McDojo Pt. 2 -- Follow up Thoughts

[Rumy73]

What you're talking about sounds like fraud. Not all McDojos are owned by con artists, although some undoubtedly are.

I am going to risk speaking out of turn, so I'll gladly accept correction from those who know. But I've heard a lot of criticism of TKD schools who train Olympic style competitors. Let's just presume that it's ALL point sparring and Olympic style sparring and that they never, never, ever focus on Self Defense. If the competitors are earning rank in a way that is consistent within the style AND they are learning skills which allow them to be competitive with students from other schools AND they are happy AND their parents are happy AND the school owner is making a decent living, who gives a damn whether it meets someone else's arbitrary standards for what a martial art should be? (sorry for the run on sentence. )

So, that being said, the quality of the instruction and the qualifications of the instructor are independent of the business model.

To give an example, I know of some BJJ schools that are wildly successful and operate using what I would consider McDojo style business practices. I don't have any problems with it, and I wouldn't have any reservations at all recommending the instructors or the schools to a friend interested in BJJ. The owners are very good technicians and excellent coaches. They want to make a living doing what they love. More power to them, I say.

Conversely, I know a guy who isn't a McDojo, but who basically bought a black belt from a legit BJJ black belt. He runs a moderately successful school financially, but I'd never recommend him, because I question his integrity and also have reservations about the quality of his instruction.

Your comments are reasonable. If a school omits self defense and pushes competition, there is nothing wrong with it. They should not, however, tout themselves as a teacher of SD. Competition training is hard work!

 

[Steve]

Your comments are reasonable. If a school omits self defense and pushes competition, there is nothing wrong with it. They should not, however, tout themselves as a teacher of SD. Competition training is hard work!

Agreed. To misrepresent oneself could be fraud.

And, as an aside, this is one of my biggest beefs with schools who focus on training children. They often allege to be teaching self defense, when in reality, they are not.

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[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Agreed. To misrepresent oneself could be fraud.

And, as an aside, this is one of my biggest beefs with schools who focus on training children. They often allege to be teaching self defense, when in reality, they are not.

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Some of them teach mental self defense/how to respond o bullies, how to control anger, etc. while not teaching more than the basics. I'm not qualified (yet, give me a few years and a college degree and i will be)to say if their mental aspects are correct, but if they are, I see no problem with them passing it off as self defense.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What you're talking about sounds like fraud. Not all McDojos are owned by con artists, although some undoubtedly are.

I am going to risk speaking out of turn, so I'll gladly accept correction from those who know. But I've heard a lot of criticism of TKD schools who train Olympic style competitors. Let's just presume that it's ALL point sparring and Olympic style sparring and that they never, never, ever focus on Self Defense. If the competitors are earning rank in a way that is consistent within the style AND they are learning skills which allow them to be competitive with students from other schools AND they are happy AND their parents are happy AND the school owner is making a decent living, who gives a damn whether it meets someone else's arbitrary standards for what a martial art should be? (sorry for the run on sentence. )

So, that being said, the quality of the instruction and the qualifications of the instructor are independent of the business model.

To give an example, I know of some BJJ schools that are wildly successful and operate using what I would consider McDojo style business practices. I don't have any problems with it, and I wouldn't have any reservations at all recommending the instructors or the schools to a friend interested in BJJ. The owners are very good technicians and excellent coaches. They want to make a living doing what they love. More power to them, I say.

Conversely, I know a guy who isn't a McDojo, but who basically bought a black belt from a legit BJJ black belt. He runs a moderately successful school financially, but I'd never recommend him, because I question his integrity and also have reservations about the quality of his instruction.

Hmm, i think I see where my objection comes from..a difference in how we define McDojo. My definition for it is that it must have 2 things: focused on making money rather than helping students, and 2: teaching incorrect/useless/bad technique or ways of thinking without being too bothered, so long as they get their money. You seem to have just the 1st part of my definition, minus possibly the 'rather than helping students' part. With that definition, I take back my objection.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Hmm, i think I see where my objection comes from..a difference in how we define McDojo. My definition for it is that it must have 2 things: focused on making money rather than helping students, and 2: teaching incorrect/useless/bad technique or ways of thinking without being too bothered, so long as they get their money. You seem to have just the 1st part of my definition, minus possibly the 'rather than helping students' part. With that definition, I take back my objection.

I think that the majority of "mcdojangs " are not focused on money rather than helping students, but sincerely want to and think they are going both. For the second point, I believe this often comes from people teaching (especially on their own) before they should be. Another thing that happens in these situations is the unprepared instructor spends all their time teaching and little to no time on further training/education. A further problem is that these people often don't know that they don't know.

 

[Steve]

Hmm, i think I see where my objection comes from..a difference in how we define McDojo. My definition for it is that it must have 2 things: focused on making money rather than helping students, and 2: teaching incorrect/useless/bad technique or ways of thinking without being too bothered, so long as they get their money. You seem to have just the 1st part of my definition, minus possibly the 'rather than helping students' part. With that definition, I take back my objection.

I guess I don't see McDonald's as being malicious. As I said before, you know exactly what you are getting when you order a Big Mac or a quarter pounder with cheese.


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[ralphmcpherson]

So using the mcdonalds analogy, does that mean a school has to be part of a chain/franchise to be considered a mcdojo? Can the small school down the road with twenty students be a mcdojo? By soley determining a mcdojo by its "business plan", then I train at a mcdojo, and I can asdure you that from most people's perspective the club I train at is about as far from a mcdojo as you will get.

 

[Cyriacus]

I guess now would be a bad time to just comment that i, personally, dont like McDonalds food. :uhyeah:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I guess now would be a bad time to just comment that i, personally, dont like McDonalds food. :uhyeah:

I feel the same way and havent eaten mcdonalds in nearly ten years. The word mcdonalds gives of connotations of cheap, poor quality, fast, etc , when I hear the term mcdojo I associate the term with cheap n' nasty not a "business model".

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't begrudge a school owner a decent living. It's very possible for a school owner to make money AND have quality instruction. What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction. It may or may not be good training. McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.

It's a weird disconnect on this board, where many (most?) of the posters lean conservative, and in all other areas would champion capitalism and the right of a small business to make as much money as possible. But where martial arts are concerned, we tend to equate financial success with sub-par training. I don't agree. I think that sub-par training is a different animal entirely.

I agree that there is a weird disconnect when it comes to Mcdojos and the martial arts industry in general. They really are just a reflection of the free market. That said, I think "sub-par" is a bit too judgmental. Mcdojos provide a service to people who want the product. If it was "sub-par" for their needs, they wouldn't buy it.

A Mcdojo is sub-par for my needs in training, but i can't begrudge a bunch of five year old just because they aren't learning sayoc knife technique. I hope they just have fun and have a good experience of the martial art. I don't even care if they get a black belt.

Imagine how many students a more rigorous trainer could pick up simply by taking themselves a little less seriously and marketing to the mobs of people who get inspired in belt factories? Relatedly, look at what Rorian Gracie did. Look at how many people got their start in a Mcdojo and switch over to that business model...er I meant art...or maybe there simply isn't a distinction.

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree that there is a weird disconnect when it comes to Mcdojos and the martial arts industry in general. They really are just a reflection of the free market. That said, I think "sub-par" is a bit too judgmental. Mcdojos provide a service to people who want the product. If it was "sub-par" for their needs, they wouldn't buy it.

A Mcdojo is sub-par for my needs in training, but i can't begrudge a bunch of five year old just because they aren't learning sayoc knife technique. I hope they just have fun and have a good experience of the martial art. I don't even care if they get a black belt.

Imagine how many students a more rigorous trainer could pick up simply by taking themselves a little less seriously and marketing to the mobs of people who get inspired in belt factories? Relatedly, look at what Rorian Gracie did. Look at how many people got their start in a Mcdojo and switch over to that business model...er I meant art...or maybe there simply isn't a distinction.

Id argue that McDojos are subpar. And that some people want subpar. Mouldy bread doesnt get less mouldy just because you like the taste, or youre using it for cooking.

 

[Makalakumu]

Id argue that McDojos are subpar. And that some people want subpar. Mouldy bread doesnt get less mouldy just because you like the taste, or youre using it for cooking.

For a mom who wants to help their kid to be a ninja and wants him to play tag sparring because she's afraid for him, Mcdojo training is perfect. It is not sub-par for their needs at all.

 

[Cyriacus]

For a mom who wants to help their kid to be a ninja and wants him to play tag sparring because she's afraid for him, Mcdojo training is perfect. It is not sub-par for their needs at all.

Hence my analogy at the end. You can use moulded bread in a variety of good recipes and meals. Its still mouldy. It just isnt a bad thing in that context.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

For a mom who wants to help their kid to be a ninja and wants him to play tag sparring because she's afraid for him, Mcdojo training is perfect. It is not sub-par for their needs at all.

does "tag sparring" or non contact sparring equate to a mcdojo? what about arts that dont do full contact, or dont do full contact until after black belt, such as the majority of shotokan schools, does that make them mcdojos?

 

[Cyriacus]

does "tag sparring" or non contact sparring equate to a mcdojo? what about arts that dont do full contact, or dont do full contact until after black belt, such as the majority of shotokan schools, does that make them mcdojos?

Well, the majority of Shotokan schools arent exactly training people up specifically for sparring as the core expression of their skills, like Boxing does for instance.
At least, not as far as i know. Correct me if im wrong

EDIT: Im not sure i communicated that too clearly. In Boxing, you learn a bunch of skills which are directly expressed in sparring, and sparring becomes a measure of your skill. Shotokan has a bunch of other stuff as well, other than sparring. Therefore, if the sole expression of your skills is sparring, and that sparring is weak and ineffective, its poor sparring. That doesnt mean it isnt exactly what someone wants. In some other systems, sparring is a tool to learn other skills. Shotokan, prior to black belt, is semi contact i believe? So, there is contact being made? If so, i see no issue personally.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd. This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful. It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume.

 

[granfire]

Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd. This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful. It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume.

Interesting.

The myth of the black cloth continues....

 

[Gorilla]

Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd. This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful. It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume.

How old will your daughter be when she gets he BB?

 

[Steve]

So using the mcdonalds analogy, does that mean a school has to be part of a chain/franchise to be considered a mcdojo? Can the small school down the road with twenty students be a mcdojo? By soley determining a mcdojo by its "business plan", then I train at a mcdojo, and I can asdure you that from most people's perspective the club I train at is about as far from a mcdojo as you will get.

I would say that a small school using a particular business plan that would include growth via franchise could be a mcdojo. I mean, that's a part of it. Right?

Ultimately, what I'm suggesting is that we distinguish between a business model and fraud. In the other McDojo thread (no, not that one... the other one... do we have too many threads on the same topic right now?) someone posted an ad where you could be a "native kenpo" black belt for the low, low price of $1280 or so. That's not a McDojo to me. That's a con.

The MA specific business practices that I think are indicative of a McDojo include franchising, usually by encouraging (strongly encouraging) senior students to teach for free in the hopes that they can someday open their own affiliate school. Other traits would be contracts, strong emphasis on getting mom and dad to train because junior likes it, an emphasis on kids programs, charging for belt promotions, which are compulsory and regularly scheduled... this sort of thing. Some is a little sleazier than others.

One I saw and thought was pretty slimy was where the "Master" (ie, the owner of the school) didn't teach regular classes. No, when he taught, it was outside of the regular schedule and was called a "seminar." And the seminar was mandatory (or strongly suggested) and also cost more money. And they happened every month.

 

[Steve]

does "tag sparring" or non contact sparring equate to a mcdojo? what about arts that dont do full contact, or dont do full contact until after black belt, such as the majority of shotokan schools, does that make them mcdojos?

I've seen BJJ schools that I would deem McDojo. They spar, have great instruction and "churn" out world champions. The organization is called Gracie Barra. I have nothing but respect for the GB instructors I know in this area. But the business model is McDojo. And it's helped them become the largest and most powerful affiliation in BJJ.