A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[Finlay]

In MA training, you use:

- partner drills to "develop" your MA skill.
- sparring/wrestling to "test" your MA skill.
- solo drills/forms to "polish" your MA skill.
- weight equipment training to "enhance" your MA skill.

The single head can enhance your leg lifting throw when training partner is not available.

Have to say that is one of the nicest exercises I have seen in a long time

 

[Hyoho]

Have to say that is one of the nicest exercises I have seen in a long time

Dont forget time. As long as you overuse any ability in an imature way you will never actually get it. Some things come with age.

 

[punisher73]

Increase Your Fast-Twitch Potential With Isometrics

An article that cites a sports science journal about using isometrics over plyometrics to increase speed.

You also DO build fast twitch muscles and get faster, because the muscle recruit at a faster rate as a couple other people pointed out by lifting very heavy weights (relative to the individual) as quickly as you can, which when the weight is heavy will still be a relatively slow movement.

 

[Buka]

I’ve done the same thing, only using a Smith machine. Weight goes up as fast as you want it to, but doesn’t come back down fast. The first few times were pretty scary though; it took some trust in a machine not failing.

I had to look up what a Smith machine was. I've used them, but never knew what they were called.

Yes, I found it odd the first time. Or anytime I changed the weight and started another set. Great machine for when you're tuckered out but still want to squat.

 

[JR 137]

I had to look up what a Smith machine was. I've used them, but never knew what they were called.

Yes, I found it odd the first time. Or anytime I changed the weight and started another set. Great machine for when you're tuckered out but still want to squat.

Or great for rolling a bench in and bench pressing when you don’t have a spotter. Or your spotter can’t possibly lift the amount of weight you’re lifting off of you. The only downside is it’s straight up and down motion vs the natural arching motion you’d follow with a barbell or dumbbells.

The first time I did the plyo benchpress (throwing it in the air) on a smith machine, I had about 175 lbs on it. All I could think was “God I hope this machine works right!!!”

 

[Buka]

Or great for rolling a bench in and bench pressing when you don’t have a spotter. Or your spotter can’t possibly lift the amount of weight you’re lifting off of you. The only downside is it’s straight up and down motion vs the natural arching motion you’d follow with a barbell or dumbbells.

The first time I did the plyo benchpress (throwing it in the air) on a smith machine, I had about 175 lbs on it. All I could think was “God I hope this machine works right!!!”

Never once thought of it for benching when not having a spotter. That's a real good tip.

Yeah, the first time letting it go on a plyo bench is a little bit of an uh oh moment.

 

[Finlay]

Increase Your Fast-Twitch Potential With Isometrics

An article that cites a sports science journal about using isometrics over plyometrics to increase speed.

You also DO build fast twitch muscles and get faster, because the muscle recruit at a faster rate as a couple other people pointed out by lifting very heavy weights (relative to the individual) as quickly as you can, which when the weight is heavy will still be a relatively slow movement.

Yes exactly this. Heavy weights will increase speed. If you think if speed as explosiveness, then going from relaxed to high tension quickly will help this.

Lifting heavy weights quickly teaches exactly that.

 

[jobo]

Increase Your Fast-Twitch Potential With Isometrics

An article that cites a sports science journal about using isometrics over plyometrics to increase speed.

You also DO build fast twitch muscles and get faster, because the muscle recruit at a faster rate as a couple other people pointed out by lifting very heavy weights (relative to the individual) as quickly as you can, which when the weight is heavy will still be a relatively slow movement.

the very first paragraph in that says...... Isometrics are a useful addition to speed training. not that isometrics ARE the speed training. Just that they develop the fast twitch fibres, you still need to practise moving fast!!!!!.

the case that they are kinder to the body is somewhat debatable, isometrics put a massive strain on you, particularly your heart and cns, which is one of the reasons they ar so effective at stimulating muscle development, but they are of course lacking in the eccentric movement, and full range of movement, so are ultimately lacking in development potential.

I'm not aware of any sports that require fast movement, which is most of them, where they don't bother to train moving fast, are you?

 

[punisher73]

the very first paragraph in that says...... Isometrics are a useful addition to speed training. not that isometrics ARE the speed training. Just that they develop the fast twitch fibres, you still need to practise moving fast!!!!!.

the case that they are kinder to the body is somewhat debatable, isometrics put a massive strain on you, particularly your heart and cns, which is one of the reasons they ar so effective at stimulating muscle development, but they are of course lacking in the eccentric movement, and full range of movement, so are ultimately lacking in development potential.

I'm not aware of any sports that require fast movement, which is most of them, where they don't bother to train moving fast, are you?

Ummm, not sure where you are pulling that out of. That had nothing to do with my post. People were disagreeing with the fact that heavy lifts will increase speed and fast twitch muscles due to the slow nature of the lift (can't do both heavy and fast at the same time). The first sentence of my post talked about isometrics in relation to ploymetrics (no movement at all, very similar to a max lift and ploymetrics, a very fast movement).

Saying you need to "practice moving fast" doesn't mean anything at all in a training strategy if you are only talking about speed training. What does that mean? What training protocol are you employing? How do you quantify that to show improvement? Which AGAIN is THE WHOLE POINT of this thread. Why is there so many opinions about "proper training" when it comes to martial arts and physical fitness. There are different ways to do it and many of those ways have no research backing, only anecdotal evidence that it is effective (punching with light weights actually increases punching speed or running lots of miles conditions you for boxing rounds, etc. etc.)

 

[jobo]

Ummm, not sure where you are pulling that out of. That had nothing to do with my post. People were disagreeing with the fact that heavy lifts will increase speed and fast twitch muscles due to the slow nature of the lift (can't do both heavy and fast at the same time). The first sentence of my post talked about isometrics in relation to ploymetrics (no movement at all, very similar to a max lift and ploymetrics, a very fast movement).

Saying you need to "practice moving fast" doesn't mean anything at all in a training strategy if you are only talking about speed training. What does that mean? What training protocol are you employing? How do you quantify that to show improvement? Which AGAIN is THE WHOLE POINT of this thread. Why is there so many opinions about "proper training" when it comes to martial arts and physical fitness. There are different ways to do it and many of those ways have no research backing, only anecdotal evidence that it is effective (punching with light weights actually increases punching speed or running lots of miles conditions you for boxing rounds, etc. etc.)

I'm disagreeing with your interpretation that article and to some extent the article its self.

no movement at all is NOT similar to heavy slow movement, not similar at all, as one has movement and one has NONE. They couldnt actually be more different

 

[punisher73]

I'm disagreeing with your interpretation that article and to some extent the article its self.

no movement at all is NOT similar to heavy slow movement, not similar at all, as one has movement and one has NONE. They couldnt actually be more different

On the surface you are correct. Once again, nitpicking instead of looking at the two on a complete physiological basis.

I'm disagreeing with your interpretation that article and to some extent the article its self.

no movement at all is NOT similar to heavy slow movement, not similar at all, as one has movement and one has NONE. They couldnt actually be more different

Yep, on the surface not looking at anything happening neurologically and physiologically you are quite right. You again are missing key points in an effort just to disagree.

The following is an exclusive excerpt from the book Strength Training, Second Edition, published by Human Kinetics.

Periodization of training is based on the principles stated previously—that different loads (light, moderate, or heavy) or power requirements recruit different types and numbers of motor units. On a light training day, you would allow some muscle fibers to rest by recruiting fewer of them than on a heavy training day. For example, if your maximal lift (1RM) for one dumbbell biceps curl is 100 pounds (45.4 kg), then 10 pounds (4.5 kg) of resistance represents only about 10 percent of your maximal strength in the biceps curl exercise. Performing 15 repetitions of the dumbbell biceps curl with 10 pounds would activate only a small number of your motor units in the biceps. Conversely, performing a biceps curl with 100 pounds would require all of the available motor units.

The size principle’s order of recruitment ensures that low-threshold motor units are predominantly recruited to perform lower-intensity, long-duration (endurance) activities, whereas the higher-threshold motor units are used only to produce higher levels of force or power. This helps delay fatigue during submaximal muscle actions because the high activation threshold for the highly fatigable Type II motor units is not reached unless high levels of force or power are needed; instead, mainly the lower-threshold, fatigue-resistible Type I motor units are recruited. In conjunction, higher-threshold motor units will be recruited only when enough total work has been performed to dramatically reduce the glycogen stores in the lower-threshold motor units. However, this typically has not been observed with resistance exercise because the activity does not tend to reduce muscle glycogen stores significantly. When force production needs are low to moderate, motor units can be alternately recruited to meet the force demands (asynchronous recruitment). This means that a motor unit may be recruited during most of the first repetition of a set with a light weight and then not (or only minimally) recruited during the second repetition. This ability to rest motor units when submaximal force is needed also helps to delay fatigue. When velocities are very slow and loads are very light—as in super-slow training—this type of recruitment may predominate during the exercise, leaving many muscle fibers not stimulated and thus primarily promoting endurance.

Recruitment order is important from a practical standpoint for several reasons. First, in order to recruit Type II fibers and thus achieve a training effect in these fibers, the exercise must be characterized by heavy loading or demands for high power output. Second, the order of recruitment is fixed for many movements, including resistance exercise; if the body position changes, however, the order of recruitment can also change and different muscle fibers can be recruited (e.g., in a flat vs. an incline bench press).

So, in an isometric you can activate a very large number of muscle fibers to get stronger. The object doesn't move. In a very heavy lift (1-3 reps max) the lift activates a very large number of muscle fibers to get stronger. The difference is that the lift will get you stronger in the complete range of motion of the lift, whereas the isometric only increases strength in the position held. That was my comparision, from a "body" perspective the muscle is being almost completely activated to get stronger, they are very similar in that manner.

 

[jobo]

On the surface you are correct. Once again, nitpicking instead of looking at the two on a complete physiological basis.


Yep, on the surface not looking at anything happening neurologically and physiologically you are quite right. You again are missing key points in an effort just to disagree.



So, in an isometric you can activate a very large number of muscle fibers to get stronger. The object doesn't move. In a very heavy lift (1-3 reps max) the lift activates a very large number of muscle fibers to get stronger. The difference is that the lift will get you stronger in the complete range of motion of the lift, whereas the isometric only increases strength in the position held. That was my comparision, from a "body" perspective the muscle is being almost completely activated to get stronger, they are very similar in that manner.

that's not how isometrics work and why lifting heavy and doing isometrics are not inter changeable, though both have their place in a training program.
iso work mostly through over loading the nervous system and metabolic stress, lifting through damaging the muscle particularly on the eccentric portion.

Iso can make you very strong but only in a limited range of motion.

perhaps you would care to explain how being stronger in a limited range makes you faster.?

that article made no mention of heavy lifting, only you have decided that they are the same as iso.

nor did it say that other speed training wasn't required, you have just assumed that to be so.

what it did suggest is that iso gives the same advantages at pylo ,, which may or may not be true,, but then pylo only uses a very limited range of motion as well, ???

 

[jobo]

Yes exactly this. Heavy weights will increase speed. If you think if speed as explosiveness, then going from relaxed to high tension quickly will help this.

Lifting heavy weights quickly teaches exactly that.

I've argued upteen times on here that building a strengh base is a pre requirement of building an athletic base, but they are not the exact same thing.

at a simple level there is no doubt that lifting( say building up) to 300 lbs means you can lift 100 lbs quicker than you did when you could only lift 100 lbs. In that sense you are now faster than you were at the 100 lbs level

. What's less sure is if that has made any measurable differeranc to the speed you can move an unweighted arm, in say a punch, as throwing a punch has a high level of motor skill in it . It need far more development of th cns, than just being stronger than you were.

it may well have given you the capacity to punch faster, if you then work on the motor skill element, but to suggest that the strengh increase alone has made much difference is just speculation on your part.

as evidence of that short fall, all sports that have a speed eliment in them, spend a great deal of time in training speed elements as well as strengh. soccer players build up their leg muscles. AND run fast. They don't just do heavily weight squats and say " rights that enough for me to out sprint the full back over 20 yards. Because it isnt

 

[Finlay]

Sorry, but I never said that lift heavy is all you need

You can build explosiveness with heavy lifting but then it need to be translated into the required skill, this is the same for all resistance training to aid sports. You build the attributes and then refine then into skill

Maybe I misread one of the posts above but I believe that it was stated that heavy weights are no good for building speed.

This point is incorrect on my opinion and experience

 

[punisher73]

that's not how isometrics work and why lifting heavy and doing isometrics are not inter changeable, though both have their place in a training program.
iso work mostly through over loading the nervous system and metabolic stress, lifting through damaging the muscle particularly on the eccentric portion.

Iso can make you very strong but only in a limited range of motion.

perhaps you would care to explain how being stronger in a limited range makes you faster.?

that article made no mention of heavy lifting, only you have decided that they are the same as iso.

nor did it say that other speed training wasn't required, you have just assumed that to be so.

what it did suggest is that iso gives the same advantages at pylo ,, which may or may not be true,, but then pylo only uses a very limited range of motion as well, ???

You obviously did NOT read the article I just posted. I am done trying to cite research on how the body actually works when all you want to do is argue your point contrary to what the science says. You are picking and choosing PIECES of an argument and setting up strawman arguments with people that aren't even being made.

 

[jobo]

Sorry, but I never said that lift heavy is all you need

You can build explosiveness with heavy lifting but then it need to be translated into the required skill, this is the same for all resistance training to aid sports. You build the attributes and then refine then into skill

Maybe I misread one of the posts above but I believe that it was stated that heavy weights are no good for building speed.

This point is incorrect on my opinion and experience

your just making things up. You said, lifting heavy weight made you fast, you now changed that to explosive, " explosive" is fast movement . You are now saying that fast movement needs skill development. Ergo lifting heavy weights doesn't make you explosive. ? Perhaps you can clarify your position?

 

[jobo]

You obviously did NOT read the article I just posted. I am done trying to cite research on how the body actually works when all you want to do is argue your point contrary to what the science says. You are picking and choosing PIECES of an argument and setting up strawman arguments with people that aren't even being made.

you haven't sited anyresearch,you link to an article that sited a very small quote out of some research and then concluded that the artical is its,self research.
and then miss understood it.????

 

[punisher73]

you haven't sited anyresearch,you link to an article that sited a very small quote out of some research and then concluded that the artical is its,self research.
and then miss understood it.????

Once again did NOT read the 2nd article I posted. I never said that the article was the research. I always stated that the article cited the research giving a person a summary of the research and a place to look at the research oneself if they chose to.

In the 2nd article, it is a textbook and here is a summary of the people who put it together. If you had taken the time to read the quote I posted, you would see that it answered your disagreements.

Written by a team of experts chosen by the NSCA, Strength Training combines the most valuable information with best instruction for proven results:

-Assessing strength to personalize programs
-Incorporating new exercises and equipment for increased intensity
-Increasing muscle mass as well as strength, power, and muscular endurance
-Preventing injuries
-Improving performance

Serving more than 30,000 members from the sport science, athletic, allied health, and fitness industries, the NSCA is the authoritative source on strength training. Now the proven techniques developed by these renowned experts are available to you.

Whether you’re launching a lifting program or fine-tuning a serious training regimen, Strength Training will fill any knowledge void and correct the misconceptions to ensure proper technique, safety, and progressions. Multiple program options for specific machines, free weights, body weight, and other types of apparatus provide the flexibility to tailor your training to personal preferences or needs. It’s the authoritative guide from the world’s authority on strength training.

If you can find better stuff put together about lifting, please let me know because up until this point you repeatedly keep arguing with people and have not ONCE put anything up as far as articles that cite research or the research itself to support your opinion. You keep on misquoting people or picking out a small statements and twisting it.

Since you seem unable to read through the posts or put together any type of legitimate rebuttal other than your opinion in regards to the original topic. I am not going to keep wasting my time.

 

[jobo]

Once again did NOT read the 2nd article I posted. I never said that the article was the research. I always stated that the article cited the research giving a person a summary of the research and a place to look at the research oneself if they chose to.

In the 2nd article, it is a textbook and here is a summary of the people who put it together. If you had taken the time to read the quote I posted, you would see that it answered your disagreements.


If you can find better stuff put together about lifting, please let me know because up until this point you repeatedly keep arguing with people and have not ONCE put anything up as far as articles that cite research or the research itself to support your opinion. You keep on misquoting people or picking out a small statements and twisting it.

Since you seem unable to read through the posts or put together any type of legitimate rebuttal other than your opinion in regards to the original topic. I am not going to keep wasting my time.

????? Your second link is,an ADD to buy a book, how do you a) expect to support your point and b) me to read it. When there is no actual information about anything.

in the bit you have selectively quoted, it says nothing about isometrics and even less about increasing un weighted speed. What do you think it says about these topics?

 

[Finlay]

your just making things up. You said, lifting heavy weight made you fast, you now changed that to explosive, " explosive" is fast movement . You are now saying that fast movement needs skill development. Ergo lifting heavy weights doesn't make you explosive. ? Perhaps you can clarify your position?

Sorry but that is not what is said.

In a previous post I said we could think of speed as explosiveness

I then said heavy lifting, deadlifting for example builds explosiveness. Referring to the attribute

Then in a follow up post, while trying to explain my position. I said that the attribute built from heavy lifting needs to be applied to a skill.

I don' think I even said that all you need to punch fast is heavy lifting. My apologies if it read like that