Martial Arts and Physical Fitness

[Colin_Linz]

7sm,

I think maybe I need to clear something up. I am not saying fitness is not of benefit, it is. What I’m trying to say it is;

1. It is not necessary to be fit to be a martial artist. Your ability may be better if you are fitter, but non-the less you still are a martial artist. This was the original question.

2. Fitness types and levels vary greatly and what one person may describe as fit another may be looking for different attributes. I used the Aikido example because I have heard teachers of this art not recommend weight training, as people tend to get more concerned with physical strength and not technique. I have trained with some very small Japanese kenshi. There techniques are great because they lacked the strength to make a bad technique work. I’m sure if I asked some of our sensei if they thought they would be better if they were fitter, a number would say yes. You would then have to think, well why aren’t you out there running around the block. The reason maybe that their idea of fitness is different yours and in fact they are working on there fitness doing Tai Chi or something.

Out of interest do you remember the Ali Forman fight in Africa? Ali was nowhere near as fit as Forman, but despite it being a sporting match and dependent heavily on cardio fitness and power he beat Forman. Why, because of his technique and application (application also refers to strategy, the way you apply your technique) Ali used your FBI strategy with Forman, all the time talking to him and making him mad so he didn’t realise what Ali was up to.

Unlike the FBI, I doubt that I will have much warning of conflict (if I did I wouldn’t be having the conflict). I will probably be facing more than one opponent, and I doubt that I will have terribly much control over the situation. Thanks for helping in an interesting discussion.

 

[dubljay]

One of Bruce Lee's more noted sayings was: Martial arts is expressing oneself using the human body. (or something remotely close).

In this sense martial arts regardless of style or application is defined on an individual basis. Only the person practicing it can define what it means to them. Whether or not that includes being physically fit or not is a personal matter. I would also like to point out I have seen many martial artists that are physically handicapped yet still practice.


However with martial arts applied to self defense I feel that being physically fit is a distinct advantage. Part of physical training of any kind is learning your limits and learning to pace yourself. Should an engagement last for an extended period of time, know how to pace yourself will help you save energy. This is in addition to having more endurance, speed, and strength. I know of one individual that was well trained in martial arts, but did not maintain their physical fitness, he was in an altercation with an untrained yet very athletic person. He lost simply because he was no match athletically.


-Josh-

 

[7starmantis]

1. It is not necessary to be fit to be a martial artist. Your ability may be better if you are fitter, but non-the less you still are a martial artist. This was the original question.

I just dont agree with you. I guess it depends on your definition of a martial artist. Like I said before, you dont have to be talented or be any good to be a painter, but isn't a true artist someone with talent and passion for painting? It just simply depends on how you define the words martial artist. I guess your right, in order to become a member of a martial arts school you do not need to be fit. Without defining what we are talking about as a martial artist, we wont really go further with the discussion.

7sm

 

[TonyM.]

First speed, then power, then gong.

 

[Danjo]

First speed, then power, then gong.

Then it's on like Donkey Kong!!!

 

[loki09789]

I just dont agree with you. I guess it depends on your definition of a martial artist. Like I said before, you dont have to be talented or be any good to be a painter, but isn't a true artist someone with talent and passion for painting? It just simply depends on how you define the words martial artist. I guess your right, in order to become a member of a martial arts school you do not need to be fit. Without defining what we are talking about as a martial artist, we wont really go further with the discussion.

7sm

You make a good point 7sm, how are people defining 'fit' and 'unfit' in relations to a martial artist?

I would say that if you can't sustain a regular class workout, fatigue puts you at risk of learning bad habits, injury and can be an indicator that you won't have what it takes to take the physiological stress of fight or flight AND be able to perform repeatedly if a fight/self defense situation extends beyond 30 seconds.

Fitness (cardiovascular, muscular, coordination - quickness and agility, balance) all are requirements for high level performance/accomplishment in martial arts.

Consider the fitness focus of our military forces today and contact sports athletes (including football, hockey, boxing, UFC type fighting...).

I would say being able to perform at an above average level the good old Presidential fitness test events from high school would be a good baseline to start from when you are considering fitness for a martial artist. From there, style and training goal requirments will dictate what and how high the standards should be.

 

[Colin_Linz]

You make a good point 7sm, how are people defining 'fit' and 'unfit' in relations to a martial artist?

I would say that if you can't sustain a regular class workout, fatigue puts you at risk of learning bad habits, injury and can be an indicator that you won't have what it takes to take the physiological stress of fight or flight AND be able to perform repeatedly if a fight/self defense situation extends beyond 30 seconds.

Lets work on this as the defenition then. Would you consider a Sumotori a martial artist if he could not last through a boxing class. Clearly he is not a boxer, but is he still a martial artist?

Fitness (cardiovascular, muscular, coordination - quickness and agility, balance) all are requirements for high level performance/accomplishment in martial arts..

Agreed, but the different degrees and focus on these aspects vary greatly within martial arts.

Consider the fitness focus of our military forces today and contact sports athletes (including football, hockey, boxing, UFC type fighting...)..

Why leave out forms of Budo, you have only included forms of Bujutsu and Kakutougi. All of which I'm quite happy to accept require high levels of fitness.

I would say being able to perform at an above average level the good old Presidential fitness test events from high school would be a good baseline to start from when you are considering fitness for a martial artist. From there, style and training goal requirments will dictate what and how high the standards should be.

Sorry I'm unfamiliar with those. We have a sensei named Shigeru Uchiyama He has been awarded the Order of the Sacred Treasure, by the Japanese Government. He is an Executive board member of the Nippon Budokan, The Executive Director of the Japan Martial Arts Council, and an Executive Board Member of Shorinji Kempo. For some reason I don't think this 88 year old Budoka will pass your High School Fitness test. Does this mean he is not a Martial Artist?

 

[Tgace]

Would you say he's more fit than the average 88 yo ?

 

[Colin_Linz]

I just dont agree with you. I guess it depends on your definition of a martial artist. Like I said before, you dont have to be talented or be any good to be a painter, but isn't a true artist someone with talent and passion for painting? It just simply depends on how you define the words martial artist. I guess your right, in order to become a member of a martial arts school you do not need to be fit. Without defining what we are talking about as a martial artist, we wont really go further with the discussion.

7sm

I'm quite happy to accept that given the broad definitions of this discussion that we can all be right. It is what I have been saying all the time in relation to question. Using Internationally recognised Martial Arts as an example, and the broad spectrum of fitness I can only conclude it is not necessary. If you were to pick a particular art form, and comment about the required fitness for it, then the answer to the question may go the other way.



With regards to the painter analogy. Many people educated in art recognise a number of artist as being great. Yet show their paintings to the average person and you get a much different opinion of their artistry.

 

[Colin_Linz]

I agreed to an earlier post regarding Martial Arts all claiming to increase the level of fitness of their practitioners. While reading something written by Ellis Admur of www.ellisamdur.com . An Internationally accredited author on martial arts, and a talented martial artist with a substantial body of experience. Apparently there is an exception to this presumption. Aikido make no claims of physical development, their aim is purely spiritual.

I get the feeling, and I may be wrong. That many people view martial arts as fighting methods, and indeed this can be the case. It should also be noted that under that broad umbrella term we use there are arts that are less concerned with fighting and more concerned with spirituality and personal development. Some of these arts may well fall outside your personal definition of Martial Arts, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are considered martial arts Internationally by experts and the general public.

 

[dubljay]

Colin, I tried to make the distinction in my earlier post, and I agree that martial arts includes more than combative/self defense applications, that have no reflection upon phyiscal fitness.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Would you say he's more fit than the average 88 yo ?

I don’t know he looks like your average 88 year old. Does it matter; I would still call him a martial artist if he were on his deathbed. His level of fitness doesn’t have much bearing on this. He may or may not be a better martial artist if he were fitter, it will depend on what framework you use to measure this, but there is no question as to wether or not he is a martial artist.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Colin, I tried to make the distinction in my earlier post, and I agree that martial arts includes more than combative/self defense applications, that have no reflection upon phyiscal fitness.

I reread your earlier post. I think we share a similar view in relation to the original question. From the self-defence angle, I’m not totally sure that I will be able to pace myself in a real conflict, but if I could better fitness would be of benefit, but this is also true of technique to a greater or lesser degree depending on the style.

 

[RRouuselot]

As part of my job I am required to be a licensed Fitness Trainer, of which I have several qualifications. Therefore I have a bit of knowledge on the subject of fitness, what it is and how to become fit.

Becoming fit is a by product of doing martial arts and in my opinion shouldn’t really be the goal. If someone’s goal is to do martial arts to become fit I can suggest several other more effective methods to accomplish that goal.

What defines fitness? Most Fitness professional people will tell you the following.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Strength = muscle

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Flexibility

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Body composition = how much or how little lard you are lugging around

4)[font=&quot] [/font]Endurance = cardio strength



However, doing any exercise consistently will give you some degree of fitness no matter what it might be.

Sorry I'm unfamiliar with those. We have a sensei named Shigeru Uchiyama He has been awarded the Order of the Sacred Treasure, by the Japanese Government. He is an Executive board member of the Nippon Budokan, The Executive Director of the Japan Martial Arts Council, and an Executive Board Member of Shorinji Kempo. For some reason I don't think this 88 year old Budoka will pass your High School Fitness test. Does this mean he is not a Martial Artist?

My guess is that gentleman probably reached 88 years old as a result of many years of training consistently. Uehara Seikichi lived to be over 100 years old and trained almost daily up until he died. I saw a photo of him when he was about 30 yrs. Old and he look like a Okinawan “Arnie”. He could crush an apple just by giving it a squeeze with 3 fingers. I tried it….it’s not easy.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Hi Robert,

It may very well be why he is still alive. I used him as an example because as much as I respect him and would like to receive instruction from him, I somehow doubted that he would pass the high school fitness test that was offered as a minimum standard of fitness to be a martial artist.

I think I have seen pictures of the sensei you mentioned. I haven’t tried crushing an apple with three fingers, but I think it would be difficult. Would you agree that Karate could rely a lot on power? While Aikido would rely much more on tactile perception, and that the fitness requirements for each of these arts would be very different? If this is the case, then designating a minimum standard of fitness to the title of martial artist is going to be a somewhat challenging task. Personally, as much as enjoy fitness training, I don’t think it is relevant to you being considered a martial artist or not.

I’ve found fitness tests to be overrated in their ability to test for suitability of various tasks. Until 2001 I was in our defence force. I suffered two bad spinal injuries within 12 months of each other, one requiring surgery. I ended up being medically discharged as I was no longer deployable and my condition was pretty bad. The ironic thing about this was that I could still pass the fitness test used to determine deployability.

 

[RRouuselot]

Hi Robert,

1) It may very well be why he is still alive. I used him as an example because as much as I respect him and would like to receive instruction from him, I somehow doubted that he would pass the high school fitness test that was offered as a minimum standard of fitness to be a martial artist.

2) Would you agree that Karate could rely a lot on power?



3) While Aikido would rely much more on tactile perception, and that the fitness requirements for each of these arts would be very different? If this is the case, then designating a minimum standard of fitness to the title of martial artist is going to be a somewhat challenging task. Personally, as much as enjoy fitness training, I don’t think it is relevant to you being considered a martial artist or not.

I’ve found fitness tests to be overrated in their ability to test for suitability of various tasks. Until 2001 I was in our defence force. I suffered two bad spinal injuries within 12 months of each other, one requiring surgery. I ended up being medically discharged as I was no longer deployable and my condition was pretty bad. The ironic thing about this was that I could still pass the fitness test used to determine deployability.

1)When giving a fitness assessment a critical factor is age. Most 80 year olds regardless would never be on the same athletic scale as an 18 year old high school kid. What needs to be done is compare people in their own age group. Which is why I mentioned Mr. Uehara. Compared to other 90~100 year old people he was an Olympic Athlete since most people at his age were bed ridden.

2)If we are talking about “real karate” then no, power is not so important. If we are talking about K-1 type kicking boxing “pseudo karate” then power and stamina are pretty important.

3)Without getting too involved or bogged down in detail “Real karate” is in many ways like Aikido and doesn’t rely so much on strength but using someone else’s weakness’ against them. Having said that I see more fit looking Aikidoka than Karateka. Most karateka I see have a huge gut the cause of which can only be from serious lack of cardio training coupled with poor a diet…..and possibly practicing too many “no touchy KO’s” and not enough punches and kicks. There is a good book on MA training and Fitness called “Going for Black Belt” by Tony Gummerson. It’s a good read for anyone that wants to add to their MA training.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Yes, age is an important consideration, as is the type of art and environment of application.

I can see I need more of an understanding of Karate. I have had the opinion that there was a heavy emphasis on power and fitness from observing some of the training and warm up exercises used. This seemed quite different to the Aikido training I have participated in and observed.

I used to think Karate was quite stiff and robotic until I was invited to Takeada sensei’s 9th Dan grading some years ago, and found that he moved quite differently to the local Karate I had observed here. So I have no doubt that I have some perceptions that are inaccurate.

Regarding fat guts, and I apologise for moving slightly off topic. I love cardio training and until my spinal injuries enjoyed Cycling and Triathlons. Having coached a number of Cyclists and observed others training I believe that weight loss can be more effective with weight training rather than cardio, although once again this maybe just a perception. Another observation is that a number of people with large stomachs otherwise appear normal. I wonder if this is more to do with poor action of the transverse abdominus, as many also seem to have back pain.

 

[RRouuselot]

Regarding fat guts, and I apologise for moving slightly off topic. I love cardio training and until my spinal injuries enjoyed Cycling and Triathlons.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Having coached a number of Cyclists and observed others training I believe that weight loss can be more effective with weight training rather than cardio, although once again this maybe just a perception.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Another observation is that a number of people with large stomachs otherwise appear normal. I wonder if this is more to do with poor action of the transverse abdominus, as many also seem to have back pain.

1) Weight loss…or should I say fat loss is best achieved by doing both weight training and cardio. Weight traing at the beginning of the workout and cardio at the end of it.

To put it in very basic over simplified terms muscles burn glucose (blood sugar) and glucose is burned by lifting weights much faster than doing cardio. In fact, if you do too much cardio you go into what is called gluconeogenesis which is when your glucose storage is low and you start to use protein (muscle) as a fuel….better known as “muscle wasting”. So if you are trying to bulk up don’t do excessive cardio.



2) Weak stomach muscles will cause a “bloated” looking affect but I am talking about too many Krispy Kremes, Super Sized fast food, plain old fashioned FAT. I see more MA people that are over weight than most any other activity.

 

[Makalakumu]

2) Weak stomach muscles will cause a “bloated” looking affect but I am talking about too many Krispy Kremes, Super Sized fast food, plain old fashioned FAT. I see more MA people that are over weight than most any other activity.

And I have sparred with many of these individuals. In most cases, they were defeated not by their lack of technique, but lack of fitness. Even people who are of higher rank (much higher sometimes).

In my arts case and I think that in many other arts, it is impossible to separate fitness from technique. Yes, this applies differently to different people and it also applies differently according to the art, yet I think it is a goal we should strive for.

At cho dan, I think that a student should be well on their way to accomplishing this goal. Therefore, as a martial arts teacher, I have no problems sitting down with a student and setting personal fitness goals that will be part of that persons test for cho dan.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Not only that, but I know numerous individuals in my own organizations, all Master Instructors, who would be classified as out of shape or just plain fat. Why? Because in their mind, Instructor level means they have retired from active practicing to focus more on teaching. For some reason, they think that after 4th Dan, your own technique is not as important as passing along knowledge to your students. Yes, building up your students is important. But what student wants to come to class and be taught by somebody who is obviously slow, out shape, and fat? Doesn't mean you have to be an Olympian in training, or an "Arnold", but becoming an Instructor should not mean you neglect your own training and development.