Misconceptions about non-contact sparring.

[ballen0351]

No he has never said that.

Sure I did. You asked how I "test" my techniques. I said I don't need to test them. They you said I wont know they work. I said I know they work because Ive done it people that came before me have done it and people Ive trained with have done it. Then you demand proof. I invite you to come look and you cry its too far. Look I don't care if you believe me or not. The techniques you learn are very similar to what I learn so if it works for you then it will for most people. I don't learn or teach complicated multi-move fine motor skilled techniques. The best defense is simple straight forward and easy. I teach if your In a position where you need to defend yourself you need to attack swiftly, forcefully, and with violence of action. I have no need or desire to "test" it. Its been tested over and over again long before I learned it. I drill it over an over and over until it becomes a reflex or trained reaction. I don't care what any one else does. If you have so little faith in your style and teachers you feel the need to go "test" it then so be it.
I also call in to question anyone claiming they train in full contact. I have only ever hit someone "full contact" once. I broke my hand and he's now blind in his left eye had 5 surgeries to rebuild his eye socket and filed a suit against me and the city for 6 million dollars which was dropped after he was sent to prison for 25 years. I hit people from time to time at work but almost never "full contact." So I doubt your going full contact because you would run out of training partners. You may be going hard but your not going full contact.

Im also not saying training extremely hard is bad or wrong Im saying its just not the only way

 

[K-man]

Im also not saying training extremely hard is bad or wrong Im saying its just not the only way

Perhaps if I reposted this bit it might be reinforced! After all, it is exactly what most of us have been saying.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Resistance training and pressure testing is crucial to martial development. Combat sports and many martial systems utilize full contact, submission grappling, technique training, etc. I am a huge proponent of pressure testing your training via full contact sparring, submission grappling, Scenario Training, etc. In my background I did a lot of point sparring as a youngster even competing and being first in my division at a state level as an adult, competed regionally and also placed 5th in the First NBL Super Grands way back in the day. During that same time frame I also kickboxed (the mma of the day) and was an amature champion at one point. I have also used my training in work related situations that involved violence. I said all of the previous to give you an idea of my background. In the system that I teach Instinctive Response Training when we pressure test it is full contact. Whether with padded sticks (where I start everyone), rattan sticks and Filipino Body Armor, rattan sticks and fencing masks or full contact empty hand and submission grappling. (with hand strikes, elbows, knees kicks, etc.) We also pressure test via submission grappling only, Scenario Based Training (where full contact is also involved), etc. The above of course does not mean we do not spend most of our time technique training. Just that when we pressure test it is full contact even if we do not do it every training session.

Pressure testing and resistance training is an important part of any self defence training but that doesn't necessarily require full contact sparring/fighting. Sometimes when we teach self defence techniques against holds, the holder first holds firm and doesn't resist too much until the defender gets the technique right and then they apply the hold with full force while the defender apples the release. Some self defence techniques can not be practiced with full force without risking possibly serious injury to the holder. To people sparring with a similar amount of size and experience going at it full speed, even though they are not constantly hitting each other, certainly aren't being compliant with each other. Grading for black belt requires many rounds of continuous sparring against the black belts and instructors and involves plenty of pressure. The continuous sparring at the grading is either single opponents or 2 on one or both, one after the other with no rest in between and no protective gear of any kind. If the candidate is hit or kicked (even in the groin) the have to keep going unless it puts them out of action, and even then once they recover sufficiently the sparring will often continue. When the adults are grading we will sometimes hit them in a controlled manner on purpose (I once knocked someone out with either a spinning heel kick or hooking kick, I can't remember which, that just clipped him (thankfully I saw it was going to hit him and I slowed the kick down a little bit at the last second). One time one of the people who were going for their black belt got hit a few times, including a kick to the groin, and there were these two adult ladies who were watching who, after seeing this, actually quit training because they though it was too brutal. So just because the sparring is predominantly non-contact it does not mean there is no pressure being applied.

Which brings us back to non-contact training. Even though my background as a young man was extensive in non-contact sparring or point sparring I am not a fan of it. I have seen to many point sparring people who had issues transitioning to full contact. (does not mean that some cannot as some certainly can) The one really good thing from point sparring is the explosiveness that the athletes develop. However, this can be easily developed through various drills.

Now if you point spar I am not saying what you are doing is bad just that in my opinion it is not the best training methodology. However it is a training methodology that can work. Yet I think there are better alternatives in the long run. Nor am I saying that you can't point spar most of the time and go full contact some of the time. (this has worked for quite a few) Each individual will find what works for them and there are some systems that simply do not spar at all and I know several individuals who practice them who have successfully defended themselves in a violent situation. Bottom line there is more than one way to get good in the Martial Sciences. Several paths can lead a practitioner to their desired goal. That is the question what is your goal? If it is mma then you need to train mma to be successful in it. Also to understand that mma is a sport that can be used for self-defense but.... that is not it's goal and self-defense is a different beast than stepping into a cage. If it is for self-defense then that also needs to be your primary focus yet that does not mean you shouldn't have contact in your training and or pressure testing of some sort. Drop bear has found his path in MMA good for him. The rest of us have or are finding our way. Good for us. We can disagree on techniques, sparring, etc. but in the end we are all trying to get better and achieve a goal in the Martial Sciences!

At this point I would like to point out that the system of sparring that is used in the style I study is not point sparring as there is no point to point sparring for self defence (I was wondering how many times I could use the word 'point' in one sentence).

 

[ballen0351]

I think your point about point sparing and non point sparing was on point and I agree with your point and this point in the topic......boom for the win

 

[MJS]

No he has never said that.

He never said what? He has said that his training has served him well on the job. You are the one denying that.

 

[MJS]

Not as the final word. But as a matter of degrees. So I say defence against punch. Worth sort of meh. I show defence against punch slightly better. Show resisted. Better. Show comp better. show fight better. Look for consistency.

Gives an idea of what may work. Short cutting from say to proof with nothing in between does not make sense. And that seems to be what I get.

So I could show that punch defence in a full contact fight between reputable fighters. Show it consistently but for some reason if someone says street. It is not applicable. Doesn't show street. Just says it. Might show a compliant drill and say street. Or tell me that they are a super street kill merchant. And say street.

I get. "A friend of a friend put someone in a lock in the street and the guy tapped. At which point he let go and got totally killed" now this is a common urban myth that goes around in circles untill people believe it. I would ask for proof of something like that.

I get adrenalin in a real fight makes people do ABCD. Sports do not have that. It is only life or death fights that create that response. So you must train whatever or in a fight for our cannot function. Now none of us are adrenaline experts and the worst person to be able to oblectivly talk about mind altering effects of chemicals is the guy experiencing the mind altering effects. So I would ask for proof on that.

I get in a street fight the greatest danger is going to the ground because a crowd of people are waiting to kick the crap out of you. Do we really know how likely that is? I could say anecdotally. But that would be my best guess not an absolute.

I use the term high low percentage to cover the variables. I use what works for me in testing for consistency. I try to apply that and then form the logic as to why something works. This black white works does not work is not my idea of posting opinion.

You have to understand I can't even pop into these gyms and spar. Because they don't. They don't feel the need. So any test seems to have dissapeared.

I think I understand what you're trying to say here, and while I agree with parts, I disagree with others. I'm sorry, but just because someone shows a YT clip of them doing a certain lock or choke, does not mean that it's a high percentage move or that it'll work 100% of the time. Why? Well, it's simple...who is it high percentage for? Just because a Gracie might be able to pull something off, doesn't mean that I or even you, will have the same success. The fact is, is that we all have to develop our own things that work well for us. I don't care if my teacher says that it works or his teachers...if it works for THEM, great! But I want to be sure it will work for ME, and I"M the one doing it.

Dude, the sparring or not sparring pro/con, has been beat like a dead horse ten times over. Every art I've done, does sparring, therefore, I will always lean towards being an advocate of it. Chris Parker, a member of this forum, isn't too fond of it. And that's fine. I've interacted with Chris on the forum and via PM. I don't hate the guy or think he's a joke because his views of sparring differ from mine.

In the end, YT is not a reliable source of what works/doesn't work. If you want to think so, go right ahead. Fact is, many people have come out of confrontations, with success, so apparently they're doing something right.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

So I doubt your going full contact because you would run out of training partners. You may be going hard but your not going full contact.

Im also not saying training extremely hard is bad or wrong Im saying its just not the only way

We are in total agreement that going at it hard is not the only way. I would not advocate anyone to train hard, spar, go full contact all of the time. Actually probably only a very small percentage of the time.

If you are talking about full contact until severe knockout, death or dismemberment then no that is not what we are doing nor do I personally know anyone training that way. I would also mention that there is a big difference between any training and fighting for your life. There is no way to 100% accurately replicate the later. I cannot speak for others but in IRT when I say we pressure test and that sparring is full contact it actually is in that we are not pulling, stopping short with any blows. Whether it is with padded sticks, rattan, empty hand, etc. We are making contact to in effect stop the other person during that sparring session if we can but at least to hit them as hard as we can. We always have a person monitoring and stopping it if one person needs to stop or gets compromised and they break the match whenever they feel it is right or to put other practitioners out there. That is one safety net that is very important. We are also not trying to severely injure the other person so when they are compromised ie. injured, flash knockout, etc. we are backing off or an instructor is stopping it no different than if we are submission grappling and someone taps. We might also only be working on certain things ie. striking the hands only or striking period and not grappling. We always where full face headgear to protect the nose and give some degree of safety plus a few other pads depending on what type of sparring we are doing. The headgear and nose protection is really important as trust me broken noses will happen otherwise. (I have extensive experience in this area both in the giving and receiving) In regards to injuries with the headgear on there are rarely any injuries. The worst ding we had recently in Las Vegas was when a practitioner took a rattan stick strike right on his shin and another one that was a flash knockout and he recovered so quickly we did not even know it. The shin swelled up big time but he was okay otherwise and limped around for a couple of weeks. We also do not spar all the time and this is really important. If you did it every class, every day you would as you mentioned quickly have a lot of injuries and have a lack of training partners. You can padded stick spar regularly, submission grapple regularly but full contact rattan stick with fencing masks or empty hand sparring needs to happen once in awhile and not all the time. I also never throw anyone right into full contact rattan sparring, full contact empty hand sparring or submission grappling until they have really good skills. No one get's thrown to the wolves. Depending on the person that could be six months to a year and a half or more. Age also comes into effect as well as experience. Some times there are diminishing returns at a certain point especially with age. Someone's profession could interfere as well. I had a surgeon training with us and his livelihood is his hands so we worked around that. I believe in variety and balance in training plus finding the right balance for every unique individual.

Now here are a couple of IRT Full Contact Filipino Body Armor Sparring video clips: Note these are from an old analog camera and not HD!

Here is some padded stick sparring and empty hand sparring at the end:

Some submission grappling: Note these two know each others game really well so there is no submission until right at the end just a lot of movement. I would also note that together these two have 20 mma match wins and one of them was undefeated and stepped into the ring a few times just to test himself and the other became an amature Michigan champioin in mma.

Here is some IRT Marking Knife training for variety:

Here is a survive the shank drill which by just watching it you should realize you do not want to go against a person with a knife. (3 IRT guys and 1 TKD guy at an Intensive)

In all of these videos when guy's are trying to strike they are actually trying to strike and not trying to pull up short of striking ie. non contact. There is no pulling anything unless someone is injured.

If you are interested in more IRT videos you will find them here:
IRTYoutube




Now if we talk specifically about injuries the worst injuries I have seen in the last fifteen years came during scenario training. The potential for a blind side or strange angles is some thing you have to watch out for during scenario training and caution practitioners during Pre-Scenario work up. After all at the end of the day people want to go home not injured! That does not mean that scenario training is bad just that you need to make sure everyone is on the same page with what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You can also edit or keep doing retakes until you get what you want to see

Plus people do not generally put their failures on YouTube.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Plus people do not generally put their failures on YouTube.

Amused bystanders often do, however.

 

[K-man]

Plus people do not generally put their failures on YouTube.

Mmm! Not quite sure about that ... unless of course they don't recognise their failures as failures, and that is a real concern.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Plus people do not generally put their failures on YouTube.

They are not always failures.

Have a look who put this video out.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XdyDS4UICZ4

 

[RTKDCMB]

They are not always failures.

Have a look who put this video out.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XdyDS4UICZ4

I see your point but it was not quite what I was getting at. I was actually referring to when someone wants to prove their martial art's techniques or philosophies works in the 'street' then they will only show videos of them being successful and not when it isn't. Or they will only show videos of an art they are trying to discredit being unsuccessful, or poorly skilled/inexperienced practitioners of that art against high level practitioners in theirs.

 

[drop bear]

I see your point but it was not quite what I was getting at. I was actually referring to when someone wants to prove their martial art's techniques or philosophies works in the 'street' then they will only show videos of them being successful and not when it isn't. Or they will only show videos of an art they are trying to discredit being unsuccessful, or poorly skilled/inexperienced practitioners of that art against high level practitioners in theirs.

But both sides have access to the internet.

Supporting an argument is not essentially flawed because you are supporting one side.

 

[RTKDCMB]

But both sides have access to the internet.

Yes but usually only one side has an agenda.

Supporting an argument is not essentially flawed because you are supporting one side.

If you mean not necessarily flawed, then we are in agreement.