation, a very valuable tool as many sports psychologists will tell you. For us training includes crowd and riot control type scenarios nut that's us and what we do outside the club lol.
I don't know what this nonsense about not testing the techniques comes from. Also nonsense is this repeated mantra of 'how karateka spar' self defence isn't sparring, even the children know that. :lfao:

Perhaps what is baffling some is that there are more elements in karate than there are in some other styles, this is neither good nor bad it just needs understanding.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So you wanted this thread. You have it.

Since my last (only) post in this thread I've been out in the deep woods on an SEP Gathering. Just got back and have been catching up on emails and various posts. I have not read all the pages of this thread and I'm unlikely to do so, however, I'll touch on a few things starting with Drop Bear's respnse. To begin with, DB you're either very confused or very dishonest. As in my last post to you, I suggested that if YOU wanted to gain a better understanding of kata then you should start a thread and seek others input. So which is it, are you confused or dishonest?

The thread is not about kata. It is about katas relevance according to your set of standards.

Which are two things from a previous thread separated by multiple pages and not linked in anyway in that thread. You're linking two things that were in different conversations.

Does kata fail when subjected to your tests?

Why would it?

A kata contains principles on combat. One can have a periphreal understanding of the individual movements or a more in-depth understanding. As I always like to use as an example, the opening movements of Pinan Shodan can be viewed as a block (and a rather inefficent block) or it can be viewed as a shoulder lock (and a rather effective one). Further, the shoulder lock demonstrates and effective principle of locking that can be succesful standing or in the prone position and even from a grapple. This provides quite a bit of training and drilling and use on just ONE movement from the kata. In fact, one could train several sessions to several months on just this one movement and the techniques that flow from it.

Does it succed or fail when subject to the list I posted in the sparring thread? Is this a serious question? No, it really isn't but I'll point out the obvious to you anyway. Using the above shoulder lock again as the example, can you use it indoors and out? Yes. Can you use it in full light or dim light? Yes. Can you use it when defending against multiple opponents? Yes. Can it be used in a scenario based drill? All day long. Shall I go on down the list?

Kata is meant to be broken down into bunkai. Bunkai can be drilled individually by rote or in live action scenario based drills. Kata is not utilized by every art as a training methodology. It is however used in many arts as an effective training methodology. Kata can be nothing more than a pre-arranged dance learned to get to the next colored belt (i.e. a class filler) or it can be an indepth tool of study containing a multitude of real world effective principles that can be used in a violent altercation.

 

[Hanzou]

Firstly the videos show clips of Iain demonstrating the technique, well he has to doesn't he otherwise how the hell do you know what it is? next you learn the technique in whatever manner you learn. Then you can 'pressure test it' on a non compliant opponent/partner/uke. do you think we just watch the videos or Iain himself just demo-ing things and go 'oh right, ok I'll do that if I'm attacked', then go off and have a cuppa? If you train with Iain, he explains, demos then you practice, he makes sure you have grasped the techniques then you go for it within reason, the exceptions being as Paul has explained those techniques which will cause a bit more than pain.

Partner drills is not the same as free sparring, nor is it a very high level of resistance, no matter how much uke is "resisting" you.

You bring up how we train in Bjj, and that's quite similar to how we train at my school, and in turn that's very similar to how you would train at that Abernethy seminar. The difference being of course is the roll. Rolling is the laboratory in which we test the techniques we learned at full resistance against a non-compliant partner. Since its relatively safe, it allows us to achieve a high level of grappling skill relatively quickly.

I don't know what this nonsense about not testing the techniques comes from.

It comes from the fact that you can't punch people in the throat or elbow them in the face during practice. So how do you ever really pressure test the technique? Simple, you don't. You certainly perform the motions, but unless you're constantly hitting a variety of resisting opponents in the throat with an attack, you're not really testing the technique. So when the time comes to actually use the technique against someone trying to do you harm, you don't have the background knowledge to actually utilize the technique properly, giving it a higher likelihood to fail.


That is a limitation of striking arts in general, not just Karate.

In Bjj, I've choked out skinny guys, big guys, untrained guys, and even a few women. None of them wanted to get choked out, and all of them provided a high level of resistance which forced me to use a high level of skill to achieve the choke. Thus when the time came when I needed to apply a choke on someone who was trying to do me harm, I was able to apply a choke swiftly and efficiently. It was so swift in fact that I needed to release far more quickly than I anticipated.

Perhaps what is baffling some is that there are more elements in karate than there are in some other styles, this is neither good nor bad it just needs understanding.

Karate is a very broad art. It is unfortunate that most karate dojos simply skim the surface.

 

[Paul_D]

Partner drills is not the same as free sparring, nor is it a very high level of resistance, no matter how much uke is "resisting" you.

I know, that's why it's called kata based sparring, not kata based partner drills.

You bring up how we train in Bjj, and that's quite similar to how we train at my school, and in turn that's very similar to how you would train at that Abernethy seminar. The difference being of course is the roll. Rolling is the laboratory in which we test the techniques we learned at full resistance against a non-compliant partner. Since its relatively safe, it allows us to achieve a high level of grappling skill relatively quickly.

As is kata based sparring (Well I dint bring up BJJ, you did by posting video)

It comes from the fact that you can't punch people in the throat or elbow them in the face during practice. So how do you ever really pressure test the technique? Simple, you don't. You certainly perform the motions, but unless you're constantly hitting a variety of resisting opponents in the throat with an attack, you're not really testing the technique. So when the time comes to actually use the technique against someone trying to do you harm, you don't have the background knowledge to actually utilize the technique properly, giving it a higher likelihood to fail.

Again, in SD you are not fighting a skilled trained martial artist (unless BJJers are in the habit of starting street brawls?) who will know what is coming and then be able to resists it or use a counter technique. I therefore do not have to pressure test it against a skilled and trained martial artist as skilled/trained martial artists aren't my enemy in SD.

Choki motub reguallrly tested his kata in "the street" and said “The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.” The key here is "someone who had no idea of the strategy being used".

In Bjj, I've choked out skinny guys, big guys, untrained guys, and even a few women. None of them wanted to get choked out, and all of them provided a high level of resistance which forced me to use a high level of skill to achieve the choke.Thus when the time came when I needed to apply a choke on someone who was trying to do me harm, I was able to apply a choke swiftly and efficiently. It was so swift in fact that I needed to release far more quickly than I anticipated.

So you have just proved my, and Choki Motobu's, once you used it on someone who was untrained there was no resistance, becasue he had no training he had no idea what was going on and therefore couldn't in your words "prevent" or "apply his own technique" (i.e. counter).

Comparing training with skilled martial artists and untrained thugs is comparing apples and organges,

Karate is a very broad art. It is unfortunate that most karate dojos simply skim the surface.

Agreed. It is a great art, but the majority of Karate clubs effectively do little more than a physical fitness training regime based around karate. Even the teachers often don't even understand the art they claim to teach, which can clearly be seen in their interpretation of Bunkai.

 

[Cirdan]

Sniff! Is that the old stale and rotten smell of the "aliveness" argument in the air?

Methinks a real blast from the past this thread is becomming.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, in SD you are not fighting a skilled trained martial artist (unless BJJers are in the habit of starting street brawls?) who will know what is coming and then be able to resists it or use a counter technique. I therefore do not have to pressure test it against a skilled and trained martial artist as skilled/trained martial artists aren't my enemy in SD.

Just because someone is unskilled doesn't mean that they can't fully resist your technique, especially if you've never really applied it before.

Choki motub reguallrly tested his kata in "the street" and said “The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.” The key here is "someone who had no idea of the strategy being used".

Interesting theory, but I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with Motub for a variety of reasons.

So you have just proved my, and Choki Motobu's, once you used it on someone who was untrained there was no resistance, becasue he had no training he had no idea what was going on and therefore couldn't in your words "prevent" or "apply his own technique" (i.e. counter).

He had no idea because most people have no clue about high level grappling. However, people are very familiar with kicks and punches. When I started karate for example, I had some idea of what was going on. When I started Bjj, I was on a completely different planet.

Agreed. It is a great art, but the majority of Karate clubs effectively do little more than a physical fitness training regime based around karate. Even the teachers often don't even understand the art they claim to teach, which can clearly be seen in their interpretation of Bunkai.

Well, I'm glad we at least agree on something.

 

[Paul_D]

Its required for non competition fighting/self defense as well.

I have taken the time to explain why I believe it is required for competition, and why it is not necessarily required for SD. You have every right to disagree with me, but for you to just post this comment and then not explain why is not only rather rude, but is the equivalent of children arguing in a school yard "yes it is"/"no it isn't".

Your other responses to myself and others show that you have not actually paying any attention to what people are saying or taking on board any of our points. You are simply quoting our replies, ignoring them, and continuing to repeat your own viewpoint ad infinitum.

I cannot see you taking on board anything anyone is saying if it is different from your own view point, and so I see little point in continuing the discussion with you. If I wanted that sort of argument there are plenty of other MA forums on the web I can go to for that.

 

[Tez3]

Dear me, it's partner drills to learn it then with us you go for it, did you miss that bit, you go for it.
.Oh and Kihons!

 

[tshadowchaser]

reading this thread is alot like watching tag team boxing or tag team wrestling.
lets all pick a partner and a side and ...............Oh do we actually resist or do we do motions against non-resistive.
people it is time o agree to disagree with each other on this on

 

[Tez3]

reading this thread is alot like watching tag team boxing or tag team wrestling.
lets all pick a partner and a side and ...............Oh do we actually resist or do we do motions against non-resistive.
people it is time o agree to disagree with each other on this on

Actually it's not, it's about people explaining how and what they think as happens in a discussion or debate, and then being told, rudely, that they know nothing about their own training. it's fine to disagree among ourselves what is not fine is to style bash and to tell people they are wrong because we are doing the 'wrong' style of martial art.

 

[Hanzou]

I have taken the time to explain why I believe it is required for competition, and why it is not necessarily required for SD. You have every right to disagree with me, but for you to just post this comment and then not explain why is not only rather rude, but is the equivalent of children arguing in a school yard "yes it is"/"no it isn't".

Except I did explain why its also necessary for SD, you simply missed it.

Again, if I'm doing a movement constantly in practice under significant pressure, I'm more capable of doing that same movement in a SD situation where I am again under significant pressure.

If I'm doing a pre-arranged form, without significant pressure, I am less capable of doing that same movement in a SD situation where I am under significant pressure.

As stated before, if we have two Bjj black belts, and one did his techniques flawlessly against a dummy, and another did his techniques flawlessly against a variety of living, breathing, resisting opponents while rolling, who would you believe to be the superior Bjj black belt?

Kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring isn't much different than doing techniques on a dummy.

I cannot see you taking on board anything anyone is saying if it is different from your own view point, and so I see little point in continuing the discussion with you. If I wanted that sort of argument there are plenty of other MA forums on the web I can go to for that.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring isn't much different than doing techniques on a dummy.

No it is not.

You do not require another person or a dummy to practice kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring are not like doing techniques on a dummy unless it is a sentient animatronic dummy. They are somewhere in between doing it solo and doing it on a fully resisting opponent..

 

[Hanzou]

No it is not.

You do not require another person or a dummy to practice kata, pre-arranged drills, and one step sparring are not like doing techniques on a dummy unless it is a sentient animatronic dummy. They are somewhere in between doing it solo and doing it on a fully resisting opponent..

You misunderstand. I'm saying that those training practices is like a Bjj guy training on a dummy instead of a living opponent.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You misunderstand. I'm saying that those training practices is like a Bjj guy training on a dummy instead of a living opponent.

So then why is practicing a technique in a pre-arranged drill on another person in other arts like Karate and TKD different than practicing a technique on a BJJ mat on another person? Because you seem to think there's a fundamental difference, there's not.

 

[Hanzou]

So then why is practicing a technique in a pre-arranged drill on another person in other arts like Karate and TKD different than practicing a technique on a BJJ mat on another person? Because you seem to think there's a fundamental difference, there's not.

Again, I said the difference maker is the fact that we have rolling/sparring where we get to test the techniques we learn under significant pressure and resistance against other skilled grapplers.

Thus when we grapple someone who isn't a skilled grappler, this happens;