Martial Arts and Physical Fitness

[Colin_Linz]

I think the founders were (originally and in the Budo arts) striving to train warriors in martial skills. I would think physical condition was a given.

I think you may be confusing budo with Bujutsu. Budo, while training in self defence, is also a form of Gyo, or spiritual development. Budo literally means the path to ending conflict. Bu means to stop two spears, while do means way or path. There is no concern for the development of a warrior, just self defence and self development.



As has been mentioned ideas of fitness may vary and different arts place more or less emphasis on physical attributes. Some arts you would be lucky to break into a sweat.

 

[Tgace]

Good points..nothing I can disagree with there.

 

[The Kai]

Unless your martial arts involves sitting in a meditation posture and nothing else, there is a element of sport, or atheletism to it! Being in shape helps. I think that a certain physicallness (I not saying ripped and tipped) is expected.

Kyudo was thrown out as a example-well target shooting is a olympic sport? And there is even less movement in shooting then archery(actually for that matter achery itself is an olympic sport). Physically you are doing a sport, the applications and intensity are determined by your mind set.
Todd

 

[7starmantis]

I haven't read this entire thread, but alot of people seem to be saying self defense and being in shape are seperate. That there are sports reasons to be in shape, but then self defense doesn't require that. The truth is that to defend yourself you are going to have to be in shape. Sure there are differing degrees of being in shape, but there are also differing degrees of skill and abilities. I would think being more able to defend yoruself would also be related to being in better shape.

7sm

 

[Colin_Linz]

I haven't read this entire thread, but alot of people seem to be saying self defense and being in shape are seperate. That there are sports reasons to be in shape, but then self defense doesn't require that. The truth is that to defend yourself you are going to have to be in shape. Sure there are differing degrees of being in shape, but there are also differing degrees of skill and abilities. I would think being more able to defend yoruself would also be related to being in better shape.

7sm

Not necessarily, some arts like Aikido, would suffer from someone doing lots of physical fitness training. They tend to make you more reliant on physical strength. Aikido, and indeed our Juho require a much more subtle skill set. You need to be able to feel the intent of the attacker, you need to be able to feel his balance and you need the knack of applying the technique.



Even in Goho there is still some elements to this. I have seen Aosaka sensei, who I believe is around mid 50’s completely dominate Busen students in randori. Now these guys are in there mid 20’s, they have been living and training at our Hombu in Tadotsu for three years, training every day, eight hours a day, they are very good. Aosaka can do this not because his is fitter than them, but because he knows what they are going to do, sometimes before they even do it, and can counter effortlessly. His techniques are fast, but not because he is fit and fast, but because he can read you and his counters catch you out. This makes him appear very fast.



Now you could argue that this is a form of fitness, and to some extent it is, but it is not the fitness that you are talking about, and you won’t get it from fitness training.



If you are going to say that because you are moving it is fitness, and therefore a form of sport, then everything we do is a form of sport and fitness training.

 

[Tgace]

The benefits of being physically fit far outweigh the danger of "hurting your Aikido technique" IMHO.

This discussion can run the risk of appearing to be an excuse or justification for poor physical condition if taken to the extreme (not that anybody here is doing that). A "I may be fat but I can still kick your butt" thing. Exercise because its good for your health, it is good for your self esteem and it helps any physical performance.

 

[Colin_Linz]

We should also be realistic. As I’ve said before, I enjoy being fit and advocate a healthy lifestyle. But this isn’t what we are discussing. We are discussing the need to be fit to be a martial artist. When we view the spectrum of martial arts it is clear that the needs vary greatly depending on the type studied. It is also clear (at least for me) that there are some great martial artists out there that would only be considered of average fitness, I have trained under a number of them in Japan.

From a self-defence issue we need to be clear on our understanding of the different energy systems of the body, and be realistic about the systems used. You will not be defending yourself at an aerobic level, it will be anaerobic. No matter how fit you are you won’t last long. What will cause you to succeed or not will be your application of technique. With some arts you will need to strong to apply the technique other arts it a matter of skill.

 

[7starmantis]

Not necessarily, some arts like Aikido, would suffer from someone doing lots of physical fitness training. They tend to make you more reliant on physical strength. Aikido, and indeed our Juho require a much more subtle skill set. You need to be able to feel the intent of the attacker, you need to be able to feel his balance and you need the knack of applying the technique.

You could add 7* mantis kung fu to that list, or any variety of Taiji, but your connection between lots of physical fitness training and the suffering of technique is weak at best. Your technique doesn't suffer from mere physical fitness training unless you are neglecting the other parts of your training. If you spend time developing feel and learning to steal your opponents center, your physical fitness training doesn't hinder that, it only makes it better. To yield and move, and make your body do certain things is relative to your physical fitness. Thus being in better physical "shape" while "feel" being equal gives you the advantage.

From a self-defence issue we need to be clear on our understanding of the different energy systems of the body, and be realistic about the systems used. You will not be defending yourself at an aerobic level, it will be anaerobic. No matter how fit you are you won’t last long. What will cause you to succeed or not will be your application of technique. With some arts you will need to strong to apply the technique other arts it a matter of skill.

You make good points, but you are leaving some out. How long you "last" is most deffinitely related to your physical fitness. We actually train hard to be able to "outlast" others. Your statement about no matter your fitness you wont last long, is incorrect. Your fitness determines how long you last. Strength is not neccessarily what we are talking about either. Application of technique only goes smoother and quicker with better physical fitness. One does not detriment the other.

7sm

 

[terryl965]

Physical fitness does not mean how long you can last in a stituation, endurance and preservation makes you last longer and good oh will power. I have seen alot of physical fit guy's and girl's that could not last a minute in a match, let alone in a real fight. Please, I believe in Physical fitness but do not compare P.F. to being able to handle yourself, the two are totally different. Not trying to ruffle feathers but some people think because they are P.F. they can take on the world a glass jaw is a glass jar no-matter how fit you are.

Terry Lee Stoker

Twin-Dragons

 

[Tgace]

Yes, but where does "endurance" come from? Theres the mental aspect, I agree. But the brain cant write checks the body cant cash. If you dont end it in the first few seconds (which can happen) you better be as fit as your lifestyle allows....I dont think anybody is saying "if you dont jog, lift weights and workout daily you are going to loose". I think theyre saying fitness could be the advantage that makes the difference, dont minimize or ignore it.

 

[7starmantis]

Tgace, right.

Terry, your not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about not getting knocked out because your more physically fit (which that can help) but being able to fight longer. Endurance like Tgace said. You can train your endurance to be at a higher level than others. If the fight doesn't end in the first few seconds (which is really your goal) then your endurance is most deffinitely going to play a major role.

7sm

 

[The Kai]

What about preventing injury??


If you don't think the founders of the arts were concerned with fitness, read the stories of the swordmans that ran thru snowdrift to build up there leg strenght. the founder of Aikido was reportly a strong young man, Judaka that trained hard for hours. If your life depended on your sword arm would not it be strong and skilled?
IMHO sometimes we see the end result of a lifetime of hard training and forget the process of a lifetime of hard training. Most of the examples of "effortless older practioners" were guys that trained hard when they were young!

Is not Budo about improving yourself?? Not just mentally but physically?
Besides mindset, what differs Budo from sport? From competition?
Todd

 

[terryl965]

Yes, but where does "endurance" come from? Theres the mental aspect, I agree. But the brain cant write checks the body cant cash. If you dont end it in the first few seconds (which can happen) you better be as fit as your lifestyle allows....I dont think anybody is saying "if you dont jog, lift weights and workout daily you are going to loose". I think theyre saying fitness could be the advantage that makes the difference, dont minimize or ignore it.

Yes I totally agree with you and I believe in P.F. all I'm saying is P.F. is not the means to the end result,

 

[Danjo]

I aspire to be in the same shape as other martial arts greats.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes I totally agree with you and I believe in P.F. all I'm saying is P.F. is not the means to the end result,

Actually I think it is, at least one of the means to the end result. I dont think there is simply one thing that is the means to the end result, it is a combination of things that include physical fitness training.

JHMO,
7sm

 

[Colin_Linz]

You could add 7* mantis kung fu to that list, or any variety of Taiji, but your connection between lots of physical fitness training and the suffering of technique is weak at best. Your technique doesn't suffer from mere physical fitness training unless you are neglecting the other parts of your training. If you spend time developing feel and learning to steal your opponents center, your physical fitness training doesn't hinder that, it only makes it better. To yield and move, and make your body do certain things is relative to your physical fitness. Thus being in better physical "shape" while "feel" being equal gives you the advantage.
[/color]
You make good points, but you are leaving some out. How long you "last" is most deffinitely related to your physical fitness. We actually train hard to be able to "outlast" others. Your statement about no matter your fitness you wont last long, is incorrect. Your fitness determines how long you last. Strength is not neccessarily what we are talking about either. Application of technique only goes smoother and quicker with better physical fitness. One does not detriment the other.

7sm

You will find that many of the great masters of the internal arts express this concern with overly physical training. It may not be your belief, but I have seen a number of people suffer because of it.



Yes you can lift your aerobic threshold, and in some cases quite high. I have already mentioned a particular world class cyclists data on his heart rate over a 20 kilometre time trial, he was staying over 200 bpm the whole way. This would kill many other athletes. This is still different to a self-defence issue, while he could pace himself and sit at his aerobic threshold someone in a real defensive position will not. As for the length of time in operation within the anaerobic energy system I think you will find that it won’t be a large difference between an elite sprint athlete or an average athlete, or person. The telling difference is in recovery time. This is why I say that the technique and application will be the main factor.

 

[Colin_Linz]

What about preventing injury??


If you don't think the founders of the arts were concerned with fitness, read the stories of the swordmans that ran thru snowdrift to build up there leg strenght. the founder of Aikido was reportly a strong young man, Judaka that trained hard for hours. If your life depended on your sword arm would not it be strong and skilled?
IMHO sometimes we see the end result of a lifetime of hard training and forget the process of a lifetime of hard training. Most of the examples of "effortless older practioners" were guys that trained hard when they were young!

Is not Budo about improving yourself?? Not just mentally but physically?
Besides mindset, what differs Budo from sport? From competition?
Todd

Some good points. Some of these arts do require great fitness. Judo, being a sport does require a high fitness level, in fact even as an art it requires quite a lot of strength and fitness. Ueshiba was in fact a very weak and sickly youth. It was his training in martial arts that gave him his strength; however this is a little different when considering Aikido. His earlier arts were all battlefield arts and quite physical. His creation of Aikido was quite different to these. Even when he was old and not so fit he could withstand the force of powerful men, this wasn’t to do with his fitness but rather his technical knowledge of human dynamics.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Sorry I forgot to answer your last couple off questions.

Budo is about developing strong spirts and character development. In Shorinji Kempo we use the phrase Ken Zen ichinyo. This means that the mind and body should be developed with equal consideration. Health is an offshoot of the training, but fitness levels will vary greatly depending on what you are studying. I’m only saying it is not necessary to be more than of average fitness to be considered a martial artist, as the arts and there requirements vary so much.

On Budo. Budo is considered a very serious thing, it should not be thought of as lightly as playing a sport. Indeed many Budoka in Japan would be very offended to be described that way. Budo is not about competing, winning, or losing, even in a real fight. It is putting in your best effort, applying yourself to the full and examining yourself honestly and taking steps to improve yourself. It’s not about winning, but rather not losing and not giving up.

 

[Colin_Linz]

I haven't read this entire thread, but alot of people seem to be saying self defense and being in shape are seperate. That there are sports reasons to be in shape, but then self defense doesn't require that. The truth is that to defend yourself you are going to have to be in shape. Sure there are differing degrees of being in shape, but there are also differing degrees of skill and abilities. I would think being more able to defend yoruself would also be related to being in better shape.

7sm

The question originally asked was it necessary to be fit to be called a martial artist. Now fitness hasn’t been defined, but in the context of fitness within this discussion it is clearly not necessary to be a martial artist.



Take a step back and examine the range of martial arts and their fitness levels needed, they are quite diverse. They range from almost sedentary to highly physical. Take a look at some of the greatest exponents of martial arts and honestly look at their fitness. I know of and trained under a number from Japan that could be described as of average fitness, but how I wish I had their skills and abilities, every thing they do is just effortless. Now these guys would be considered to be some of the best martial artists in Japan. They are definitely martial artist, yet they would not fit the model of fitness within this thread.



I think the differing view points on fitness are a result of the different paradigms of martial arts within the west and east. The west lumps all martial arts together as martial arts, and has a strong sporting element. In Japan (I reference Japan because it I’m familiar with it, and not other eastern countries) they break them down. They call sporting arts Kakutougi, Battle field arts Bujutsu, and arts that are designed for self-defence and personnel development as Budo. They are very clearly separated by their intent.

 

[7starmantis]

You will find that many of the great masters of the internal arts express this concern with overly physical training. It may not be your belief, but I have seen a number of people suffer because of it.

Your idea of masters and mine may vary quite a bit. I've never heard anyone of great skill express concern over physical fitness. In fact, quite the opposite, most will tell you that their level of skill could be quite higher if they had a much higher level of physical fitness. And I have been in contact with many "internal" martial artis "masters". I think the problem we are having is that your talking about focusing solely on fitness, while I am speaking of fitness being only one part to your training.

As for the length of time in operation within the anaerobic energy system I think you will find that it won’t be a large difference between an elite sprint athlete or an average athlete, or person. The telling difference is in recovery time. This is why I say that the technique and application will be the main factor.

That may be true, but I'm not referring to an elite sprint athlete, but someone who actively trains in this type of fitness. This includes adrenaline dump, anaerobic exercise, and burst training. Recovery time can be increased by training. I agree that your skill is the main factor, but if you are up against someone of good skill, your endurance and "recovery time" will most deffinitely be a huge factor. One of our students is an agent with the FBI and they actually teach agents to simply avoid and withdraw from an initial attack for only 30 seconds when the attacker is worn out and out of "fuel". While that may not be 100% it is the norm in their line of work. Once someone is tired or worn out, skill becomes much less of a factor.

The question originally asked was it necessary to be fit to be called a martial artist. Now fitness hasn’t been defined, but in the context of fitness within this discussion it is clearly not necessary to be a martial artist.

Its not neccessary to have talent to be a painter either, but the problem comes when we define what type of martial artist we want to be.

Take a step back and examine the range of martial arts and their fitness levels needed, they are quite diverse. They range from almost sedentary to highly physical. Take a look at some of the greatest exponents of martial arts and honestly look at their fitness. I know of and trained under a number from Japan that could be described as of average fitness, but how I wish I had their skills and abilities, every thing they do is just effortless. Now these guys would be considered to be some of the best martial artists in Japan. They are definitely martial artist, yet they would not fit the model of fitness within this thread.

I simply dont agree. I know of and have trained under some very highly skilled CMAist who were also of what would be called average, or even below average fitness. They were effortless and amazing, but all of them 100% said that being in better physical condition or shape would only increase their abilities. Its ridiculous to think that being in better shape or fitness will hinder your skill, only if you ignore your skill while trying to get better fitness. If both progress at the same speed, your not hindering your skill. Most of these "out of shape" martial artist were once in great shape, and will tell you that fitness only increases the ability and effectivness of skill.


7sm