"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with you?

Hmm...with the question mark, I can't decide whether to like or dislike...

 

[drop bear]

Well, since you're on your feet, you can bash an opening and then practice your Run-Fu. That's at least a little more difficult if you're on the ground.

So it is BJJ in a running race vs kung fu. Well that is an interesting style vs style.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So it is BJJ in a running race vs kung fu. Well that is an interesting style vs style.

Well, I wasn't actually thinking style vs style. Only that it's easier to take off running from an upright position than from a prone.
Unless there's a BJJ hold that puts you in a position like the starters blocks for a sprint?

 

[drop bear]

Well, I wasn't actually thinking style vs style. Only that it's easier to take off running from an upright position than from a prone.
Unless there's a BJJ hold that puts you in a position like the starters blocks for a sprint?

Turtle.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Turtle.

Aren't you kind of tangled up with another person at that point, though? Might make launching a little slower than ideal...

 

[drop bear]

Aren't you kind of tangled up with another person at that point, though? Might make launching a little slower than ideal...

 

[Steve]

Poor baby? WTF? Is that even called for? Very mature reply. I guess you missed the sticky that the moderators put up.

Dude, you're stuck in victim mode. Whining and wringing your hands about how everyone is so mean to you. Snap out of it. You're seeing what you want to see, and when someone points it out to you, you whine and cry even more.

yes. It was called for. I'm shocked you don't hear it from someone every day, if that's how you go through life.

 

[Steve]

Well, that depends on where you are in the escalation. I've done it. Granted, my would-be assailants were hardly Jason Bourne, but there I was, on a dark and lonely street in a seedy side of town, the wind was howling and a distant siren cut the night air like a hot .45 slug through a bowl of my Aunt Ruby's marshmallow and lime jell-o fruit salad. I was winding up a long day at work, just thinking about that hot meal and a beer waiting for me at home and how in the hell was I gonna make next month's rent?? and then it happened. How they got there and from where they sprang I will never know, and that bothers me to this very day, sir, the realization that my placid daydreaming, or, twilight dreaming as it more accurately stands, lead me headlong into dangers of a kind hardly dreamt of! But as I say, there I was, bad guys to the left of me...bad guys to the right of me...bad guys in front of me...threats and demands for a charity handout offending my sensibilities! And I knew right then and there sir, that my very metal was to be tested to its utmost limits! And I, sir, am no man to shrink from a challenge or a threat to my very being, no sir, not I! And I steeled myself for the encounter that was sure to come, knowing that whatever the outcome, whatever they might wring from my dying grasp of my goods and chattels, that I would visit any hurt or offense to my person back upon their heads tenfold!!!

Well sir, the die was cast at that moment and what was to come was fate and unstoppable. For the one of my many assailants, he reached forth and positioned his very body in such a dastardly way as to hinder my own advance! And he did give me a push, a shove upon my own self, into an obstruction! Well, I was not to stand for it, let me tell you sir, no I would not. Rather, I pressed myself into an opening, a gap between my very assailants, and I did bolt for life and limb! I dashed myself down the road and my devious and dastardly assailants gave chase. I heard the one shout, "get the bag!" as I had slung about my shoulders a satchel known in the common parlance as a "duffle" bag. And in my own mind my internal voice screamed, "oh thou shalt not!!!!!!" For within that satchel there lay one of the very few treasures that I owned to my very name, one of few luxuries that my wretched condition of employment allowed me in my time of dispair. That satchel held a Walkman, purchased with hard-earned currency that very afternoon! And I would not part with it for the cost of my soul!

Well I lead those fellows a merry chase and they did drop away after some time. I feel some satisfaction in the thought that they were astounded that this fellow they chose to exercise their ruffianism upon, this man in a suit and tie, did outrun them in both speed and in distance, their shouts and howls of frustration fading in the distance as I put mileage between us. For my conditioning was like that of the pronghorn of the plains!

And I did make it to safety, I will have you know, and am here to relate this tale of suspense and horror to you today, for your education and satisfaction.

I love it. And I'm glad you still have the Walkman. Was it one of the big, cassette tape ones?

And just to be clear, which martial art helped you? Being serious, I'd like to see real data on crimes, or attempted crimes, whether the person trained something they believe helped them in the situation (whether martial arts, parkour, crossfit or whatever) and if so, what. My theory is that we would learn that training in any martial art, whether BJJ, tkd or whatever, has minimal real effect.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So it is BJJ in a running race vs kung fu. Well that is an interesting style vs style.

On the ground, I don't think I can move this fast as this guy did.

 

[KangTsai]

I've long thought Bruce Lee's comments about "no style" were overly philosophical to attempt to train from as a beginner. They are an end point - actually, a fairly common end point. Many long-term (let's say 20+ years) students of the arts I know have reached a point where, when attending a seminar, they look at each new technique, strategy, and principle they are taught and examine it for how it will work for them in regards to everything else they know. Those who do this become more dangerous to their training partners who don't, because they will find a version of a technique that fits nicely into their main art, but isn't really known there, and bring it back in.

In the end, I think Lee's concept - at it's highest level - is not that uncommon. (Some of the principles within it might be - I'd need to go back and re-read his writings to think about that, and I'm sure there's stuff that was passed along that didn't make it into the books.) Basically, as I read it, he says that techniques aren't the key, principles are the key. So, though someone may study his techniques in JKD, they shouldn't be leashed to those in the long term. I don't think it's a viable approach for beginners - they need specific techniques to learn from and grow upon until they have the understanding to bridge principles beyond techniques. That's where the technical JKD has its place.

Sometimes I think most instructors (maybe most students - I just don't know many long-term students who don't teach) eventually run into a problem. They are focusing themselves in one direction for learning, and must focus their teaching in another direction, because their students simply aren't at their level...unless they move to only teaching advanced students, where the gap isn't as large. When someone copies their thoughts at that stage - whether from writings, or by repeating their teaching methods (especially if it's how they taught to advanced classes), they may be teaching beyond the beginner's level from the start.

Back to your point (which I intended to stay on, really!). There's the other side of the aisle: long-term students of an art who work to keep an art pure. If you are trying to preserve some historical point in time (like maintaining some settler's village from the 16th century in America), then that's fine. But that's not the same IMO as continuing to practice it as a functional art. Those folks don't want to add or remove anything, which usually starts from the assumption that the art is wholly perfect, and that changing, adding, or removing will break it. That attitude assumes that some progenitor was an infallible genius, who created a perfect system. Such does not exist, IMO. If said progenitor did well, then they created a whole art that worked well for the time and circumstances in which they found themselves. That art should continue to evolve as the world around it does. That doesn't mean just anything can be brought into an art. As I said (I think) before, an art is a collection of principles, and needs some unifying bridges that let you move between parts of the art. Anything new that comes into the art must fit comfortably. So, for instance, there are strikes from Jow Ga, White Crane, and Long Fist traditions that simply don't look like good fits for NGA, so to me they are not NGA. There are strikes in Goju-ryu, Wing Chun, and Kali that do look like good fits for NGA, so to me they are NGA to anyone in NGA who knows how to use those strikes. The style is simply the set of principles and approaches that collects appropriate techniques and movements under itself.

(That's more writing than I'd planned to do. Whew!)

But the thing is, distance is such a mundane and simple concept that 'purity' of a martial art is not at stake here. It's not do a 'long ________ ,' it's just do a '_______' from arms length.

 

[yak sao]

Well, that depends on where you are in the escalation. I've done it. Granted, my would-be assailants were hardly Jason Bourne, but there I was, on a dark and lonely street in a seedy side of town, the wind was howling and a distant siren cut the night air like a hot .45 slug through a bowl of my Aunt Ruby's marshmallow and lime jell-o fruit salad. I was winding up a long day at work, just thinking about that hot meal and a beer waiting for me at home and how in the hell was I gonna make next month's rent?? and then it happened. How they got there and from where they sprang I will never know, and that bothers me to this very day, sir, the realization that my placid daydreaming, or, twilight dreaming as it more accurately stands, lead me headlong into dangers of a kind hardly dreamt of! But as I say, there I was, bad guys to the left of me...bad guys to the right of me...bad guys in front of me...threats and demands for a charity handout offending my sensibilities! And I knew right then and there sir, that my very metal was to be tested to its utmost limits! And I, sir, am no man to shrink from a challenge or a threat to my very being, no sir, not I! And I steeled myself for the encounter that was sure to come, knowing that whatever the outcome, whatever they might wring from my dying grasp of my goods and chattels, that I would visit any hurt or offense to my person back upon their heads tenfold!!!

Well sir, the die was cast at that moment and what was to come was fate and unstoppable. For the one of my many assailants, he reached forth and positioned his very body in such a dastardly way as to hinder my own advance! And he did give me a push, a shove upon my own self, into an obstruction! Well, I was not to stand for it, let me tell you sir, no I would not. Rather, I pressed myself into an opening, a gap between my very assailants, and I did bolt for life and limb! I dashed myself down the road and my devious and dastardly assailants gave chase. I heard the one shout, "get the bag!" as I had slung about my shoulders a satchel known in the common parlance as a "duffle" bag. And in my own mind my internal voice screamed, "oh thou shalt not!!!!!!" For within that satchel there lay one of the very few treasures that I owned to my very name, one of few luxuries that my wretched condition of employment allowed me in my time of dispair. That satchel held a Walkman, purchased with hard-earned currency that very afternoon! And I would not part with it for the cost of my soul!

Well I lead those fellows a merry chase and they did drop away after some time. I feel some satisfaction in the thought that they were astounded that this fellow they chose to exercise their ruffianism upon, this man in a suit and tie, did outrun them in both speed and in distance, their shouts and howls of frustration fading in the distance as I put mileage between us. For my conditioning was like that of the pronghorn of the plains!

And I did make it to safety, I will have you know, and am here to relate this tale of suspense and horror to you today, for your education and satisfaction.

Now that is funny.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Dude, you're stuck in victim mode. Whining and wringing your hands about how everyone is so mean to you. Snap out of it. You're seeing what you want to see, and when someone points it out to you, you whine and cry even more.

yes. It was called for. I'm shocked you don't hear it from someone every day, if that's how you go through life.

A bit harsh, Steve.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I love it. And I'm glad you still have the Walkman. Was it one of the big, cassette tape ones?

And just to be clear, which martial art helped you? Being serious, I'd like to see real data on crimes, or attempted crimes, whether the person trained something they believe helped them in the situation (whether martial arts, parkour, crossfit or whatever) and if so, what. My theory is that we would learn that training in any martial art, whether BJJ, tkd or whatever, has minimal real effect.

This is probably another of those circumstances where good statistics simply aren't going to be available. Given the relatively small number of multiple-attacker incidents, the relatively small number of martial artists (in the population), and the way such things are (and are not) reported, the best we can probably do is draw reasonable conclusions.

The primary reason for training against multiple attackers (at least in NGA) is to learn to navigate through and around them. If there are only 2 (as if that's an "only"), then a fighter may have a chance to defeat both if he/she outclasses each one individually or just gets lucky and finishes the first one very fast. Beyond that, if running is an option, then it's the best option. Since the defender will be fueled by the fear of death, they will probably have a larger adrenaline surge than the pursuers, which will be enough if he/she is reasonably fit, reasonably fast, and has somewhere to run to. If that "somewhere to run to" isn't an option, then fighting may be all that is left.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But the thing is, distance is such a mundane and simple concept that 'purity' of a martial art is not at stake here. It's not do a 'long ________ ,' it's just do a '_______' from arms length.

I agree that it's not a question of purity. However, there are many _____ that don't belong at arm's length. An elbow blow can't happen at arm's length, nor can an Elbow Chop (mid-range NGA technique), nor a Slap to the side of the Head (close range NGA technique). You have to enter or draw your opponent in for each of those to be executed. To me, that entering/drawing movement is separate from the technique itself, and is part of controlling the distance.

If an art's principles are built around power generation at square (this is a hypothetical art, though it might apply to some like Wing Chun...don't know), then strikes much beyond square would violate the principles of the art. If the power generation is entirely around square, extending the shoulder forward to gain reach (in any method) will destroy that power generation base and render a nearly useless strike. It's then time to examine whether that's a big enough hole that the art needs a change in principles. If not, then you leave it, and those folks who want those longer punches can learn them elsewhere. If the hole is too important, then you start adjusting the principles of the art to make room for some appropriate long-reach strikes.

 

[Flying Crane]

I love it. And I'm glad you still have the Walkman. Was it one of the big, cassette tape ones?

And just to be clear, which martial art helped you? Being serious, I'd like to see real data on crimes, or attempted crimes, whether the person trained something they believe helped them in the situation (whether martial arts, parkour, crossfit or whatever) and if so, what. My theory is that we would learn that training in any martial art, whether BJJ, tkd or whatever, has minimal real effect.

Ah the Walkman! Player of cassette tapes! Bringer of tunes to lighten the soul! I have such fond memories of that artifact from a bygone era. That small bit of technology with which I was able to break the tedium of my day, that I purchased with the pennies and sheckels I managed to scrape together...that formidable tool with which I was able to stave off the creeping madness that threatened to overtake my existence! Well it did serve me well but I am afraid it did die a noble death after a distinguished career. It lays now at the bottom of a trash heap in some forgotten corner of some forgotten landfill.

My Nike Jitsu did show its prowess that fateful night, and opened the way for my newly-purchased Walkman, that faithful companion, to serve me so well in the days and months and years to come.

 

[Steve]

A bit harsh, Steve.

But true. Who can take all the whining?

 

[Steve]

This is probably another of those circumstances where good statistics simply aren't going to be available. Given the relatively small number of multiple-attacker incidents, the relatively small number of martial artists (in the population), and the way such things are (and are not) reported, the best we can probably do is draw reasonable conclusions.

The primary reason for training against multiple attackers (at least in NGA) is to learn to navigate through and around them. If there are only 2 (as if that's an "only"), then a fighter may have a chance to defeat both if he/she outclasses each one individually or just gets lucky and finishes the first one very fast. Beyond that, if running is an option, then it's the best option. Since the defender will be fueled by the fear of death, they will probably have a larger adrenaline surge than the pursuers, which will be enough if he/she is reasonably fit, reasonably fast, and has somewhere to run to. If that "somewhere to run to" isn't an option, then fighting may be all that is left.

Would sure put a lot of myth to bed if we could get some actual information, instead of conjecture.

 

[drop bear]

Would sure put a lot of myth to bed if we could get some actual information, instead of conjecture.

I have legitimately used multiple attackers against a lot of guys.
That is one of the major dynamics that makes bouncing work.

Otherwise you could test it. You just spar a heap of guys. Which i have also done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Would sure put a lot of myth to bed if we could get some actual information, instead of conjecture.

It would, but we'll probably have to settle for case studies, given the low population for statistical purposes.

 

[Transk53]

It would, but we'll probably have to settle for case studies, given the low population for statistical purposes.

Steve likes to be a bit grouchy. Doubt any answer would be sufficient