Modern Arnis Situation/Succession - Was "A question that needs to be answered"

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Mao,
Isn't syntax the tax you pay for all your sins?:rofl:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ow Ow Ow Ow

bad jokes...bad jokes....

 

[Mao]

Haa......yeehaa:cheers:

 

[DPRESAS]

Reply to "Whoop" !

Thank you for your communication and to your interest in the Philippine Martial Art particularly Modern Arnis, the art developed by our Father Professor Remy Amador Presas.

In reference to your questions about MARPIO...please refer to
our website and I assure you it will be a revelation to EVERYONE !

As to Ms. Lori Harwood's participation in MARPIO...HER ONLY PARTICIPATION IN MARPIO IS THAT......SHE DONATED I REPEAT
DONATED HER WEBSITE TO MARPIO OUT OF RESPECT TO THE FAMILY !....AND UNDERSTANDING FULLY THE CUSTOMS,CULTURE ,AND TRADITION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES.

With regards to the Senior students resume, background, and training ......again...WE INVITE EVERYONE TO AGAIN CHECK THE WEBSITE OF MARPIO AND YOU WILL FIND ALL OF THE INFORMATION REGARDING THE SENIOR CONSULTANTS.....

THE PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ART ( AS EVERY KNOWLEDGEABLE KALI ESKRIMA ARNIS AFFICIONMADO WILL AGREE TO ) HAS SO MANY VARIED STYLES AND TECHNIQUES .....AND THIS IS THE VERY REASON WHY OUR FATHER CALLED HIS ART ...MODERN ARNIS..THE ART WITHIN YOUR ART..IT HAS SO MANY ENDLESS COMBINATIONS OF ALL THE FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS AND TAPI-TAPI IS ONLY ONE ASPECT AND TECHNIQUE OUT OF THE NUMEROUS COMBINATIONS !

IN CONCLUSION...THE FAMILY AGAIN WOULD LIKE TO EMPHASIZE
THAT MARPIO WAS ORGANIZED NOT TO COUNTER ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION OR FEDERATION OF MODERN ARNIS BUT RATHER
TO ASSIST IN WHATEVER WAY IN COORDINATING AND UNITING EVERY PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ART PRACTITIONER ( NOT ONLY MODERN ARNIS )...AND TO FOLLOW THRU WITH THE LEGACY ACCORDING TO PHILIPPINE CUSTOMS , TRADITIONS, AND CULTURE THAT...THE FAMILY ( ESPECIALLY THE BLOODLINE )
ARE THE TRUE HEIRS TO FOLLOW THRU WITH THE LEGACY OF OUR FATHER PROFESSOR REMY AMADOR PRESAS

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUCCESORS...AND HEIRS..
THE FAMILY ARE THE HEIRS..AND THEY RESPECT THEIR LATE FATHER'S APPOINTMENT OF HIS SUCCESORS...LIKEWISE WE
WOULD ALSO LIKE TO REQUEST THAT EVERYONE RESPECT THE PHILIPPINE CULTURE, CUSTOM, AND TRADITION,..THAT THE FAMILY ARE THE TRUE HEIRS TO CONTINUE THE LEGACY !

 

[Sir_Yantok]

I think you guys are giving way too much credit to Hartman (Mr. 6th degree black belt in arnis) So what if he is the highest ranked in Modern Arnis? Let me rephrase that. So what if he is the highest ranked in Modern Arnis in the "US"? We should all consider where the art came from. From a ruthless bloodthirsty warrior society in which your skills are tested through where life and death are to be considered. Now from my perspective, America today isn't anything like that, thankfully. Hardly anyone ever issues challenge matches, except some of the Filipinos. Tournament condition comes nowhere near a mortal challenge match. Now Im not saying everyone should issue challenge matches here and there, because those are also full of pride and ego. However I do notice that people tend to focus more on the aesthetic part of the art, I mean, how can you ever use "Tapi-Tapi" in a real-life street fighting condition where your opponent wont honorably fight you.
Most often, you can't. One should consider that the aim of Modern Arnis, like any other martial art, is to provide knowledge for those unable to defend themselves, to be able to defend themselves. Tapi tapi is just basically a set of parrying coordinated techniques.

To Hartman, the fact that the Modern Arnis masters of the Philippines "supposedly" would have knowledge of the original art, does't mean it is inferior (Im sorry to say but that is what you are trying to make it sound). Sorry to tell you but, YES there are people of HIGHER rank than you in Modern Arnis, and we all know its not one of these MOTT and IMAF practitioners. Im sorry to say it too but I bet they can kick your posterior, in teaching and combat. But that doesn't mean your not one of the greatest arnisadors IN AMERICA, I think youre better than Jeff Delaney. A question though, have you ever been to the Philippines? Has anybody ever challenged your knowledge through full contact combat? I'd really like to know.

Now about evolution, it doesnt mean that the art has evolved through GM Presas and his recent students that it would be a better version than the original art. I mean just look at what they are serving, Tapi Tapi for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Tapi Tapi is a wonderful set of techniques to learn, but it alone aint just gonna cut it on a street brawl. C'mon now Timmy, you complain more than anyone that GM Presas hands out belts like lolipops, why should you even give any credit as to what the Art has turned to then? Dont sell yourself too high Timmy, and dont sell the original style too short too. Its all relative, Presas Family, MOTT, WMAA, IMAF, The Art of tapi-tapi, the art of taking my hard-earned money, whatever... etc. etc. etc....

WHAT?????

 

[Bob Hubbard]

DPresas:

Regarding your refering everyone to the modernarnis.com website - The website does not have any content we can see other than the letter which was sent out by Ms. Harwood. When will that be updated to reflect the information you refer to?

Also in regards to modernarnis.com - the site is owned by Ms. Harwood. She can do whatever she wishes with the site at any time. If she decides to take it down, she can. And you can not stop her any more than the IMAF could stop her from evicting them from it. For your own protection, have it transfered into your organizations name. Just a friendly suggestion. Respect for family history, etc has nothing to do with it. Just an understanding of the way domain issues are resolved.

Also, this quote from there "We welcome you to join this top-notch, no politics organization. Out of gratitude for your faithfulness to the late GM Remy Amador Presas, all IMAF members will receive a one-year free membership in MARPPIO. Information will be posted on the website soon." can be taken in a few ways. 1- is as a snub to the WMAA people. 2- that MARPPIO is the replacement organization to the IMAF. Think about it. You have -their- web site, and are offering a -free- membership to -only- IMAF members. This implies that MARPPIO is the successor organization to the IMAF.

To both DPresas and Sir Yantok - Who are these higher ranked Arnis black belts? I know they are out there. But I don't know who they are. In regards to Modern Arnis, I see 3 names everywhere. GM Remy A Presas, Tim Hartman and Jeff Delany. Can y'all point me at some 3rd party info on these folks? (magazine articles or books maybe? Danke )


Board usage (and this goes for everyone) Please don't use all caps. It is considered shouting. If you are trying to accent a point, try changing the color(unless you did intend to represent shouting, which is ok) (No offence folks, but I like to think we're better than AOL)
Its too early in the morning for me to write more.

 

[Sir_Yantok]

I have no affiliation whatever with DPresas, and I mean no disrespect to you or anyone, but being recently in the Philippines, I had the chance to meet some of them in a tournament. I think at least one of them was included in the original Modern Arnis book. Out of respect to DPresas, I'd prefer that he mention them himself, or most probably he would sometime later, perhaps in their website. Cmon now, how can you even put Jeff Delaney in the likes of GM Presas, that's not right. I'd hate to say this but it seems that most exponents of Modern Arnis are vaguely aware of fully qualified intructors in the Philippines, I mean, that is where the art was created. My suggestion, try visiting the Phils to learn Arnis, then use all that knowledge against the Abusayyaf.

:flame: :flame:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Sir Yantok,:cuss:
Let's get something straight! My name is Datu Hartman, Mr Hartman, Guro Hartman, Renegade, Yo Dirt Bag or Tim. Only three people call me Timmy!
1. Remy Sr.
2. My Grandfather
3. Dr. Gyi

This is a friendly warning, you won't like the pissy one. I must go off to my school but I will be back!
:soapbox: :samurai: :uzi: :flame: :armed:

P.S. Every time I told Remy I wanted to go to the Phillipines to go train and learn more about the culture he would tell me that I could learn about the culture, but the good FMAers already move to the states! Food for thought.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Sir Yantok,
Wasn't putting JD in the same class as the GM, just saying his name has high visibility.

Speaking of Mr. Delany...he was sent a personal invitation recently to join this forum. To my knowledge, neither he nor any other member of the IMAF have to date.

I've heard that alot of the Fillipino MA students are intense. (not meant in a bad way). If I had the time to take a few months off from work, I would probably do that. Right now, not enough free time for me to do that.

Course, no offence to the FMA/MA crowd, but if I had 6 months training time, I'd go learn Kenjitsu...what can I say, I like swords.


offtopic
Renegade likes the smilies...is it just me or does the flame thrower one's flame imply an extended arm with 1 finger up?
/off topic

 

[Cthulhu]

I'd like to back Renegade's statement that most of the good FMAers are in the U.S. Let me rephrase that by saying most of the well known FMAers moved to the U.S., and this includes, but is not limited to:

Jack Santos
Juan Lacoste
Angel Cabales
Floro Villabre

etc, etc, etc.

As far as their being people with rank higher than Mr. Hartman, he himself did indicate that though there may be people holding higher rank in Modern Arnis, they are apparently not active.

Cthulhu
stickin' his nose where it don't belong

 

[Bob Hubbard]

"Active" may be a key word here.

How active were these individuals? I mean, I think theres a difference between earning a blackbelt and not really keeping up to date verses activly training for a decade or 4.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Something else just occured to me....has probably been mentioned, but i missed it....

and its back to the original question that started this thread...

How can Jeff Delany call himself "Grandmaster when a GM is usually 10th degree and he is not?

Also, I thought his title was"CO-grandmaster" with Dr. Schea (spelling maybe wrong here).

What happened to the "CO" part, and wheres the other "CO-GM"?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just an FYI for everyone -
I closed the other 2 threads on this forum discussing the topic of Modern Arnis Succession, etc. Please confine the talk of the "Civil War" to this thread.

This way, we can return the rest of the MA forum to talk of techniques, tours, etc.

Thank you.

Kaith.
:asian:

 

[IFAJKD]

I think any serious FMA believes that all the great Instructors came to the US. There have been some who have returned but they still came back here. You don't have to go to tibet to learn to master meditation. This is not obviously the case for just FMA. The Gracies, as well as others are here too. The economy can support them or they have left for a better life or they are political refugees. I think it needs to be said that there are only a handfull of people responsible for us being able to train FMA in the first place. Dan Inosanto being one of them. FMA could never be as lost as it was but if we don't focus on what matters then many aspects could certainly be lost again. We again must thank others for their contribution and move on. Renegades statements and background allow others to do just that. some will listen others will not. oh well

 

[GouRonin]

All I can go on is that Hartman has been the only Modern Arnis guy I have ever been with in a stripper bar owned by hell's angels when the **** is by the fan.

I can tell you this. I wasn't worried about that section of my back that he had covered.

That's what I have to go on. If Delany, or the MOTT's or the IMAF or anyone else wants to go with me to a stripper bar please contact me. I will buy the first round.
:cheers:

 

[Brian Johns]

<<<<Something else just occured to me....has probably been mentioned, but i missed it....
and its back to the original question that started this thread...
How can Jeff Delany call himself "Grandmaster when a GM is usually 10th degree and he is not?
Also, I thought his title was"CO-grandmaster" with Dr. Schea (spelling maybe wrong here).
What happened to the "CO" part, and wheres the other "CO-GM"?>>>>>

Here's what I know:

The public story, at least through the press release on the IMAF shortly after the Professor retired from teaching, was that Dr. Schea and Jeff Delaney were appointed as Co Grandmasters and Co- Successors for the art of Modern Arnis. The IMAF web page reflected this for several months. In recent months, it appears that Delaney has unilaterally begun calling himself the Grandmaster and without any reference to Dr. Schea. See Black Belt Magazine advertisements and the IMAF web page. Unfortunately, Delaney appears to have made these moves even while Remy was still alive. Dr. Schea, being an Indonesian Chinese and a traditional guy (from what I understand) chose not to do anything out of respect for Prof Presas while he was still alive.

Behind the scenes, I understand there's another side to the "Co grandmaster" and "co successor" story. I've heard something which could potentially be explosive. However, I think that it would entirely inappropriate to state what I've heard as I feel that this story is unverifiable. I don't even know if it's true.

However, from what I understand, changes are in the making and will be announced over the next weekend with respect to the other 6 MOTTS and that they may be announced by Dr. Schea. To be frank, I don't have any specifics. However, the changes might be deduced just from looking at Delaney's web page. He has named several people to the IMAF Board of Directors. He has named himself Chairman of the IMAF, Michael Bates as the Executive Director, Lisa McManus as the Membership Director, Edgar Cordova as the Treasurer and Jamil Tarkhani (of Germany) as the International Director. The Curriculum Director is blank. Neither Dr. Schea nor the rest of the MOTTS are included in this Board. From this, one can deduce that a break has occurred between Delaney and the rest of the MOTTs. I think that we will hear something this weekend which will confirm this. The specifics ? I don't know. The general outline is pretty obvious.

For whatever it's worth, I've worked with Dr. Schea and he has A LOT more to offer than Delaney has. Randi has an extensive martial arts background and has been in Modern Arnis for many years.

As to how one can be a 5th degree and a Grandmaster, that question is better answered by Delaney himself. I can't see how one can reconcile being a 5th degree and a Grandmaster at the same time. I just can't. I cannot answer that question. That is the $64,000 question.

Woo !!!:shrug:

 

[Brian Johns]

I ain't going into no stripper bar to watch Hartman....... but the major gyrating babes in there !!:rofl:

 

[bloodwood]

gou got it right. what it all boils down to is, if you had to go into battle who would you take with you!!!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Very interesting...The next few weeks are looking to be revolutionary, me thinks...

We've heard for Tim Hartman...We've heard from the Presas family....still no identifiable IMAF or MOTT presence here....and the IMAF -was- sent an invite..

I feel snubbed. :shrug:


possible conversation at a future event....

Student - "Grandmaster, can you help me? I'm struggling with this technique, Trapping Hands. Can you help me?"

Der Wunder GM - "Trapping hands? Whats that?"

Student - "Its, umm, a white belt technique. You don't know it?"

:rofl: :rofl:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
How can Jeff Delany call himself "Grandmaster when a GM is usually 10th degree and he is not?

There's an interesting precedent in traditional Japanese systems, where a head of a system might die when his child and heir was still a low-ranking instructor. (Many of these systems don't use belt rankings but rather a series of licenses, but the idea applies to either situation.) The child is indeed the new head of the system in terms of running the organization, setting the direction, and so on, but continues to work his way up to the highest rank by testing under the highest ranking instructors. It happens all the time; I expected it to happen with Small-Circle Ju-Jitsu but Prof. Jay took another approach. So, I accept that Mr. Delaney is the head of Modern Arnis along with Dr. Schea, though that co-headship appears likely to change soon. This is not inconsistent with his rank. While I also tend to equate "Grandmaster" with "Head of System," that is not the only way that it is used, and Prof. Presas did use this term to describe Mr. Delaney and Dr. Schea.

Of course, Remy Presas himself always preferred to be addressed and described as Professor, not Grandmaster.

Similarly, if one wants to start one's own art then traditionally one would get the endorsement of four (or so) other respected heads of systems. These are typically 10th degree black belts if belt rankings are used, but again headship of the system is separate from belt ranking in general--"above and beyond rank," one might say. I doubt one would use a head of system who was not of appropriately high rank of course.

On a slightly different note I'd like to point out that there are precedents for one art having different organizations with different heads. One example is Goju-Ryu, divided into Shobukan, Shoreikan, etc. See for example:
http://gojuryu.net/Index/lineage.html
As I look at the IMAF, MARPPIO, the other break-away groups, and the prospect of more to come as the situation within the IMAF is resolved, I think of this. Is there anything so wrong with it? I'd prefer things otherwise but several groups carrying on their vision of Prof. Presas' art, as I assume will happen with Small-Circle Ju-Jitsu and as happened with Kanryo Higaonna's and Chojun Miyagi's Goju-Ryu.

One other side note: I'd like to correct a statement made by Mr. Hartman. Without meaning to put myself in the august company of the other gentleman whom he cited, it is nonetheless the case that I also call him "Timmy".