OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.
- Thread starter drop bear
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
One of those vids shows the Bunkai for Bassai Dai. Bassai Dai is a kata within Shotokan karate as well.
I'm pretty sure Abernathy has books on the Heian katas as well.
Edit: Yep;
http://www.iainabernethy.com/Pinan_Heian_Series.pdf
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But they normally don't teach them within Shotokan! If you don't use the kata as a fighting system you are never going to use it to fight. Oh, and Iain has done work on the Goju kata as well. So what? You are fixated on proving nothing else but your precious BJJ has any use.
I think Chris got it right Horatio!
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well here is Wado Ryu sparring;
I'm not seeing much of a difference...
I'm sorry you believe that.
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OP
OP
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Obviously a harder concept to covey than I thought. I am not Shakespeare. It happens. Otherwise we are all out here testing a theory and having a little fun.
I don't think a pm would have solved much.
(I dont think Kong so do likes me)
OP
OP
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Actually, I can
I'm not going to claim that sparring can't be beneficial, because it absolutely can. But too much of it, especially if you're sparring for the purpose of competing in tournaments, can be very detrimental and breed a lot of misconceptions and bad habits.
First thing to realize is that tournaments, especially in the very sportive form found in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, condition fighters to adopt a very, very specific method.
For example, I went to a Karate school for a short time. And it was actually a pretty good school, with skilled practitioners and a good instructor. But they suffered from a very tournament-centric mentality in their sparring. When I sparred, I was told: No attacking the face directly, no low kicks, no grabbing, no touching an opponent's back, no touching an opponent's neck, etc. etc. Now, everyone of those things are the bread and butter of my past training -- not because they're what we aim to do, but just because of the range we fight, the lines of attack we use, etc.
Moreover, they had some very tournament-oriented habits, and were used to dealing only with very cautious opponents who kept their distance. They practiced leaning far back to avoid kicks and punches, and retracting their hands without worry of being followed in. My first time sparring, I sparred against a senior student; I followed his punch in, and as I did, he leaned back, and I gently placed my fist on his chest, causing him to fall over. Sparring with other students, I also found many of the lines of attack I was required to use to be awkward and limit how I could intercept or make contact with my opponent. And had to keep correcting my habits of wanting to control someone's hand or elbow.
This kind of practice, in my opinion, teaches students that it's safe to do all kinds of things that are in fact pretty dangerous.
I've always wondered why Karate guys don't do more "touching hands" in the way that you see in Chinese Martial Arts. I feel like this is a very good way to become well-rounded and understand how to apply what you learn in forms in an unscripted way, yet I've never seen it done outside of TCMA and FMA. You don't always have to be throwing kicks and punches at full speed -- you can practice freely touching hands and using whatever techniques you want in a safe and controlled manner, with the aim of learning more so than competing.
OK I do mma. I spar bjj, judo, boxing ,kickboxing,wrestling and so on. None of those arts apply all the tools I would use in a fight or even in mma.
But within those arts are concepts that help my fighting and my mma.
Which is kind of the kata is worthwhile argument.
So tell me the context. Looked like competition to me. Not one attempt to clinch and grapple.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Actually there was at the 0.50 mark. It was just sloppily applied, and failed miserably.
Of course, it could be that sparring and SD are 2 different things. Yes, I know where this is going, as it's been said before....what you see someone in a BJj class doing, is exactly what they'll do when they compete. Oddly enough, when you see a boxer hitting the pads, you see a preset pattern. He's drilling a specific set of punches. Yet when he's in the ring, he's not throwing the same pattern. Sure, he's throwing the same punches, but he's throwing them according to what his opponent is doing.
The problem with showing videos as 'evidence' is that what you are showing actually isn't evidence. Post up a video saying this is Wado sparring and what you have is two people sparring as they do it. It doesn't mean they are the best at Wado, it could be a Wado sport derivative, it could be two guys who are very poor at sparring, it could be a demo type thing at a grading. It's not proof of 'Wado Ryu' sparring, it's proof of two guys sparring not very seriously.
When you see Iain demonstrating movements that's exactly what you see him doing, nothing more, nothing less, have you seen him sparring? have you been to any of his seminars? show me any instructor that doesn't demonstrate. Kata bunkai is mainly for self defence but there are good elements in it that you can easily put into sparring.
People new to boxing and martial arts have trouble sparring for a number of reasons mostly though because someone is punching them back which the bags don't often do.
Anyway, why does it always have to be 'my way or you are wrong'? The 'I don't like/understand kata so it must be useless' argument is an old and tired. Just train how you like to train and leave the rest of us out of the ego trip. Oh and Bassai in Shotokan is different from Bassai in Wado. I'm Wado and TSD (where it's different again) as well as MMA.
I accept people train differently from me, it doesn't make me right and them wrong, it makes it different training. Telling people they don't do what they are doing is just weird .....and rude. Don't like kata? Fine don't do it. End of.
When you see Iain demonstrating movements that's exactly what you see him doing, nothing more, nothing less, have you seen him sparring? have you been to any of his seminars? show me any instructor that doesn't demonstrate. Kata bunkai is mainly for self defence but there are good elements in it that you can easily put into sparring.
People new to boxing and martial arts have trouble sparring for a number of reasons mostly though because someone is punching them back which the bags don't often do.
Anyway, why does it always have to be 'my way or you are wrong'? The 'I don't like/understand kata so it must be useless' argument is an old and tired. Just train how you like to train and leave the rest of us out of the ego trip. Oh and Bassai in Shotokan is different from Bassai in Wado. I'm Wado and TSD (where it's different again) as well as MMA.
I accept people train differently from me, it doesn't make me right and them wrong, it makes it different training. Telling people they don't do what they are doing is just weird .....and rude. Don't like kata? Fine don't do it. End of.
This is MMA fighting.
Worst MMA fighter ever Top 5 hilarious more on www.boxen-ratingen.de - YouTube
Worst MMA fighter ever Top 5 hilarious more on www.boxen-ratingen.de - YouTube
Not in a car but I have done it sitting in a chair in a limited fashion.
Do you do double leg take downs in a car?
Do you pull guard in a car?
Do you do flying kicks in a car?
Neither is shadow sparring/shadow boxing, pad work or a multitude of other training methods.
OP
OP
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
You know you are right. That whole concept sound a little flawed.
Although best not done while driving, visualisation is a very good tool you can use when not able to train physically, going through techniques in the mind can help tremendously.
Visualization Techniques for Athletes
Deja vu. I was thinking the same a few days back when someone was asking about solo training. Meant to go back and post. I used visualisation training as a gymnast in another life. It is a very valuable tool.
:asian:
Driving in peak hour traffic is a bit like sparring.
I'm lucky, I live in the countryside, the worst we have is sheep and horses.
Well, sure...after all, the pads aren't hitting you back.
My point was that kata, is pre-arranged, just like focus mitt drills. When it comes time for SD or the boxing/sparring match, there's nothing pre-arranged about it.Similar threads
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